Over 81% Agree, Enchanted Grass Needs Fixed. More Than 51% Ask For Permanent Grass. Op Updated With Ideas :)

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

Thanks for posting your experience, but mine has been quite different. As I posted earlier this week, I've had a test 1x2 pen for a couple of months now to see if more animals per tile does make enchanted grass pack faster. I keep a changing number of animals in it from 4 which is the maximum you can have without them getting diseased, up the as many as I felt like putting in there and not one packed tile in that pen since I enchanted it.

 

So, yes. I love my big pasture with a low population of animals, but it seems to pack way more often than the 1x2 pens.

Also, I've not tested this but I'm told 1x1 pens pack even less because the animal can't move so no automatic pathing.

 

so, feel free to post your experience, I welcome it. But don't call me a liar just because your experience didn't match mine.

 

Take a chill pill.  There's big difference in showing you that you are mistaken, and just calling you a liar.

[Talilon 57]

Here is another idea. Why not change enchant to a priest spell without a cooldown? It could use the same amount of favor as strongwall and so be limited by favor regen/sacrificing.  Enchant as it is now  seems much less like a hard earned rare reward for meditation and enlightenment than it does a priest spell like strongwall.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Talilon

[sunsvortex 599]

Thanks for posting your experience, but mine has been quite different. As I posted earlier this week, I've had a test 1x2 pen for a couple of months now to see if more animals per tile does make enchanted grass pack faster. I keep a changing number of animals in it from 4 which is the maximum you can have without them getting diseased, up the as many as I felt like putting in there and not one packed tile in that pen since I enchanted it.

 

So, yes. I love my big pasture with a low population of animals, but it seems to pack way more often than the 1x2 pens.

Also, I've not tested this but I'm told 1x1 pens pack even less because the animal can't move so no automatic pathing.

 

so, feel free to post your experience, I welcome it. But don't call me a liar just because your experience didn't match mine.

 

Ok then "IF" that's the case (As its been quite some time since I was heavily breeding and the devs love to slide in unannounced changes) - then it sounds like there is a problem with pathing. I would suggest that pathing not be the determining factor in determining how /when a tile gets packed and look at when the tile is 1. grazed till its short... then 2.apply the amount of time an animal is located on the tile (that's grazed till short or is flagged as having short grass) to determine whether or not the tile gets packed.( I actually have no idea how this is  calculated and unless I see where a dev says - "this is how its calculated" any assumption will be viewed as suspect.)

 

Now regardless of what your using to feed grazing animals it will all get packed. Then you can give enchanted grass a bonus to longevity as Spellcast was suggesting and it will be worth getting the enchanted grass to begin with.

 

Now as far as testing goes....unless your testing with 50+ animals and using a baseline to compare against..your results are not going to be very accurate at all. The more data points the more accurate the result.

 

But again, my point is, simply reversing the enchanted grass back to permanent is not a solution.

Edited July 19, 2013 by sunsvortex

[Talilon 57]

Just re-read some of your previous posts, is the only reason you are against permanent enchanted grass due to the 1x1 and 1x2 pens?  Because I would LOVE to have a rolling pasture with the animals spread out grazing on green grass, but the current change seems to discourage that 

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

Ok then "IF" that's the case (As its been quite some time since I was heavily breeding and the devs love to slide in unannounced changes) - then it sounds like there is a problem with pathing. I would suggest that pathing not be the determining factor in determining how /when a tile gets packed and look at when the tile is 1. grazed till its short... then 2.apply the amount of time an animal is located on the tile (that's grazed till short or is flagged as having short grass) to determine whether or not the tile gets packed.( I actually have no idea how this is  calculated and unless I see where a dev says - "this is how its calculated" any assumption will be viewed as suspect.)

 

Now regardless of what your using to feed grazing animals it will all get packed. Then you can give enchanted grass a bonus to longevity as Spellcast was suggesting and it will be worth getting the enchanted grass to begin with.

 

Now as far as testing goes....unless your testing with 50+ animals and using a baseline to compare against..your results are not going to be very accurate at all. The more data points the more accurate the result.

 

But again, my point is, simply reversing the enchanted grass back to permanent is not a solution.

Actually, since there has been so many complaints since enchanted grass was nerfed, making it permanent again is the best solution.  And I ask again, can you enchant grass?

Edited July 19, 2013 by Vroomfondel

[sunsvortex 599]

Just re-read some of your previous posts, is the only reason you are against permanent enchanted grass due to the 1x1 and 1x2 pens?  Because I would LOVE to have a rolling pasture with the animals spread out grazing on green grass, but the current change seems to discourage that 

 

Not really...I don't want to see animals horded anymore. By having enchanted grass permanent -  it allows free feeding of animals while reducing by a large % the amount of maintenance required to keep large sized animal farms - thereby increasing ..overall... the number of players that have huge animal farms - thereby locking up more animals that other new players or players that have never had the opportunity to participate in animal husbandry, have available, due to animals being horded. Removing permanency from enchanted grass is just one of many steps that needed to be done to ensure such a thing does not happen again. Im not against large animal farms...just think their should be very few of them - and those that put the time and effort into them should be the ones that reap the rewards - not the idler, come online once a month people, who... by default....lock up content. I started the game during the time of animal hoarding...it sucked - and I support any effort to reduce the frequency of hoarding..and thereby increase available content for everyone. I don't care for a handful of players that "own" the content...so to speak.

 

The 1x2's are a reminder of that time - and they simply piss me off.

 

So in short - having permanent grass available is not a solution..it only pushes the game back into the past...it needs to go forward.

