Artifact Changes Review

[Propheteer 7,139]

i guess the difference in our opinions, is that i'd rather them be balanced correctly in the first place, rather than give it a shot in the dark chance of being balanced, and " it gives everyone else a chance to test potentially OP and be OP for a short amount of time"

 

If you are making suggestions with the assumption that this discussion will result in unbalanced artifacts, and since that's the case saying "just make yolo changes and hope for the best and spread them out across chaos" i think that's a flawed view of things. if they aren't balanced, and stay too weak or beocme to strong, this thread will just pop up again in another few months, and then there's no point of any of this discussion we're having

 

The last time a certain group of players thought it was balanced correctly, it did on average 60% of the above average account's HP per hit over the course of 100 hits.

 

 

The damage the sceptre does currently is just fine, and the other weapon artifacts should be put in line with the sceptre currently.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Propheteer

[Redd 4,281]

Weapons need buffing. They are useless atm. Make them swing quicker and add special abilities (LoF for hammer, Fungus for Sceptre, fire pillar for Sword of mag)

Orb of doom is useless 50/50 death/work

Recharging too often is a ball ache, make it 6 weeks per recharge

Add better recharge number indicator for the artifacts

Make eye locate 100%

Finger able to use on others

[aamanus 1,488]

Nicrolis - the orb was changed during the last round of Challenge. Previously it did not backfire (at least,  we never had it backfire on us).  We tested extensively with it, doing around 50 uses.  I think the stats were something like 27 instakills. We discovered this during PvP up at kingslayer harbour versus JK, and were rather surprised. Also to note, when it instakills someone it does not go on cooldown and can be instantly used again if someone were to pick it up.

 

And yes, the eye can bypass nolo casts (why you needed leaks from 'the kingdom' I don't know, it was posted in the change logs when it was added).  However, it's only a CHANCE to do it. I theorise that, like the ear, the eye has a cast power upon use and that cast power needs to be higher than the cast power on the protected person.  It isn't even guaranteed to locate someone who is only wearing nolo jewellery.

 

Also, while yes it may seem reasonable that my opinion will be biased, I am doing my best to be accurate when stating figures/mechanics as they currently stand.  We tested quite extensively with them after the last slew of changes.  I am however not lying.

[bawat 51]

Possibly make the items recieve damage over time so that the item may last up to a month before it gets destroyed.

Use charging to remove the damage.

 

When an item is destroyed it should be reconstructed from Elevation's soil ready to be located and found again.

I think it would be fun if they eventually returned to Wurm through asteroids hitting Elevation rather than just appearing in the ground again.

Make the item have to be physically placed inside the alter container for constant continuous charging. It can take around 60mins/30mins to become fully charged but can be taken out partially charged at any time.

(No annying message like tower capturing, just a red or white sky with a bright beam from the specific alter and a message about it when the item has been taken out of the altar)

Charging an item could have a chance to shatter it and hurt the surrounding people. - Great power is contained within these items, they should have great risks too
Place a medium soul strength and mind speed requirement to retrieve the item from the alter so that alts can't camp the charging site to ninja steal but also allowing average players to be able to obtain it.

Make the alter's light reveal any stealthed people.

Another idea for thought would be to make WL items need to be charged at the BL altar and BL items at the WL alter of the three.

Edited July 22, 2015 by bawat

[Nicrolis 980]

Ive been asked to post a suggestion that was intended to be emailed to rolf. This is not MY suggestion. I wrote it up for the person who has issues with writing and keeping a coherent thought in long essays/letters. I talked with the person as I typed it up. None of this is my idea but I do support it.

 

Warning: It is long.

 

After some recent events, I have noticed the artifacts system is a bit flawed. With the current system it makes it really easy for one kingdom to control all the artifacts. This does NOT encourage pvp, from my experiences AND observations of others. When seeing 2-3 artifacts being used in PVP from the same kingdom, most retreat off the pvp or go to secure items vs actually fighting. The system could be improved to try and encourage all kingdoms to pvp with a few changes.

