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Belfesar

Am i the only one?

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Wurm was better in 2006 only because freedom didn't exist and it should have stayed that way.

 

Thats essentially when we began having 2 separate games.  1 PVP, 1 PVE... Now with Epic there are 3...

 

It was much better when players could not attack on Home Servers than to keep all interaction apart.  While there were exploits involved.... it was still a much better, and easier way to transfer to PVP once you learned the game adequately.

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I have watched and grimaced but said nothing over the years at the changes or ninja nerfs he has made.

 

You say nothing and expect changes to be made...that makes no sense. It's like people who complain a government is terrible, when they didn't bother to vote in the first place.

 

If the Dev team don't hear your opinion, how will they know what you think?...

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Just curious, how many premium players were there in the good old days before 2006 compared to now? 


 


Would it even be technically possible to play all on one server now? (My guess is not). 


 


Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I guess Wurm must have been awesome in the start, with a small and very tight community, and for those that played back then, it can never be the same, since there are more players, and they are more widespread over many servers. 


 


I have to agree with one thing though, and that is that the separation of the game into Freedom/Chaos and Epic is a bit odd. But it doesn't really interfere with my gameplay, especially now that I can still chat and keep in touch with friends even if they are on other servers. 


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If the devs are listening, then I'd like to see them consider the following:


 


More documentation and complete patch notes (no ninja updates)


 


More balance instead of over the top nerfs (such as polearms now being useless due to several aspects being nerfed at one time instead of a single, more balanced nerf to one aspect)


 


Listening to the whole community instead of those who whine in IRC, email, etc.


 


Not adding useless and unnecessary nerfs and "features" to the game, as well as not fixing things that aren't broken (long range archery nerf, great helm archery nerf, woodcutting timer reduction, etc.)

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Just curious, how many premium players were there in the good old days before 2006 compared to now? 

 

Would it even be technically possible to play all on one server now? (My guess is not). 

 

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I guess Wurm must have been awesome in the start, with a small and very tight community, and for those that played back then, it can never be the same, since there are more players, and they are more widespread over many servers. 

 

I have to agree with one thing though, and that is that the separation of the game into Freedom/Chaos and Epic is a bit odd. But it doesn't really interfere with my gameplay, especially now that I can still chat and keep in touch with friends even if they are on other servers. 

 

1. Prior to Jun 6th 2006 the game was in beta with no paying customers.  There were a few hundred players with usually over 80 active at any given time on the one server. (you were also limited to 1 active character per computer)

 

2. Even on the current standalone clusters, you don't have the politics (there were several tight nit communities in Beta actively waring with eachother)  Micro-transactions killed it and is the major reason players quit the game totally in PVP clusters because of the loss of financial investment in deeds if they lose a single battle (and a huge reason a lot of players are deterred from joining PVP servers).  In Beta, the only loss was going Champion and dying 3 times.  No money lost, just time.  It was the risk of going Champion.  Micro-Transaction might have given Rolf a financial boost... but at the cost of rage quitters and tamed/timid  PVP servers.  There were very few established players in Beta that rage quit.

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Seems liek their were also very few players in beta...


 


The only person that quit since 2006 was malvado and he keeps posting here anyway.


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This thread has become pretty interesting, not because of the bad OP but it\s interesting to hear about the old time. Sound like very fun times, and even more so considering it was a very long time ago when games were not as advanced in general as they are today. 


 


But Wurm staying like in beta with a couple of hundred players that doesnt have to pay anything is not a healthy business model. Clearly it couldn't continue like that. 


 


I agree that micro transactions are bad in general, especially in a sandox where stuff should be player made. I would prefer to have just a subscription fee that everyone has to pay. Then when you are in game you can forget about RL money and just concentrate on the game. 


 


Multiple worlds are bad as well, I'd rather have just one world but different linked servers. One or a few full PvP servers, and some servers with no PvP or PvP by consent, like village wars or whatever but all linked and possible to travel to by boats or portals.  And with this there would be just one rule set for all but with some restrictions in certain areas. 


 


 


Appart from this though, the game is very much better now than it was a few years ago. 


