[PvP suggestion] Consolidation of PvP servers

[Madnath 3,113]

Gonna start this off by saying, let's try and keep this thread to those with an interest in the health of PvP servers and their future. It's all well and good having an opinion, but there's better places to kvetch about PvP issue this, that, dead, fake, never existed. Not the place, we're not interested and you'll hopefully just be ignored.

 

Anyway...

Making this thread since the idea was put somewhere and I frankly cannot find the thread.

In the midst of all the conversation about server health being weird, or in a state of flux because of the massive fragmentation caused by a large number of servers and two clusters, PvP'ers pointed out a similar issue on their end. You're railroaded to either:

1. Chaos if you're on SFI, or Epic (lol)
2. Defiance if you're NFI

It doesn't sound bad until you realise that we're splitting an already smaller community apart for no real reason anymore. Sure, Defiance was great to start with because it was a totally, completely fresh playing field and introduced a new rule set. That's damn good. But now the skill levels are very similar, is there a need for the split? We already have two servers in a fluctuating state of activity, and one cluster dead.

 

Some of us in the PvP community would like a consolidation of the playerbase in order to try and keep activity up. It'd be a lot easier when we have all our people on one place. A higher playercount really means we're more likely to see random activity from roaming, a better contest for HOTA, and a bigger playerbase to pick your side with.

 

This is the place to discuss the idea because really it's gonna be a hot topic with a lot to talk about. Such as, but not limited to:

• Portal or sailing? Maybe both?
• Do we keep Defiance rules? Do we totally abandon them? Do we keep some and ditch others, replace some, add some?
• Raid timers, keep or bin?
• Changes to HOTA mechanics?
• Server composition and setup?

 

I personally prefer the idea of a portal, I feel PvP has the potential to be better when it's less of a commitment for most. I enjoy my time on Chaos with the guys, but I still have dumb Freedom stuff I like and want to do, so sailing over, changing my gear, getting a hellie, gearing it up, the entire thing just feels a massive chore and it honestly makes me want to go to sleep. A portal cuts a lot of that out, but I know it's not a perfect or ideal solution for most. It does have its own drawbacks.

 

Yell away, tell us you miss challenge and want the classic idea of Epic to actually be done this time around or something.

[Atndy 385]

Problem with portals is what you have on defiance. It is a ghost town 99% of the time and if played right you can go from no one in local to 50+ players. Also with portals there is no "Well I don't feel like sailing to freedom today so I guess I'll hunt/woodcut/roam on chaos." The convenience of portals is a double edge sword.

[Davy 408]

Make a single pvp server for N and S Freedom, remove med path and tomes.

[Holar 1,485]

Delete the Epic cluster.

 

Make Chaos full on Freedom like it was when Epic released.

 

Have @Ausimusmake a Chaos sized map.

 

Open all of the map borders bringing NFI and SFI together. 

 

Delete NFI pvp server.

 

Open new PvP Server.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Holar

[Sinnjinn 509]

1 hour ago, Atndy said:

Problem with portals is what you have on defiance. It is a ghost town 99% of the time and if played right you can go from no one in local to 50+ players. Also with portals there is no "Well I don't feel like sailing to freedom today so I guess I'll hunt/woodcut/roam on chaos." The convenience of portals is a double edge sword.

 

You're right this is the drawback of a portal.  The advantage is that it allows a lot more 'casual' people to play and/or try PvP.  And the casual PvPer today can become the hardcore PvPer tomorrow.  The whole purpose of Defiance was to reduce the barrier of entry into PvP, and I think a portal does that.  However, in a similar thread someone (I think Sweet?) had a suggestion that the portal not be instant which I think would be a good middle ground.  Make the portal only usable once an hour, and make it have a delay of 15 or 20 minutes.

 

Also, it's important to remember all of the other things a portal allows.  IMO, one of the great things about Defiance is how it's separate from Freedom.  You cant carry equipment back and forth, and even Affinities are separate.

 

As for everything else:  YES!!!  ONE SERVER TO RULE THEM ALL!!!

