PvE friends, what stops you from playing PvP?

[Zundy 99]

My glorious comrades from PvE, what puts you off playing on PvP servers? Curious to see what the issues might be and if there was anyway we, the PvP community can answer or alleviate these to encourage you to join in hehe. I know for some the main one is that they've been on X server since day dot and don't want to move since they're comfortable as is.

[Valentyan 25]

Toxic community
Loss of skills/items that take time/money to replace
Clunky mechanics
Penalising casual players (those without 14 hours a day to grind/play)
Low reward

[kochinac 1,396]

I assume you're asking for NFI, as pvp situation is slightly different on SFI and NFI so it may not be the same reasons for both clusters.

My main reason is that i don't like to play with big group of people or any group of people constantly which is the almost only way to play pvp

Second, loosing of fight skills and affinities excpecially at higher level hurts a lot(POK meditation path helps with that but than again another med path is the way to go on Chaos as far as i know)

And specificly for Defiance i don't like that you don't have any rewards you can bring back to PVE like you can with pmk gear, moon metals and hotas on Chaos

[Lisimba 779]

• Potential loss of hard to replace stuff. Notably fighting skill, affinities, and to an extent gear.
• Not being sure if there's anything else at risk. There are a lot of complicated game mechanics and I don't know them all. For all I know there's some obscure mechanic that allows opponents to steal my meditation levels. I don't *think* that's the case, but you get the idea.
• Not sure where to start. What would I even do? Just wandering into a PvP zone seems like it would be basically the same as wandering around on a PvE island, up until I encounter an enemy player and then I'll be dead ten seconds later. That doesn't seem very attractive. But asking someone who knows feels like wasting their time, since as long as my affinities are at risk I'll probably not follow through anyway. Might help if there's a PvP noob guide. I'd at least read it.

[Carmichael 688]

52 minutes ago, Valentyan said:

Toxic community
Loss of skills/items that take time/money to replace
Clunky mechanics
Penalising casual players (those without 14 hours a day to grind/play)
Low reward

These are the most common answers I've always seen throughout in regards to PvP.

 

The PvE community has been historically far more toxic than pvp has ever been. Like actually, vs the passionate side of the PvPers. The most basic and simple example I'll give is that your kingdom on PvP will 9/10 times help you without charge with gear on the PvE side. Nobody charges each other for gear on the PvP side because you all work together for your goals/gear. Also the extent of how far people go over their deeds and even undeeded land on PvE servers is beyond dumb would be the absolutely biggest example. 

 

The loss of skills only really sucks if you're a higher end account. Or if you're higher fightskill (90+). But people "think" it's far worse than it actually is. In regards to the items, it literally takes me less than 5 minutes to create a full set of armor at around 75ql and maybe another 5 minutes to create weapons and a shield 75-80ql. Which is a bare minimum. Unsure of where you are getting Clunky mechanics from? The PvP side of the house is FAR more experienced and like 20,000x more knowledgeable than any PvE'r when it comes to the game itself as well.

 

Defiance was actually created to help the "casuals" so to speak. I myself am now a casual because I don't have the time like I used to to dedicate 12+ hours a day to the game anymore. I play about 25% of that (if that) and still hold up/do more than a lot of people with 12+ hours of game play a day. If we're getting raided I'll definitely dedicate a bit more. Are there still hardcore turbonerds that will try and do anything and everything to try and win? Of course, every game has them, even Wurm has those types of players. But if your towers get destroyed, does it suck? Yes of course it does, but with a solid group you can either let the enemy destroy it or go and take a fight to stop it. Or use it to fix the placement of all your towers if they go hard on destroying towers. Everything in the game is replaceable, even something like a tower is. Also how you see it as well. A lot of people, myself included, see it as more free skill. Also this type of stuff gives you more of a sense of purpose when you do things. Also you can never forget about caffeine, and being on a pvp server as well and the advantages you get of being a part of 2 servers. Fatigue and restlessness are separated on PvE and PvP. 12 hours of fatigue and 5 hours on the PvE side and another set of the same thing on the PvP side. 