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1. Prior to Jun 6th 2006 the game was in beta with no paying customers.  There were a few hundred players with usually over 80 active at any given time on the one server. (you were also limited to 1 active character per computer)

 

2. Even on the current standalone clusters, you don't have the politics (there were several tight nit communities in Beta actively waring with eachother)  Micro-transactions killed it and is the major reason players quit the game totally in PVP clusters because of the loss of financial investment in deeds if they lose a single battle (and a huge reason a lot of players are deterred from joining PVP servers).  In Beta, the only loss was going Champion and dying 3 times.  No money lost, just time.  It was the risk of going Champion.  Micro-Transaction might have given Rolf a financial boost... but at the cost of rage quitters and tamed/timid  PVP servers.  There were very few established players in Beta that rage quit.

Yeah it is pretty rediculous that someone wants to get paid for all the work they put into a project.

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Seems liek their were also very few players in beta...

 

The only person that quit since 2006 was malvado and he keeps posting here anyway.

Add myself and a few more to that list... I know a lot had their hopes up that Epic was going to be more like beta... but it turned out to be a DnD fest with less focus on player to player driven interactions and history development (like beta).

 

This thread has become pretty interesting, not because of the bad OP but it\s interesting to hear about the old time. Sound like very fun times, and even more so considering it was a very long time ago when games were not as advanced in general as they are today. 

 

But Wurm staying like in beta with a couple of hundred players that doesnt have to pay anything is not a healthy business model. Clearly it couldn't continue like that. 

 

I agree that micro transactions are bad in general, especially in a sandox where stuff should be player made. I would prefer to have just a subscription fee that everyone has to pay. Then when you are in game you can forget about RL money and just concentrate on the game. 

 

Multiple worlds are bad as well, I'd rather have just one world but different linked servers. One or a few full PvP servers, and some servers with no PvP or PvP by consent, like village wars or whatever but all linked and possible to travel to by boats or portals.  And with this there would be just one rule set for all but with some restrictions in certain areas. 

 

 

Appart from this though, the game is very much better now than it was a few years ago. 

 

Essentially, the player base didn't explode in 2006... 2007 or even 2010.  It was only recently that Wurm grew bigger and bigger probably due to the features that made the current game play style bearable compared to other games.  (there was a saying amongst players, you are paying for a beta with less options and freedom than the beta itself... BUT THEIRS BOATS! (Late Gold 2))

 

Had Rolf adopted a different pay scale and charge everyone 10 euro a month for premium instead of betting on everyone buying 5 silver and 1 month every month, he probably could have made a lot more money, and the game mechanics for PVP could have been completely different with Deeds/Towers/Conquering etc.  Wurm economy is betting on their being at least 1-2 money bags willing to pay whatever it takes to win at what they are doing.  When those players leave... Wurm population starts dropping off. 

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Yeah it is pretty rediculous that someone wants to get paid for all the work they put into a project.

 

read my post above.  I never said he shouldn't have gone Gold, or even started charging people money.  he could have adopted a different pay scale altogether...

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Without Freedom Server I wouldn't play Wurm. I am a carebear and enjoy this game very much - but Epic or Chaos are nothing for me. There are different types of players you know ? Still = me is a noobie  ( I am playing now around 4 months ) but yeah - I did see so much worse in other games. The dev's and Rolf doing a pretty good job in my eyes. 


If you play too long and feeling discouraged - go play another game and come back if you have seen the much worse stuff there is outside of Wurm  :P


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Without Freedom Server I wouldn't play Wurm. I am a carebear and enjoy this game very much - but Epic or Chaos are nothing for me. There are different types of players you know ? Still = me is a noobie  ( I am playing now around 4 months ) but yeah - I did see so much worse in other games. The dev's and Rolf doing a pretty good job in my eyes. 

If you play too long and feeling discouraged - go play another game and come back if you have seen the much worse stuff there is outside of Wurm  :P

 

The original Gold 1 Layout was 1 Home Server 1 Wild server.  There were only 2 kingdoms, JK and HOTS.  JK could cross between both servers, HOTS could not.  So essentially, the Home Server was a freedom server with a 2 way access to try out PVP.  Enemies could not attack the Home Server.

 

Later (in Gold 2 iirc...), after it was viewed as being abused and exploited by running skirmishes across the border and swimming to safety (before boats were implemented) Rolf decided all servers should be PVP and opened the borders to HOTS... and a large portion of players who had no interest in PVP quit.

 

And then we got the Freedom cluster!

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A few things spring to mind.