 

Keep the Defiance rule set (but to be honest I'm a somewhat new player, never having played on SFI / Chaos)

Turn both Chaos and Defiance into freedom servers

delete Epic

New map for PvP that both SFI and NFI can reach by portal

Edited July 9, 2023 by Sinnjinn

[Muse 2,232]

A PvE player's perspective

 

Due to the transfer of goods both ways, I would say PvP on Chaos is of huge benefit to the Southern Freedom Isles overall.  A lot of PvE players on SFI who have maybe never or seldom set foot in PvP, are still currently benefitting indirectly from PvP activity on Chaos. 

 

Firstly, there is much demand on SFI for PMK collectables.  I am frequently asked if there are PMK flags and banners in Southport market.  Someone asked me last night if I had ANY items because they were desperate to get hold of them. Last night someone asked me if I would accept his two kidneys for a particular wagon he wanted to get hold of. With PMKs such as Capybara (and other new PMKs), I would say SFI demand for PMK memorabilia has never been higher.

 

Secondly, there have long been opportunities for SFI players to contribute (either voluntarily or paid) to the efforts on Chaos.  In the past that has included SFI players producing bulk materials such as dirt and bricks, SFI farmers growing and selling wemp in large quantities, and SFI breeders producing large amounts of horses to be shipped to Chaos for the war effort.  In SFI we see PvP and PvE players working together using the resources on SFI for the war effort in Chaos. 

 

I think to draw a line between PvE and PvP is not straightforward in SFI - because I feel the two are intertwined.  Whilst a portal link can seem easier and more convenient, I think it does not guarantee people will use it.  This is a PvE player's perspective, but I think to remove the physical shipping link between SFI and Chaos (PvE and PVP) would be a great loss to both.

[Lethyria 161]

My perspective as someone that has played on NFI pvp a bit is that the portals are good for recruiting and easing casual people into it. My personal feeling is that we should be keeping barriers to participation in pvp low, and to that end the portals are a great addition. 

 

The disadvantage of portals is an interesting problem, people don't skill on defiance, I think there are perhaps 4 reasons for this

• There is no upside to the risk, I can either run around off deed on a pvp server with a 100+ coc pickaxe or do it on freedom, where my setup can be left untouched for when I next need it
• The "wasted" rare rolls, especially given rare horse gear has no speed benefit it feels better to grind on freedom where you can potentially sell your rares
• The "wasted" affinity rolls, why would I want to get an affinity on defiance when I can get one on freedom that I can't loose
• There is a large market on freedom where you can pick up the odds and ends you don't have available

All that being said there is something nice about having to form a community to be self sufficient on pvp, and needing to find your resources on the server.

 

I know its been a thing for a very long time but I don't think affinities transferring or loss of body str on pvp death are healthy in terms of being a big disincentive to fight, and if they are your freedom affinities a big disincentive to try out pvp.

[Beastwolf 652]

 

 

yea I agree splitting the community needs to be fixed for once.  

 

SFI - CHAOS adds a huge market for people to buy or sell things. Do not remove ability to transfer items to freedom - I hate the other pvp servers cause there is no penalty to dying its throw away gear. No reward ... wooo i got a drake set on a pvp server that doesn't transfer, sac it.

 

EPIC - really has no use and only has population when people just raid scooter and get bored after 30 mins.

 

Defiance -idk

 

 

 

They had an opportunity to close up EPIC with the skill transfers but decided to let that 16 year old dog that's blind / deaf / cant walk .. live.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Beastwolf

[user 608]

I think one pvp server is the only way to make the pvp community grow and thrive. I also believe the only fair thing would be to shut down all the current pvp servers(make Chaos PVE and if you want connect defiance make it also PVE if people are connected to anything over there idk.)

 

Then make a new server without template kingdoms and enable PMKs day one. Take defiance rule set, limit meditation, no tomes, ect. I believe that priesthood should be separate on this server, as priests contribute significantly to PvP but detract from the main focus of PvE, not everyone wants a crafter. I'm pretty firm in the fact that portals takes away a lot of the experience as the loot and resources become irrelivent. Theres a reason on Epic everyone has supreme mm sets and people often do not bother to slay uniques. Also, if you cannot spend the 5 minutes it takes to sail over I do not think you're going to enjoy PvP as most of the time its wondering around for 5 hours to not get a fight. Furthermore, importing items such as dirt, bricks, mortar, etc., from other servers greatly benefits the Freedom economy.