At the current, one kingdom on Chaos control all the artifacts. The main reason they control them? Man power. Currently MR have massive numbers compared to the rest of chaos, JK leading closely behind. Pure numbers are not the only reason they are successful in keeping every artifacts. They have a lot of people who have money, as well as people who(as they and other kingdoms put it) "Turbo Nerd". JK on the other hand has more casual players. Smaller kingdoms do not have the amount of people needed to locate and acquire these when dropped.

Last time an artifact dropped I participated in trying to locate it for Black Legion. During this time, we had information from other kingdoms telling us what was going on in their kingdoms(please correct me if what happened in your kingdom was different than what is posted).

First JK bashed the black light. It then caused one of the artifacts MR had to drop and be hidden in the world. Within the next 10 minutes the population on the server went from around 40-90+. In black legion we got on as many champs/priests that we could and started spamming the locate artifact. Other kingdoms were doing this as well. There is a 30 minute cd and casting only reveals 1 random artifact(not necessarily the one that has been dropped). Smaller kingdoms are almost out of the running at this point, 2-3 priests(happened when most were asleep) casting and having to wait when they all fail makes it nearly impossible. MR and JK on the other hand have many more people they can use. MR is first to locate it. IIRC It happens to be in BL territory. Black legion gets this info, not from casts but from another kingdom(not sure on which, I wasn't the one who recieved this directly). MR starts moving their priests in the direction of the successful casts, several possibly karmaing(not many from intel) as they have mass reserves of karma. JK seems to of given up and gone back, as black legion territory is too far from their own. 2 BL moved towards the location leaked. After an hour and a half, give up, do to the constant fails of locating. From there MR quickly acquired the artifact they lost. During the recovery they sent out atleast 11 of their members(11 confirmed, but knowing MR there were MUCH more there).

At current, the system favors those with high numbers and the resources to do such an extensive search. The system penalizes those with smaller numbers and few resources. Now on to my suggestion. What can we do to make this even, for all kingdoms?

Instead of all the artifacts being available to ALL kingdoms, make them evenly divided up between all kingdoms. Each kingdom can choose 4-5, artifacts from a small pool, specific to each kingdom. Each kingdom's pool is seperate from the other. This would allow PMKs of the same base kingdom to still have artifacts and not have them taken by the other. Example would be if there were 2 MR kingdoms, both could have the hammer of mag. The artifacts could be passed out by the king, similar to the title system. Using Locate Artifact will show where the artifact is, even when the person is logged out with it. Res stones and Mag res bonus will still work as it currently does with artifacts, keeping it on death on success.

Currently the artifacts drop. With the new system, they would be removed from the kingdom for 1-3 weeks(I am not sure how long it should be as I am not sure if 1 is too short or 3 is too long). After being released from this 1-3week hold, the kingdom would have to either go to the altar and recover it, OR have it spawned in their territory and have to dig it up as the same mechanic is now. Only one of those should be implimented not both. I am personally in favor of the altar spawn, as it encourages other kingdoms to camp the altar and stop you from retrieving it for your kingdom. This has a nice weight, as being out the artifact would be a nice hit to the kingdom. The drop of the artifact encourages pvp as it will not have to be located using a spell, but show up at the same place.

With this suggestion, I believe artifacts can actually ENCOURAGE pvp. Every kingdom will have artifacts, and fight with out worry that they will lose them to the other kingdom. The only worry is that they will be out that artifact for a set period of time, but not lost forever.

 

[Daolin 894]

If regular weapons really are better than fantastic weapons then that seems like a bug that should be looked into.

 

Like has been repeatedly stated in the thread though, "your word" is not good enough and if this discussion is to be fair and balanced then the opportunity to test "how bad" these artifacts really are is to make them available on the test server for people to actually test them.

[Naio 675]

--opinion changed--

Edited July 24, 2015 by Naio

[hemrzz 1,278]

Remove the weapons from game.

 

add more utility Artifacts to game Fo Arti can cast 1 x Light of Fo every 30 mins / Lib arti can cast Scorn of Libila every 30 mins etc etc.