 


  1. As a developer, you can't "play" your own game. Not in the sense an ordinary player can. It's a completely different experience, and in order to see it through a player's eyes, you absolutely need to talk to players. We know Rolf does this.
  2. We _also_ know Rolf has 'played' the game extensively, as a developer. I've personally run past a house he left on Deliverance that would have taken a several hours to make in the ordinary fashion. He without doubt messes around on the test server as well as it is actually not possible to make any kind of working changes server side without messing about with a client on the client side.
  3. People get sick of games. Especially with MMOs, there is a well documented ennui stage where the player is basically looking for a sufficiently dramatic reason to rationalise leaving the game - despite having so much invested in it. Friends, perhaps a deed and a lot of other possessions.
  4. Seven (?) years is an enormous length of time to develop a single game. Rolf will no doubt experience periodic burnout. Hell, reading posts like this (and others) he probably also wonders why he is still developing it at times ;)
  5. Seven (?) years is an enormous length of time to PLAY a single game. Are you getting sick of the way the game is moving after 7 years of playing? Step back a bit and realise how unbelievably awesome that is.
  6. There are actually some good examples in this thread of fair criticism, and some really interesting perspectives on "ye olde days".
  7. Recent developments are mostly awesome in my opinion. Multi storey houses was awesome. The new crafting interface is awesome. Making fighting more modern/interesting would be uber cool.
  8. There is NO 8th point

Regards,


Shiraek


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The original Gold 1 Layout was 1 Home Server 1 Wild server.  There were only 2 kingdoms, JK and HOTS.  JK could cross between both servers, HOTS could not.  So essentially, the Home Server was a freedom server with a 2 way access to try out PVP.  Enemies could not attack the Home Server.

 

Later (in Gold 2 iirc...), after it was viewed as being abused and exploited by running skirmishes across the border and swimming to safety (before boats were implemented) Rolf decided all servers should be PVP and opened the borders to HOTS... and a large portion of players who had no interest in PVP quit.

 

And then we got the Freedom cluster!

Now this sounds pretty agressive to me - so players in Freedom are nothing ? Or do I get that wrong ?

 

I did play some Sandbox games - and it was just terrible to got griefed from players with higher stats and long years of playing. You work hard to achieve some stuff  - and then all your beloved things you planned carefully in hours and hours get wasted ( even if you tried to make all safe enough to survive ) They just wait 'til its profitable to grief you.  - So Freedom Cluster is awesome in my opinion. 

 

A game is as long innovative as it try's out different ways. It looks to me exactly that happened over the years. There are a lot of games ( in mind I have just Ryzom or Heaven & Hearth, Salem ) who could use a lot more thinking and love. Wurm is thx god not in stagnancy !

 

@Shiraek - well written !!

Edited by Syrann

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If the devs are listening, then I'd like to see them consider the following:

 

More documentation and complete patch notes (no ninja updates)

 

More balance instead of over the top nerfs (such as polearms now being useless due to several aspects being nerfed at one time instead of a single, more balanced nerf to one aspect)

 

Listening to the whole community instead of those who whine in IRC, email, etc.

 

Not adding useless and unnecessary nerfs and "features" to the game, as well as not fixing things that aren't broken (long range archery nerf, great helm archery nerf, woodcutting timer reduction, etc.)

 

I fully agree that people who go more often to IRC get their opinions heard a lot better.

Hope the Devs + GMs would more openly discuss stuff in chats like GL-freedom.

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Hopefully every future change will be handled with ingame vote system.

Even if we are confused on which direction the game is going, atleast we can affect it in some way.

I have to disagree with this a bit. While player input is good, we do not and should not control Wurm. I think expecting everything to be  approved by players is  a bit much.  Ultimately it is Rolf's sandbox. We  get to play here. 

Edited by Chiqa
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New Crafting System:  It doesn't seem to make any sense from a programming perspective that the code can't check that there are sufficient mats in the window.


 


It doesn't make any sense on Chaos, that it takes 40 accounts to create a PMK when there are between 50-70 ppl online and a number of those are alts.


 


From a pvp perspective, pendulums that triangulate player positions?  Seriously, that is just ignorant.


 


Edit to add:  Increased skill gains on PvE servers, increased mob spawns on PvE servers...I mean come on dev team, do you even Dev?


Edited by Stinkeye

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I agree with others that the OP is too vague to be taken as a serious complaint without specifics.  However a couple of things have been mentioned in this thread that are particular burrs under my saddle personally and this seems as good a place as any for me to vent them.