 

The reward part is definitely what you make of it. The most rewarding part of it all comes down to the community you're with and what you do. Personally, I've left the dominant winning kingdom and went to MR when it was completely dead and had internal issues within it self. I helped turn that kingdom around completely into a kingdom that is actually able to hold its own and holding JK to only getting past our first dirt wall. I see that as a massive accomplishment. And for me, to see someone develope the knowledge and fortitude is what's rewarding. For some people it's getting a kill simply, getting their gear. It really depends on what YOU see as rewarding. This is a sandbox MMO and at the end of the day the content is what the player makes of it. 

 

A lot of these answers are me actually being genuine. A 100% of the PvE community makes these assumptions without actually giving PvP ever a try. Then it kind of spreads like a wildfire, how every PvE'r hates PvP without actually giving it a good try.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Carmichael

[Zundy 99]

Also with defiance as I like to keep mentioning, it does have three safe islands (one per kingdom) which you can set up a deed in/join a deed and be safe whilst you learn the ropes.

[Carmichael 688]

10 minutes ago, Lisimba said:

• Potential loss of hard to replace stuff. Notably fighting skill, affinities, and to an extent gear.
• Not being sure if there's anything else at risk. There are a lot of complicated game mechanics and I don't know them all. For all I know there's some obscure mechanic that allows opponents to steal my meditation levels. I don't *think* that's the case, but you get the idea.
• Not sure where to start. What would I even do? Just wandering into a PvP zone seems like it would be basically the same as wandering around on a PvE island, up until I encounter an enemy player and then I'll be dead ten seconds later. That doesn't seem very attractive. But asking someone who knows feels like wasting their time, since as long as my affinities are at risk I'll probably not follow through anyway. Might help if there's a PvP noob guide. I'd at least read it.

Affinities/Fighting Skill are separate on defiance vs NFI. You don't lose your NFI affinities ever...

 

Gear is easy to replace as I stated in the post above.

 

It comes down to simply asking the question in regards to random things like that. But I'll just say to not over think it because you probably are. 

 

There were a bunch of PvP guides, some were extensive with information, some weren't as bad with information overload. There definitely needs to be an updated one. And also needs to be more of a Q&A of the current servers. Which I might work on personally in the next upcoming weeks. But yes, I can see where you're coming from. My recommendation would ALWAYS to find the main group in each kingdom and try and join up with them. Because that's where all the ingame knowledge sits at for that kingdom.

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

I'm not a grinder, never was.

 

The risks outweigh the rewards.

 

My play times are inconsistent and are unlikely to line up with team-mates.

[Arronicus 642]

- The pvp player culture is one that I find very off-putting, whether that was on Epic (desertion) where I started, on various WU servers that were even briefly popular for PvP (like revenant), on Defiance when NFI released, and even the pvp section of the WO discord. Players who seek out a gameplay style that is fundamentally structured around conflict between players has a very reliable tendency to attract players who enjoy destroying other players work. I don't enjoy playing with these players, and when I'm on PvE, there's fewer of them. 

 

- I don't enjoy having to manage risk when I'm not online, or cannot be online. On a PvE server, if I cannot login for a day, or a week, or do not feel like doing so, my animals and deed and vehicles will be as I left them, provided I have payed for upkeep, and not simply left things on the ground off-deed. I never feel like I have to be on at a given time, or risk losing something I've worked for.

 

- I enjoy developing infrastructure, my deed, and locally area in ways that I find aesthetically pleasing, not in ways that are as difficult and tiresome as possible for enemy players to get through, and these two aspects are in direct conflict as a zero-sum game. 

 

- Highways are disabled on pvp servers, which cuts my ability to trade by wagoner, which I enjoy, and my ability to build bridges and highways (notably, bridges protected by highways, that I know will last indefinitely).