[TradingAlt 946]

I think one of the main issues is going to be figuring out what to change so that magranon isn't the only deity that is nerfed by using the artifact weapons.

All other deitys see no negative effects but if you are magranon your 25% dmg bonus doesn't work with them... There needs to be some sort of give and take and not just a nerf to mag.

[Blazer 566]

 

Recharging too often is a ball ache, make it 6 weeks per recharge

Add better recharge number indicator for the artifacts

 

+10000.

 

Some artifacts looses charges faster than others and its hard to see when they will need to be recharged

[Fooligun 591]

So from this thread, unless it's epic specific only one kingdom can comment on actual functionality of the artifacts, which are not in frequent use anymore in pvp and makes the arguement one sided and essentially biased. So the only way to get better information is to allow players to test them on the test server?

Sure some people won't test things fully, but equally some people will. If anything the artifacts problem stems from the developers stance on making it impossible to test these items outside of the live servers. If the changes were documented properly, what is the concern for being able to spawn and test them for bugs/imbalances?

I propose a test server with the chaos coding and the epic coding to be created, with the ability for players to either spawn with or be able to set skill levels themselves without a GMs assistance (including meditation), and to be able to spawn any object with the ability to set power/enchant levels easily. Once this has been completed, have time period on a monthly rotation where a GM member is available for more specific testing of effects such as uniques etc.

Do that, then ask for player feedback, anything before that will be misinformed and wrong and not beneficial to the game in suggesting a complete rework of a "broken" feature or balancing of one.

Edit: early morning and phone do not help in making posts,

Edited July 22, 2015 by Fooligun

[Redd 4,281]

If you add a system where they are respawned every few months they need to be made A LOT easier to find and A LOT more powerful to make them worth it. From past experience an artifact can take anywhere from 2-24hours depending on how lucky you get. The novelty/care runs off after the 6th artifact lol.

The recharging system works, I've seen it get kills (mol Rehan on chaos just killed 8 JK including their king 2 days due to recharging) and I've also seen it have artifacts change hands (MR killed and got the finger of fo, jk made most of the artifacts reset a good year or so ago).

Artifacts just need fine tuning to make people actually want them.

I find the arguement "only one kingdom has them, only one can test them" so ridiculously malicious it's embarissong. Why did other kingdoms moan about them being over powered? Why don't you use the test server?

Edited July 22, 2015 by Redd

[Battlepaw 585]

If you add a system where they are respawned every few months they need to be made A LOT easier to find and A LOT more powerful to make them worth it. From past experience an artifact can take anywhere from 2-24hours depending on how lucky you get. The novelty/care runs off after the 6th artifact lol.

The recharging system works, I've seen it get kills (mol Rehan on chaos just killed 8 JK including their king 2 days due to recharging) and I've also seen it have artifacts change hands (MR killed and got the finger of fo, jk made most of the artifacts reset a good year or so ago).

Artifacts just need fine tuning to make people actually want them.

I find the arguement "only one kingdom has them, only one can test them" so ridiculously malicious it's embarissong. Why did other kingdoms moan about them being over powered? Why don't you use the test server?

 

Agreed, though I don't support an automatic respawn, especially with how broken many of the artifacts are already. That stinks of free-handouts, especially if they are made silly easy to find.   Chaos is about accomplishment and the drive to change the server around you.    Encourage players to bash lights, and jump each other for artifacts, giving them a pop-goes the weasel mechanic every month won't nessiarly mean BL may somehow in their wildest dreams get lucky , it just means whoever can get on at whatever godforsaken hour they pop and put up the most players looking for them will find them.   (At least the ones people will all scramble for)     It's why I think players should have more mechanics to pick and chose how they can make them despawn, or the current mechanics where its possible to set ambushes on recharge days.    

 

Just make them get more powerful the more prem enemy characters are in local.    That means as more players enter the field, the power scales up.   That way they can be tatically used in large battles, or just make them work more effectively the more kills they get, with an upper limit just slightly better than some top-scaled weapons weapons.