 

A PvP server thats not connected to the Freedom economy won't last a year simple as that.(14 people on defiance lol)

Edited July 9, 2023 by user

[Beastwolf 652]

4 hours ago, Muse said:

A PvE player's perspective

 

Due to the transfer of goods both ways, I would say PvP on Chaos is of huge benefit to the Southern Freedom Isles overall.  A lot of PvE players on SFI who have maybe never or seldom set foot in PvP, are still currently benefitting indirectly from PvP activity on Chaos. 

 

Firstly, there is much demand on SFI for PMK collectables.  I am frequently asked if there are PMK flags and banners in Southport market.  Someone asked me last night if I had ANY items because they were desperate to get hold of them. Last night someone asked me if I would accept his two kidneys for a particular wagon he wanted to get hold of. With PMKs such as Capybara (and other new PMKs), I would say SFI demand for PMK memorabilia has never been higher.

 

Secondly, there have long been opportunities for SFI players to contribute (either voluntarily or paid) to the efforts on Chaos.  In the past that has included SFI players producing bulk materials such as dirt and bricks, SFI farmers growing and selling wemp in large quantities, and SFI breeders producing large amounts of horses to be shipped to Chaos for the war effort.  In SFI we see PvP and PvE players working together using the resources on SFI for the war effort in Chaos. 

 

I think to draw a line between PvE and PvP is not straightforward in SFI - because I feel the two are intertwined.  Whilst a portal link can seem easier and more convenient, I think it does not guarantee people will use it.  This is a PvE player's perspective, but I think to remove the physical shipping link between SFI and Chaos (PvE and PVP) would be a great loss to both.

 

 

^^^^^^^This is a Huge reason to not remove CHAOS as a pvp server or detach it.

 

It's meant to be apart of SFI and sailed to - if anything give people more incentive to be on chaos.

10% more skill gain to players on chaos?    Give people a reason to stay there full time.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Beastwolf

[solmark 546]

When using the portal your faith gets reset to 1 along  with any fight skill, so portals are more convenient but it comes with a cost. If you've invested time on PVE getting your priest to 100 faith and decent fight skill, do you really want to try out PVP and start over?  For the hard core player, getting back to 100 faith and decent FS might not seem that bad,  but if we are trying to attract the casual/semi casual player then I feel there needs to be some sort of incentive to try out PVP,  we shouldn't penalise them.

[Karrde 344]

Doubt it's going to improve anything tbh.

 

Whatever happens... preserve Wilds, or as the kids call it, Chaos. Even as a pve map afterwards.

 

Just far too much history there. Oldest active map. Lots of archeology there. Even Notch had a hand in its crafting and walked its shores.

 

It's a nice, well-designed chunk of land, especially for ships, and already hooked up to Freedom anyways.

[Spacy 659]

Rename Chaos back to wilds.  Make it so that starter towns are only deeds, else it is undeedable; same ruleset as PVE except keep the volcanoes and critters and mycelium.  Safe harbors are few and far between.  Becomes a southern islands hunting ground.  Might need to have guards attack abandoned carts/wagons/etc in the starter towns.  Entire server has decay similar to perm, but perhaps even higher to get rid of all the stuff.

 

Ditto Defiance, except just make it so people can deed there.  Needs another island on northern.

 

Epic gets all the PVP.   Portals can only be done inside active deeds.  Titles carry back through the portals; specifically a title to craft kingdom gear.  Change rules so that skill gains transfer back through the portals, but otherwise keep the curve and all the stuff associated with that (the curve basically means it is better to grind skills on freedom anyways).  Portals go to both norther and southern isles.  Equipment doesn't (just like it currently doesn't).  

[Rocklobster 309]

If there was a portal to one pvp map, I'd go for sure - I'm sure i could convince others to tag along. That's a few people who otherwise won't be active in pvp at all..