- The politics and popularity contests that surround kingdom offices

 

- The wurm community on any given server is small enough. Having it fragmented into several different opposing kingdoms reduces the amount of people I can talk to, trade with, help out, etc. 

 

This is only a partial list, but I feel it's more than sufficient. 

[Arronicus 642]

15 minutes ago, Carmichael said:

The PvE community has been historically far more toxic than pvp has ever been.

 

My experiences in my years of wurm have been the complete opposite. I have never once been chased down by someone on pve who was hiding near an important feature like the WL altar on elevation, with the express interest of killing people, regardless of whether the fight was fair or risky or anything of the sort for them. I have never had someone figure out when I was usually offline on PvE, and then specifically attack and drain my little deed on PvE like I have on pvp servers. Noone in pve tries to level your entire deed because they think it's funny to provoke a reaction, I saw this happen numerous times. I've never been threatened by someone that if I keep harvesting fruit in a public area that they consider theirs, that they and their friends will kill me every time they see me, something that I also had happen. People try to lay claim to non-deeded resources on pve, yes, but they often don't get so toxic with their ways of addressing disputes to those claims. 

 

You mention that people give out armor on PvP, sure, but people also constantly try to give things out to help new players on PvE too. If you're at all friendly and talk and ask questions, there's no shortage of people willing to give you 70 studded armor, 2 or 3 speed horses and other animals, basic weapons, even tools and enchants free, at least on NFI.  It's not quite the same as on PvP where people will try to gear you up completely, but part of that is because people playing PvE want to progress for themselves, too. It's not toxic to not overwhelm someone with free stuff and deny them the experiences many of us got to have as new players that got us hooked on wurm, just like it's not toxic to give them gear to enable them to get into combat quickly on pvp. 

[Carmichael 688]

12 minutes ago, Arronicus said:

- The pvp player culture is one that I find very off-putting, whether that was on Epic (desertion) where I started, on various WU servers that were even briefly popular for PvP (like revenant), on Defiance when NFI released, and even the pvp section of the WO discord. Players who seek out a gameplay style that is fundamentally structured around conflict between players has a very reliable tendency to attract players who enjoy destroying other players work. I don't enjoy playing with these players, and when I'm on PvE, there's fewer of them. 

The primary purpose of PvP is to kill other players and destroy their structures, whether its kingdom/deed based or the players themselves. A lot of it is also perceived based on what X kingdom wants to accomplish against Z kingdom. Not every kingdom also goes out of their way to try and destroy anything and everything that is in their way. Obviously you will always have a faction that somehow (idk how or why personally) finds enjoyment of wiping/pushing kingdoms back to their starter islands. It comes down to finding the PvP community that suits you and fits your goals. 

 

23 minutes ago, Arronicus said:

- I don't enjoy having to manage risk when I'm not online, or cannot be online. On a PvE server, if I cannot login for a day, or a week, or do not feel like doing so, my animals and deed and vehicles will be as I left them, provided I have payed for upkeep, and not simply left things on the ground off-deed. I never feel like I have to be on at a given time, or risk losing something I've worked for.

Defiance was created for that specially, to give you a specific time slot to allow the enemy to potentially raid you. To your surprise, it's not always the case either. This is where if you join an already established group, it's far easier to maintain a "casual" gameplay. People on the PvE side tend to create homesteads on a PvP server, because they're used to doing it. Which is fine, but also you're shooting yourself in the foot because that person will probably not play after they die the first time because once the enemy finds you, they'll already know you're from freedom and you make yourself an easy target based of simply how you build your deed. Also people get really attached to items, which I understand completely, but I always express to not get attached to anything because you will lose it at some point either in PvP or a raid. Everything IS replaceable. But I'll say this again: Defiance was created for that specially, to give you a specific time slot to allow the enemy to potentially raid you.