 


One is the unexplained ninja nerfs with either no explanation at all, or some vague explanation like "not a nerf, we found a bug so we fixed it."  Like the increased on-deed decay.  There were metric butt-loads of bugs that were being complained about, that were actually inconveniencing and annoying players.  Rather than working on those first, they accidentally find a bug that no one objected to at all, and which actually enhanced play for paying customers, and they "fix" that!   Or the wrapping.  "Not being used as intended."  So they "fix" it by taking it away from us altogether.   What about the stuff that actually needs fixing, like griefers being able to lock your bsbs on your deed in your house if you have arched walls and you can't do a damn thing about it?


 


Another is the fact that the focus of this game really does seem to be noticeably skewed toward pvp issues.  Not that it's always something the pvpers even want or like and a lot of times it's a nerf to them too & pisses them off as much as the rest of us.  It's just that decisions seem to be made based on Rolf's and/or the dev team's opinions of how it will affect pvp, and the pve servers can just lump it if they don't like it.  Like the tower guards issue as an example.  And my feeling is that the bsb issue isn't taken too seriously since it doesn't affect the pvp servers. Not a priority. Better to increase on-deed decay that wasn't bothering anybody than to worry about griefing on pve servers.  The wrapping thing is probably related to how it was being used on the pvp servers. etc.  Just my opinion.  


 


My third big bugaboo is things being listened to and decisions made from IRC.  I can't tell you how many times I've seen threads complaining about a change and people saying nothing was ever said about it, only to have someone say "yes it was," and post a snippet from IRC where Rolf said this, that, or the other in response during their elite discussion on the subject.  For me, it's like instant-piss-off when I see that.  If things are going to be decided based on a scant few IRC campers, that's just plain wrong.


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New Crafting System:  It doesn't seem to make any sense from a programming perspective that the code can't check that there are sufficient mats in the window.

 

The code can tell just fine for me. I've never experienced this issue.
 

It doesn't make any sense on Chaos, that it takes 40 accounts to create a PMK when there are between 50-70 ppl online and a number of those are alts.

 

Right. Because a kingdom. A small empire, should be a player and his three friends, and not represent a substantial group of players, right? There are far more than 50-70 active players, and considering there are already at least 3 kingdoms, the limitation is completely reasonably, or else you would completely devalue the term.
 

From a pvp perspective, pendulums that triangulate player positions?  Seriously, that is just ignorant.

 

There are pendulums that point you in the direction of enemy players, IF they are within the short range of a lurker in the woods pendulum. I believe the max range is 50 tiles, and that's assuming you get a 100 strength cast on it. They do not triangulate anything for you. There is also absolutely nothing 'ignorant' about this. 
 

ig·no·rant
ˈignərənt/
adjective
 
  1. 1.
    lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.

 

Edit to add:  Increased skill gains on PvE servers, increased mob spawns on PvE servers...I mean come on dev team, do you even Dev

Apparently the Epic pvp cluster with double the skillgains of the PvE servers, and skill curve, has reduced skillgain. TIL. Also, apparently they didn't double the mob cap on Elevation not too long ago. Go figure. 

Come-on Stinkeye, do you even play Wurm? Your entire post comes across as someone who just read about the game on a review site, and didn't even log in.

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Right. Because a kingdom. A small empire, should be a player and his three friends, and not represent a substantial group of players, right? There are far more than 50-70 active players, and considering there are already at least 3 kingdoms, the limitation is completely reasonably, or else you would completely devalue the term.

Yeah perhaps the system to form a new kingdom should be a bit simpler and not require everyone to be online at the same time. Make it more along the lines of an alliance seceding from their kingdom. The village that wants to be the capital uses the declaration of independence. The person that used it would be shown the number of premium accounts in the alliance and if it's enough would let them continue with the process. Once the declaration of independence stuff is finished and all the mayors of the other villages in the alliance approve, the alliance breaks off into the new kingdom. That way everyone doesn't need to be online at the same time in the same area.

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Just wanted to put a word in as your aim is a bit of on this one.

 

I can sympathize that from an external standpoint it can seem like you say.

 

But Rolf is hardly the only one developing this game by this point.

We take decisions collectively at this company.

And what he does, with the limited time that is in between everything else he needs to focus on as the head of the company.

Even if you do not know this.

He has especially lately been 100% focused on feedback from the players. Just to name something, the fighting changes and balancing.

Which we also used a counsel of players to evaluate.

 

But we are pacing up, and with more support, we get further recourses and will be better able to keep up with demand.

It is no easy thing to go through the vast amount of information constantly being generated by our creative players.