 

 I'd argue that the power should decay more slowly if they are used in PvP, and faster when sitting around on an allied deed or within friendly territory, but that shouldn't apply to all artifacts, just ones that could aid the user if they need it in enemy territory.   

Edited July 22, 2015 by Battlepaw

[Fooligun 591]

If you add a system where they are respawned every few months they need to be made A LOT easier to find and A LOT more powerful to make them worth it. From past experience an artifact can take anywhere from 2-24hours depending on how lucky you get. The novelty/care runs off after the 6th artifact lol.

The recharging system works, I've seen it get kills (mol Rehan on chaos just killed 8 JK including their king 2 days due to recharging) and I've also seen it have artifacts change hands (MR killed and got the finger of fo, jk made most of the artifacts reset a good year or so ago).

Artifacts just need fine tuning to make people actually want them.

I find the arguement "only one kingdom has them, only one can test them" so ridiculously malicious it's embarissong. Why did other kingdoms moan about them being over powered? Why don't you use the test server?

Having spoken to enki about testing the artifacts on the test server with him a while back, he refused. Use the test server? The things harder to test artifacts than the actual live servers!

[Battlepaw 585]

Having spoken to enki about testing the artifacts on the test server with him a while back, he refused. Use the test server? The things harder to test artifacts than the actual live servers!

 

Well then have him hand the problem off to a developer to look at.   The test server isn't a swiss army knife for solving game issues, in a controlled environment as it's much different than the live servers, but if it has aspects that are not easy to test then it's only holding the game back by not addressing it.   I'ts still the only real proving ground we have other than just tossing things live.     

 

Perhaps just have them reset every day,  let people choose preset characters to spawn as, with known values so everyone knows the baseline, then have them compete, and be rewarded for participation, over the course of a week or so.    The challenge servers were a great idea, and you could see how much participation they drew, even if sometimes a bit silly in pratice.   Let the playerbase work for you.  

[RomaN 890]

 

It seems artifacts can be kept under control too easily still and there have been discussions that they should be reset periodically instead. Also some seem to do imbalanced damage. Thoughts?

Source: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/122314-do-artifacts-need-change/#entry1256082

Rolf's original post about artifacts back in April was that they could be kept under control too easily and that damage wasn't balanced. Despite the recent changes to recharge, the artifacts still haven't changed hands on Chaos and so this issue hasn't been resolved yet.

Unfortunately, as they haven't changed hands, only one side on Chaos is able to offer their opinion about weapon damage etc though some players from Epic have contradicted Chaos players about their usefulness in PVP so maybe artifact weapon damage is fine as is.

As far as control goes, based on the fact that they haven't changed hands yet despite recharge changes, I think all other kingdoms on Chaos can agree that they are still too easily controlled though this may be due to other factors such as kingdom territory and the location of the altars (in particular the Blacklight on Chaos).

There is support from most players that the message for how much charge is left needs to improved. I agree with this too.

[Keenan 5,539]

Well they've succeeded in bringing PvP to the forums anyway.

 

I'm sorry, but from the stand point of someone who won't ever be touching an artifact... I have to agree that this thread is a little pointless without massive testing. You all should know my kingdom affiliation, and I apologize to my kingdom mates if they feel I'm speaking out of turn. I don't even know what they all do, and not for lack of asking. I know that our chief has been honest in his post though. I recall reading about our testing on the Orb specifically, and I've seen the eye in action once or twice.

 

We need to be allowed to test artifacts on Test.

 

Sure, there needs to be a system for that in place. You can't just expect to pop on Test and right-click "Give me all the artifacts". They should only be given to people who are willing to actually TEST them, not run around and get their screenshots in. Perhaps make it something that can be scheduled so that someone like a Dev can watch the testing and see some of the results for themselves. At the end, give 24 hours for the testing party to make a post with their findings on the Test board or that party is refused future access. Sounds like a pain? Good. It shouldn't be used to gain an advantage off of Test. Sounds like a lot of work? That's what testing is - work.