 

31 minutes ago, Arronicus said:

- I enjoy developing infrastructure, my deed, and locally area in ways that I find aesthetically pleasing, not in ways that are as difficult and tiresome as possible for enemy players to get through, and these two aspects are in direct conflict as a zero-sum game. 

This ties into what I said above kind of. How we build deeds on a PvP server is drastically different than what 99% of the people on PvE build deeds. The goal of a deed on a PvP server is to not get drained, so the enemy can't steal/take your stuff. So you have to build it so it doesn't take them 10 minutes to punch a hole to your token and walk in basically. If you're not online, and you live by yourself, of course you will probably lose everything you didn't log out with. This is why again, playing with an established group helps this situation. Making massive dirt walls can be tiresome, and not aesthetically pleasing, but you can always polish a turd and make it look somewhat presentable.

37 minutes ago, Arronicus said:

- Highways are disabled on pvp servers, which cuts my ability to trade by wagoner, which I enjoy, and my ability to build bridges and highways (notably, bridges protected by highways, that I know will last indefinitely).

You'd be surprised how long roads/highways that are created by PvPers last. Also a good PvPer knows the map terrain and actually avoids roads if possible, granted there aren't many, but at the end of the day they are not necessary on a PvP server since the culture of PvP doesn't charge or do "trades" so to speak unless its like drake/scale (mainly on chaos). The starter islands, however, do have roads and deeds. MR starter island I can speak for and is highly developed in that aspect, but outside of it, we still have roads, but I even personally don't use the roads because I simply know the terrain.

 

41 minutes ago, Arronicus said:

- The politics and popularity contests that surround kingdom offices

I have no idea what you mean by this? If it's regarding king? PvP players want an active king is all, not someone who logs in to swap titles around and is never seen, ever. The benefits it gives seem wasted at that point. -hope that answer that?

 

44 minutes ago, Arronicus said:

- The wurm community on any given server is small enough. Having it fragmented into several different opposing kingdoms reduces the amount of people I can talk to, trade with, help out, etc. 

This is why the PvP community as a whole is asking to consolidate into one server for various reasons. Talking, helping out, etc. yes it still happens and the communities are big enough, but you're also a lot closer to your kingdom. the trading I wouldn't even consider as 99% of the kingdoms across all pvp servers don't trade unless it's drake/scale (on chaos)

 

32 minutes ago, Arronicus said:

 

My experiences in my years of wurm have been the complete opposite. I have never once been chased down by someone on pve who was hiding near an important feature like the WL altar on elevation, with the express interest of killing people, regardless of whether the fight was fair or risky or anything of the sort for them. I have never had someone figure out when I was usually offline on PvE, and then specifically attack and drain my little deed on PvE like I have on pvp servers. Noone in pve tries to level your entire deed because they think it's funny to provoke a reaction, I saw this happen numerous times. I've never been threatened by someone that if I keep harvesting fruit in a public area that they consider theirs, that they and their friends will kill me every time they see me, something that I also had happen. People try to lay claim to non-deeded resources on pve, yes, but they often don't get so toxic with their ways of addressing disputes to those claims. 

 

You mention that people give out armor on PvP, sure, but people also constantly try to give things out to help new players on PvE too. If you're at all friendly and talk and ask questions, there's no shortage of people willing to give you 70 studded armor, 2 or 3 speed horses and other animals, basic weapons, even tools and enchants free, at least on NFI.  It's not quite the same as on PvP where people will try to gear you up completely, but part of that is because people playing PvE want to progress for themselves, too. It's not toxic to not overwhelm someone with free stuff and deny them the experiences many of us got to have as new players that got us hooked on wurm, just like it's not toxic to give them gear to enable them to get into combat quickly on pvp. 