It is a treasure of information, this is for certain and no one at the company would deny that.

 

There is however one timeless truth, and that is that you can not make everybody happy.

But do not aim this at Rolf personally, because we are a team.

It is great that the whole team is involved in making decisions, and I love Wurm.  Bugs and all.  I think it is an awesome game.

 

I guess the problem many players see is the one you mentioned here:  You use 'a counsel of players to evaluate' and give feedback. Who chooses this counsel?  How do you get onto this counsel?  Can I get onto this counsel?  Do devs choose the players for the counsel or do you apply somewhere?  Or is it to do with alliances or friends or people emailing or...?  For many players, people who pay money each month to play, people who are passionate about the game, a fair opportunity to give feedback to devs via a counsel would be awesome.  Of course you cannot go ask every player, except if you introduce in game voting systems, open to all, to vote on decisions.  I guess this is what many are referring to when they refer to asking players about changes.  I could, of course, be completely wrong too, but I would like to have a vote on changes hopefully before they are made...or after.  So if most players prefer them changed back, they get a say in the change. 

 

Also, just referring players to forums suggestions and ideas page, is not interactive.  I would suggest an interactive in game voting system so players who are currently active, get the option to vote on stuff happening.  That being said, the developer of the game has the final say, of course, but getting player input about decisions is not a bad thing either.

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@flatline: I believe counsel of players as in the recent many topics that been open on the news section of things that going to be implemented like titles, pvp easy fruits, to armor balancing.


 


I think the whole wurm development is getting a lot better than what I see a year ago. A year ago no one have a clue what is the next objects in the update will be, if there even going to be. Transparency was even more.. lack that time, and ninja updates that outrage players. Recently things are getting better after the (i forgot what it was?)biggest outrage of a ninja update. And I love how they try to improve the ease of accessing the game without changing much of it, hopefully more % of non-quitting newcomers. It is not the best dev team in the world, but many of changes or no-changes I disagree with I can neglect.


 


Farming is better with Tich's update in some way. Less gain if you don't rake indeed but it give sense of new purpose of raking. I recently created a new character and try to play solo... raking my little farm everyday is an excitement as I know it means more yield than just two (minimum yield), it even take less than five minutes. While.. my main character with 60+ farming don't bother raking because my farmfield is above 200 tiles... but I still get 4-5 yields so I don't mind. In the plus side, if I am not lazy and rake, I probably already reach 70 or 80... If I really need more crops I will add more lands to sow with, no big deal.


 


I would agree not everything should be tackled 'as players ask it', main reason is not debate of more people = more intellectual minds, but more on the issue of what the game direction would goes to. Even in the most democratic dev team or kickstarter-backed project like starbound always have one lead game designer that have ultimate say on a game and that make a solid game.


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This new thing, it is bad.  All I have to say is they are trying to make this game better, sometimes they screw up, sometimes they get things right, they're human this happens.  I'm just happy that Rolf and team haven't completely abandoned this project like Notch did.  I really doubt Rolf makes that much money off this game so obviously his heart is in the right place.


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Just wanted to put a word in as your aim is a bit of on this one.

 

I can sympathize that from an external standpoint it can seem like you say.

 

But Rolf is hardly the only one developing this game by this point.

We take decisions collectively at this company.

And what he does, with the limited time that is in between everything else he needs to focus on as the head of the company.

Even if you do not know this.

He has especially lately been 100% focused on feedback from the players. Just to name something, the fighting changes and balancing.

Which we also used a counsel of players to evaluate.

 

But we are pacing up, and with more support, we get further recourses and will be better able to keep up with demand.

It is no easy thing to go through the vast amount of information constantly being generated by our creative players.

It is a treasure of information, this is for certain and no one at the company would deny that.

 

There is however one timeless truth, and that is that you can not make everybody happy.

But do not aim this at Rolf personally, because we are a team.

Sorry Baron, but that's half true. (well PR job is do deal with those i guess).

Sure, Rolf did post asking for changes, but then delivered some of the least suggested changes there. For example the tower guard change, it was a single suggestion, and yet out of dozens, not to say hundreds of posts thats what you gathered was needed.

 

Not even going after the fact that PvP is never going to become popular or "fixed" with overnight fixes from the forums.

 

So yeah, not really focused on feedback. And people are used to focus on Rolf because he's usually the forerunner of weird, unexpected and uncalled for nerfs. Although those are spreading, like tich with farming. Not to mention the "face" of the company, as well as its head.

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