 

[Dadadah 74]

We bought 60,000 dirt to make walls.

 

Chaos is contributing to the flattening of SFI servers. This is a good thing, Xanadu is too mountainous anyways. Without Chaos where would all that dirt go? Keep PVP server crossing alive so we may some day see a flat Xanadu.

[wipeout 1,355]

What is this need to destroy chaos with some of you here?

A single disconnected pvp server will not fix pvp in the long run no amount of portals or bonuses or anything will fix it. You might ask why do i think so? Well simple fact a huge chunk of players on nfi and sfi do not want to try out pvp as wurm's combat mechanic is not fun for them and is often seen as a chore or something they want to avoid, next to that without a cluster's economy to back up the kingdoms silver purchases will remain low(remember this is something gcg wants to focus on now) to the point of deed upkeep only and with no value to gear res stones are not needed after all if gear doesnt hold value why waste rl money on them?

Kingdoms on SFI provide a lot to the economy constantly not just from pmk merch but the quantity of bulk they purchase over a lifespan of a kingdom and this silver has to come from somewhere.

I would be for a unified pvp server that is accessible by portal AND boat either with the restriction that sfi toons cant access nfi servers and vise versa or without, i myself would say without tbh as it used to be that to get to mrh from jkh we had to sail over chaos and that was always a risky business but fun to do.

But any kind of pvp server that would be made should have the ability to trade with pve as else silver purchase will remain rather low, next to that what about existing pmk's on chaos? what about existing deeds on defiance? Not everyone is wanting to give up what they have created in what would honestly be a failed attempted at reviving pvp.

For pvp to thrive we need a lot more then a single unified server we need better combat a more skill based less random combat system where stats are made clear so that people dont get agitated and refuse to leave deed because someone walks around with a broken item acting like they are a god for god knows how long.

[Skatyna 443]

Isolate chaos server completely unannounced without previous warning,  preventing any toon/item transfer/escape out of it, then completely wipe it of this Wurm world a week later sacrificing everything on it - characters, items, deeds etc. Reimburse people who will loose everything on chaos sending them an e-mail containing a new char registration link that, if used, will award them 10  fantastic copper coins. Then fully connect Epic to the SFI to compensate freedom players for the lost merchandise chaos provided. 

 

End of the day, there's more people playing Epic than chaos anyways, so lets start reworking these pvp servers closing the biggest (longest travel times, very crap for pvp), oldest (most messed up server with most skilled pvp OP toons) server first. I can guarantee you - all of these "close Epic" chaos players fully support this and give their consent 100% (they understand that closing pvp servers is required to save pvp and are volunteering to make personal sacrifices for the cause). No need to double check with them too.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Skatyna

[user 608]

2 hours ago, Skatyna said:

 

End of the day, there's more people playing Epic than chaos anyways,

?

[Finnn 3,321]

or kill pvp faster.. by merging the two?
Isn't the whole core problem of pvp that groups just weed out any new or smaller groups?

 

A merge wont do much good, basicailly .. connect both cluster's alts of somebody to gank easier? Or share accounts/alts to mow lawns again easier.

 

Skills aren't that even considering sfi had how many vs nfi - how many years of existence? huh? incomparable..

 

Isn't the point of the game - the commitment?

 

If we go for fun quick pvp etc.. should we get a face slap and get real, drop all things which prevent pvE players from pvp-ing and scrap the existing meta pvp in favor for not-another-suacide pvp server merge?

 

Instead of fixing things.. lets expand the issue we have and merge the toxicity, will be easy.. and fun.. until all quit?