It's not more so the chasing or trying to kill you. The PvE toxicity comes from very dumb if you ask me situations. Personally, I've been subject to things as far as: Not being as active the on Freedom side, and then my deed disbands, 1 hour later someone deeds over my mine entrance and now I can't leave my own mine because I'm walled in, or can't even get out because everything  around me is on a deed except for where my buildings were. If a new player is working on a area they want to deed (this happened at the start of NFI ALL THE TIME, some bozo would literally walk up, drop a deed and walk away. People create MASSIVE deeds with years of upkeep screwing newer players from building a deed in that area. Grinding woodcutting is the biggest thing, there are too many stupid little subrules on freedom first off (throwing it out there) in regards to what people can claim and what you can/cannot do. I was woodcutting/clearcutting off my deed between various deeds that were inactive during the time and never spoke to/seen anyone. Next day I log in, GM's are posting signs and I'm basically threatened to get banned over something so stupid (if you ask me) just because I was clear cutting an orange tree forest. - This is like 5+ years back, still true today. That's just personal experience. But I've seen people steal from each other on Freedom, stealing dragons/uniques, fighting over uniques, a lot of it is repeatable. On freedom, if you look at someone and they don't like how you look at them, you can get reported for it (not actually kidding, it has happened to people before). Also, all of the "subrules" were created because of freedom, and the amount of tickets GM's were getting at that time in regards to and I'll keep saying this, but dumb situations that they got tired of dealing with, so the GM's just made it an official "rule" aka I'll still call it a "subrule".

[Emoo 4,357]

I've already achieved everything PvP has to offer for me. These days it's hard to justify the time commitment to contribute to a PvP faction in any significant degree.

[Finnn 3,322]

skill/affinity/item loss, full loot*, token draining, stealing in general..

 

I guess.. if there was a way to preserve a set of gear and anything optional to be keep or lose.. or partial perk items giving you advantage were the only thing to drop.. etc.. something in the middle.. could of been less of a toll to pay for pvp-life;

or strictly leave things to events and pvp - death and respawns..

 

loss of anything significant is certainly not making the wurm pvp (fullloot) anything inviting as content;

[Oblivionnreaver 5,175]

theres better games out there that get updated more than once every half decade

[topkos 504]

Hmmm.

Thru the many years I been here, this question periodically pops up, again, and again, and again.

many here already posted the same reasons I have for not participating in PVP.

your answers, not matter how eloquent are, do not quite satisfy.

The only thing I can add is, I don’t believe the reason that PVEers don’t want anything to do with PVP servers is entirely the Devs fault.

2, just like in RL, when you get isolated, and no one else cares about you, nobody else wants to be by your side, don’t you think is a good time to ask to yourself, What Am I doing wrong? And stop blaming everyone else about it.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by topkos

[Reverent 284]

People-

 

Get off my lawn.

[Tukodama 316]

PvP is too time consuming for my current lifestyle. 

[Zexos 468]

I have some questions then:

 

If I come over to chaos by boat and park on the shore + place my tent down by my ship, what happens if I die to another player?

 

As in: can my tent be destroyed by another player?  How quickly could my boat be taken?  I'm guessing the lock ql plays a part but I don't know how.

 

It is more so knowing that I have an escape route to go back to freedom Isles and that I don't become stuck on the pvp server in a starter town.

 

If I know that I won't get stuck then I am more likely to come over and want to check things out.

[Oblivionnreaver 5,175]

7 minutes ago, Zexos said:

words

tents only work in kingdom influence so youd respawn at a freedom starter town

 

boat can be picked in a few minutes unless its 95+ql lock then its maybe an hour max for 98ql

 

canoes are very easy to make

[Zexos 468]

Ah, thank you for the information 😊   I forgot all about canoes.  Excellent news 👍

Edited December 7, 2023 by Zexos

[Homestead 327]

Many reasons:

 

Main one is that I don't really enjoy pvp at all.

 

If I did do pvp, it wouldn't be Wurm.  The combat really isn't that interesting. I'd do like most other people do for pvp - first person shooters.