 

Redd is right though, in that not enough kingdoms try for the artifacts. Though some other people are right in that they're not brought out into the field enough, except during recharge. Perhaps if other kingdoms knew what they did, and knew that they worked, they'd feel more inclined to try? What's the point of scouring the lands for an artifact that may be broken based on the last shred of knowledge on the item. On the flip side, why bring them out if they don't make it worthwhile? Should they one-shot? Absolutely not. Should they make a difference? Yes. Yes yes yes.

 

As I stated, I personally think the system should be abandoned and removed. Allow Rolf to conjure up a new feature that can be tested first on Test before rolled out to Chaos and Epic. Why? Because right now you're going to keep having this Kingdom vs Kingdom forum warfare. Obviously those that have, don't want to lose. Those that have not, want them to lose. Even the most unbiased person is going to be biased simply because of human nature.

[Redd 4,281]

Let the artifacts be used on test servers and they can find out that the orb is pointless, and weapons suck (may as well use normal weapons over them).

 

Recharging them, well it seems everyone is agreed 3 weeks is too little, and telling what points they have is just a guessing game.

[Zekezor 3,188]

My personal opinion about recharging:

(just read it all before making opinions, kay? it will change the artifact feature a fair bit so get a proper grasp of what im suggesting first)

 

Let the suckers last 2 months or something and then they hit the ground no matter what. (could be 1 i guess, but lets see how 2 months work as a start)

That way they get utilized properly. They become a temporary pvp bonus to a kingdom. It would be a waste not to use them when they are in your posession. and if you happen to lose it in pvp, so what? you would lose it in about a month or less anyway.

The whole recharge thing is a boring mechanic that wastes peoples time and its just a boring chore.

And add a lil random delay before reappearing in the world after vanishing. (this will slightly alter the day of the week and time of when it will be obtained next time. prevents artis being only available in certain time zones and prevents kingdoms from knowing when exactly to have a 500 man force of locate artifact priests available.)

Oh and get rid of those stupid charges per use. let people play with their artis freely and just let the cooldowns do their job. It's more fun that way.

Lower the faith requirement/favor cost/cd for locate artifact, let even the newer priests in kingdoms join in on the hunt. (lets say 60 faith, 30 favor, 10 min cd)

Increase the chance of finding artifacts while walking over them to 100% chance.

 

Adds a bit of randomness to control, sure, but it would be more fun and exciting rather than what we used to have and what we have atm.

+with 12 diffrent artifacts in the world it would create "events" every week (or every half week if its the 1month deal)

 

 

tldr:

Artis arent recharged.

Artis go into the ground after 2 months. (could be 1 i suppose, but lets start with 2, mkay?)

There is a random 24-36h delay after vanishing before it reappears. And ofcourse it's announced in global when it vanishes/appear in the world.

No artifact power lost upon usage.

Easier to find artis + buffed locate artifact.

 

More fun feature overall.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Zekezor

[McDaniel 342]

The problem i have with artifacts doing to the ground after x amount of time is that finding them is super boring and time consuming.

If you have a artifact going to the ground every week or half week people will be looking for them not stop and wont have time to enjoy the game anymore.

[Redd 4,281]

My personal opinion about recharging:

(just read it all before making opinions, kay? it will change the artifact feature a fair bit so get a proper grasp of what im suggesting first)

 

Let the suckers last 2 months or something and then they hit the ground no matter what. (could be 1 i guess, but lets see how 2 months work as a start)

That way they get utilized properly. They become a temporary pvp bonus to a kingdom. It would be a waste not to use them when they are in your posession. and if you happen to lose it in pvp, so what? you would lose it in about a month or less anyway.

The whole recharge thing is a boring mechanic that wastes peoples time and its just a boring chore.

And add a lil random delay before reappearing in the world after vanishing. (this will slightly alter the day of the week and time of when it will be obtained next time. prevents artis being only available in certain time zones and prevents kingdoms from knowing when exactly to have a 500 man force of locate artifact priests available.)