[Oblivionnreaver 5,175]

2 hours ago, Finnn said:

Isn't the whole core problem of pvp that groups just weed out any new or smaller groups?

skill requirements time investment split community mainly. people leave, there's no new people to replace them pop goes down, people stop actively playing due to less chance of pvp due to nobody being online. any small groups getting "weeded out" would be from attrition as it's basically impossible to remove someone from the game due to game mechanics highly favouring defending

2 hours ago, Finnn said:

drop all things which prevent pvE players from pvp-ing

the main thing that stops pve players from pvping is a mental barrier

2 hours ago, Finnn said:

Instead of fixing things.. lets expand the issue we have and merge the toxicity, will be easy.. and fun.. until all quit?

if they all quit there'll be less pvp threads for you to concern troll in. pvp is already dead due to near 0 updates since sindusk was in the dev team cant get any deader

[Skatyna 443]

16 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

the main thing that stops pve players from pvping is a mental barrier

 

Its not, its full inventory drop. Been saying that for years.. Experienced players are mag priests, using res stones, too skilled to know when to retreat, how to mitigate chances of dying, when to avoid pvp etc. New players don't have "it" and their 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on pvp will end up with them dead loosing all.  And one thing that is not fun is re-crafting all your common crap back to 90QL, enchanting it all back to 90+ that can take several real days of casual play time. More stuffed if you are priest yourself with no crafter.. And literally no PvE dominant player wants to pvp ONCE to be smashed down to nothing and pointlessly spend numerous hours re-gearing just to die once more on the 2nd pvp attempt as when he thought he actually had a chance 1 vs 1 he found out there were 3 more stealth'ed enemies waiting for him.. 

[Oblivionnreaver 5,175]

2 hours ago, Skatyna said:

Experienced players are mag priests, using res stones,

those dont stack, basically nobody is mag most are fo and a res stone is in the shop its not like they dont also have them

2 hours ago, Skatyna said:

And one thing that is not fun is re-crafting all your common crap back to 90QL, enchanting it all back to 90+ that can take several real days of casual play time

personally we just grab stuff out of the kingdom gear pile or ask for help with gear. ql curve exists so you dont bother imping to 90ql even when im in scale it was often 70-80ql makes 0 difference and you dont need 90 casts on everything

 

if you were expecting to go out winning 1v1s crafting all your own gear and not playing with other experienced players to learn from them that's just setting yourself up for failure

[TheTrickster 2,290]

🤷‍♀️

 

I don't pvp but would like to see the pvpers looked after. Also, I would like to see a server set up that allows people to move around between pve and pvp - like Chaos in SFI already does.

 

That said, I am not sure about whether merge would help or hurt.  Part of the problem with repeatedly creating new servers is that you create a permanent problem because you if you try to consolidate you will almost definitely hack off at least some players to the point that they leave and don't come back.  

 

I am really not sure what the solution would be, but I reckon that perhaps 2 steps should be taken up front;

1. Let NFI people sail between pve and pvp like SFI.
2. Let people portal into and out of Epic with at least skills and worn/equipped gear.

 

[Skatyna 443]

21 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

those dont stack, basically nobody is mag most are fo and a res stone is in the shop its not like they dont also have them

personally we just grab stuff out of the kingdom gear pile or ask for help with gear. ql curve exists so you dont bother imping to 90ql even when im in scale it was often 70-80ql makes 0 difference and you dont need 90 casts on everything

 

if you were expecting to go out winning 1v1s crafting all your own gear and not playing with other experienced players to learn from them that's just setting yourself up for failure

 

You just confirmed all I said. Your response was from an experienced player perspective and you are right. I was talking about pvp newcomers like i was one 12y ago or so.. You cant find community before moving to pvp server as you dont know anyone, you dont even know what kingdom to choose, so you just wander in alone.. You also don't have "kingdom gear pile" waiting already in your single player freedom deed to take, you come over with what you simply have on you. And beginners don't even know what a res stone is or what it gives or where to get it.. These players come in to check out pvp, they obviously die quite soon, god bless them if they also had all their crafting tools in the inventory as they didnt think to store them away.. Then their experience is as have already explained.. Most quit pvp after first death, some might give it another go once they re-geared to the same result once more.. None of them come back and all of them talk out everyone of playing pvp server they meet slagging off wurm pvp due to their experience.. 

 

Sure, all this (new players coming to pvp) barely even happen nowadays to start with, but that's how it always was for years and this is one of many reasons pvp will not see fresh recruits anytime soon without a massive overhaul of all the pvp system

[Madnath 3,113]

Bump because of the warhammer thread having the merge stuff come back up