 

It is just a gank fest. I've seen pvpers at slayings on pve server fight one on one, adjusting victory conditions because it is taking too long, even acknowledging in chat that one on one doesn't work unless there is a big imbalance (aka ganking). 

 

"PVP servers" seem silly to me. When I see pvpers spend most of their time on pve server, often just grinding str doing nothing but digging, my first thought when I see complaints that pvp servers are dead is: "Of course they are!  The 'pvpers' are on PvE in safety."  That isn't pvp.

 

Honestly, as an outside observer, it looks to me that what people really want is something like WoW battle grounds.  Pop over for a scheduled battle. Finish. Go back to regular Wurm.  But with some kind of REAL balancing mechanics imposed - so that the best qualification for "pvp" isn't spending months in the safety of a "pve" environment doing nothing but digging.

 

Alternatively, if people really want pvp, then make it really pvp. Shut down travel between pve and pvp completely.

[garforl 163]

16 minutes ago, Homestead said:

Many reasons:

 

Main one is that I don't really enjoy pvp at all.

 

If I did do pvp, it wouldn't be Wurm.  The combat really isn't that interesting. I'd do like most other people do for pvp - first person shooters.

 

It is just a gank fest. I've seen pvpers at slayings on pve server fight one on one, adjusting victory conditions because it is taking too long, even acknowledging in chat that one on one doesn't work unless there is a big imbalance (aka ganking). 

 

"PVP servers" seem silly to me. When I see pvpers spend most of their time on pve server, often just grinding str doing nothing but digging, my first thought when I see complaints that pvp servers are dead is: "Of course they are!  The 'pvpers' are on PvE in safety."  That isn't pvp.

 

Honestly, as an outside observer, it looks to me that what people really want is something like WoW battle grounds.  Pop over for a scheduled battle. Finish. Go back to regular Wurm.  But with some kind of REAL balancing mechanics imposed - so that the best qualification for "pvp" isn't spending months in the safety of a "pve" environment doing nothing but digging.

 

Alternatively, if people really want pvp, then make it really pvp. Shut down travel between pve and pvp completely.

Probably the best future for Wurm PvP if it ever wants a good participating population. Something akin to Jackal but on a much MUCH more regular basis.

 

Heck spice it up some too. Let the winners have access to the PvP area during down time. Let the area be consistent so the castle can evolve overtime as people take power.

 

Bring PMKs to PvE. Now THAT is a money maker.

[Moxie 271]

I play Wurm to build things and indulge my fantasy of being a medieval-era farmer. It's my relaxing game and I don't want to have to worry about people bothering me or my stuff. Wurm is way too slow/grindy for me to risk losing stuff. 

 

If I want to PvP (which is rare), other games are built far better for that purpose.

[ChampagneDragon 975]

I don't play because it doesn't fit how I want to game anymore. I've done PVP games before. I was good at them (not great). I liked the adrenaline rush of a good fight.

 

Now, I log in, chat with my friends and  grind. I go do a load of laundry. I grind a bit. I walk my dog. I do game "chores". I cook/eat dinner...all while logged in. There is no time table. There is no constantly being on the lookout in case.. I play to relax, not for the adrenaline highs.

[Alkhadias 548]

What stops me from PvP?

#1 Lack of PvP friends/ groups that I'd know

#2 While I know very well potential risks (and I agree with some of them as skill loss that would hurt me), I know very little about potential gains. Beside fun and cool stories of course. In other games I have incomes or move forward, or I simply improve statistics. No idea about Wurm in this matter.

#3 Time that I can spend on Wurm is limited and variable. Sometimes i can play for hours, sometimes i can do only basic chores, sometimes can't play at all for long time. And I believe that PvP require regular interactions with your group in order to achieve common goals. So I'd have to spit my time between casual Wurming and PvP wurming. 

#4 I'm not a bad PvE fighter. Got way above 90's in FS and weapons skills. But I did grind mostly PvE weapons, lacking experience in more competetive weapons. So vision of yet another "side grind" makes me sick.