Oh and get rid of those stupid charges per use. let people play with their artis freely and just let the cooldowns do their job. It's more fun that way.

Lower the faith requirement/favor cost/cd for locate artifact, let even the newer priests in kingdoms join in on the hunt. (lets say 60 faith, 30 favor, 10 min cd)

Increase the chance of finding artifacts while walking over them to 100% chance.

 

Adds a bit of randomness to control, sure, but it would be more fun and exciting rather than what we used to have and what we have atm.

+with 12 diffrent artifacts in the world it would create "events" every week (or every half week if its the 1month deal)

 

 

tldr:

Artis arent recharged.

Artis go into the ground after 2 months. (could be 1 i suppose, but lets start with 2, mkay?)

There is a random 24-36h delay after vanishing before it reappears. And ofcourse it's announced in global when it vanishes/appear in the world.

No artifact power lost upon usage.

Easier to find artis + buffed locate artifact.

 

More fun feature overall.

 

Artifact hunting isnt fun. If the way artifacts are found is changed to actually make it a fun thing, i would support this. Otherwise, the recharging mechanic works fine as it promotes PvP.

[Zol 133]

Artifact hunting isnt fun. If the way artifacts are found is changed to actually make it a fun thing, i would support this. Otherwise, the recharging mechanic works fine as it promotes PvP.

 

It does no such thing. The only PvP it promotes is a zerg hiding in a mine 20 tiles away from the WL waiting for someone to come recharge. Which almost never happens because they don't know exactly when the enemy arti needs to be recharged.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Zol

[Postinglels 1,270]

Huh, let's make an arti for making the hunting of artifacts so much more fun and have it spawned in jukimo's shack, confirmed user of artifacts and a mag champ on chaos.

Or just make a pop up window on a locate arti cast and select the one you are searching for. One of these choices makes sense surely

[MetalDragon 1,630]

Yes artifact searching is boring but that's because your mentality is currently *our kingdom must hold onto them ALL at ALL times*.

If it's changed to reset them every month or two, the mentality will change to only capture the ones that will benefit you for the time frame provided. So if you want a powerful buff it gives a pre warning to other kingdoms a big attack may hit. Or you may just get the specific artifact as a defensive stand point so your enemy doesn't get it.

It allows for more thought around them, dig them up? Locate them and secure the location until it needs to be used in 6 weeks, etc etc.

That could make things a bit more interesting. Securing the location means you have an infinate charge until you need to actually use it.

[Zekezor 3,188]

Artifact hunting isnt fun. If the way artifacts are found is changed to actually make it a fun thing, i would support this. Otherwise, the recharging mechanic works fine as it promotes PvP.

Hmmm.... I suppose it could have some more fun factors added to it.

 

Locate artifact can specify which of the gods you wish to focus on (there is 3 artis for each of the 4 original gods).

The sensing area is extended to a 3x3 field rather than a single tile. a similar msg but "weaker" can be noticed while 1 tile away from the artifact tile. (cuz the final coaming for the arti is annoying.)

Each person in the same kingdom within local of the digger gets 1000 karma. Priests get 0.5 faith. and the cherry to top it off: +50% exp bonus for the upcomming 3 hours.

 

All of the above in combination with:

Lower the faith requirement/favor cost/cd for locate artifact, let even the newer priests in kingdoms join in on the hunt. (lets say 60 faith, 30 favor, 10 min cd)

Increase the chance of finding artifacts while walking over them to 100% chance.

 

Will make artifact hunting a bit more fun and more rewarding (people going "F##K YEA! 50% XP!" etc).

Since finding the artifact is made easier speed becomes more important (and you wont waste as much time either!) and thus quick forming of artifact hunting groups gets made that run out to find them... Which makes spontaneous pvp/roaming possible since speed matters.

 

Tldr:

Woooo, arti hunts.

 

 

 

sidenote: since control would be more random people would also be more interested in getting balanced artis rather than "buff my artis" vs "nerf their artis"

Edited July 22, 2015 by Zekezor