 

So now that 1. Enchanted grass is gone - no free feeding 2. Animal ratio is in - no 10000 animals per deed  and 3. Spawning mechanics have changed = End Result, which  = Wild horses all over the server - and not just horses, pigs, dogs, deer, cattle.(when I first started playing it was not possible to find wild anything on the server) Anyone that wants to get into animal husbandry can - and they are not required to either depend on someones charity to give them the animals they are looking for or be forced to pay ridiculously high prices just to get into AH...the barriers to entry have been removed so that everyone now can enjoy that content...that was  (when I first started playing) locked out to all but those that were willing to pay or knew someone.

Edited July 19, 2013 by sunsvortex

[san_tropez 394]

Most of the oh so bad hoarders check on their animals pretty much daily anyway, so unless Rolf wizkill every single docile animal once a week, hoarding will always exist. Animal ratio just ###### up the situation for PvP deeds and anybody who actually lives in a village instead of a solo deed.

 

Don't really care much about the grass any more, I'm just lucky to have access to enough tiles that my horses won't drop dead or miscarriage 99% of the time

Edited July 19, 2013 by san_tropez

[JudusX 199]

with

 

Not really...I don't want to see animals horded anymore. By having enchanted grass permanent -  it allows free feeding of animals while reducing by a large % the amount of maintenance required to keep large sized animal farms - thereby increasing ..overall... the number of players that have huge animal farms - thereby locking up more animals that other new players or players that have never had the opportunity to participate in animal husbandry, have available, due to animals being horded. Removing permanency from enchanted grass is just one of many steps that needed to be done to ensure such a thing does not happen again. Im not against large animal farms...just think their should be very few of them - and those that put the time and effort into them should be the ones that reap the rewards - not the idler, come online once a month people, who... by default....lock up content. I started the game during the time of animal hoarding...it sucked - and I support any effort to reduce the frequency of hoarding..and thereby increase available content for everyone. I don't care for a handful of players that "own" the content...so to speak.

 

The 1x2's are a reminder of that time - and they simply piss me off.

 

So in short - having permanent grass available is not a solution..it only pushes the game back into the past...it needs to go forward.

 

So now that 1. Enchanted grass is gone - no free feeding 2. Animal ratio is in - no 10000 animals per deed  and 3. Spawning mechanics have changed = End Result, which  = Wild horses all over the server - and not just horses, pigs, dogs, deer, cattle.(when I first started playing it was not possible to find wild anything on the server) Anyone that wants to get into animal husbandry can - and they are not required to either depend on someones charity to give them the animals they are looking for or be forced to pay ridiculously high prices just to get into AH...the barriers to entry have been removed so that everyone now can enjoy that content...that was  (when I first started playing) locked out to all but those that were willing to pay or knew someone.

 

Only thing is now that the animal capacity has been raised i dont think animals not spawning on the servers is gunna be an issue anymore. The real crappy part of all this is most of the people that spent the time and effort in getting to lvl 7 path of love are pissed, its worthless now and i for one feel cheated of my time and money.

[leaf 283]

I think that people are forgetting the ratios and difficulty in breeding off-deed, timers added before they can get pregnant again, inbreeding, etc.

 

My moderate (18-20) herd supplies 8 people with work animals and their 170 tile enchanted pen is off-deed..  Recently they were getting up there in age and I decided to rebreed them all.  Out of 8 horses pregnant, 2 died of miscarriage (i'm assuming) and 2 more are no longer pregnant - i'm assuming a miscarriage that they lived through. 1 gave birth and the remaining 3 are still in their pregnancy.

 

Not related to enchanted grass, but my flock of 5 hens is down to 2. Only reason I still have any left is because they are cared for, haven't had an egg hatch in months.

 

It's not just enchanted grass that was changed.  It's like there is a war against letting us keep animals at all. 

 

 

***Logged in today and out of my herd of 10 cows - 5 male, 5 female - 2 of the females are dead.  Both were pregnant.

Edited July 21, 2013 by leaf

[Alyeska 2,621]

Especially now that saddled horses do not move on their own anymore, I am finding much of my enchanted grass gets packed, and the riding horses with saddles starve to death when I am away for a few days. It made me sad to find just a pile of horseshoes and a saddle, on  packed tile, where my dear "sweetheart" horse used to be

 

 

For the people who suggested a tree tile with some grass tiles around it, so that the packed grass my get re-grown on it's own; that only works off-deed. Packed tiles on a deed will never turn back to dirt unless cultivated with a shovel or rake. I do not like to occupy land that I do not own; that's why I bought a large deed and made my pastures there. It would seem a bit silly that keeping horses and other livestock on land you do not pay for is better than on paid land, at least to me it does.

[Talilon 57]

I just had enchanted grass revert back to normal grass overnight so there is no way it packed and re-grew grass. Seems like that bug still has not been fixed which may be a huge part of why enchanted grass decays so quickly.

[outlander 30]

WOW, this time it might work!!  

 

Good idea have a vote on a topic that already has three threads dedicated to it!!!  

 

This is certain to do UTTERLY NOTHING!!!

 

I like enchanted grass the way it is.  Needing to "keep" animals rather than another a milk-toast solution on a PVP server keeps people distracted which reduces the PVE "i want the bonus but no threat or strain" mindsets from crossing the portal......who cares what they do in PVE land; give them normal grass with zero trample that lasts forever and enchanted grass that cures sickness for all I care. 

LoL, 30 days later not a single change in either the grass, my stance or the Dev focus.

 

At what point does a topic itself become a Troll?!   It is clear grass is not going to change and it is QUITE clear that 30+ days of whining, begging and pleading are not going to change it.  So again when is a enough enough and done is done?

[outlander 30]

 

 

There have been many great ideas on a compromise in this thread, including adjusting enchanted grass decay rate so it isn't as hard to keep up, or adding grass levels to enchanted grass so that it can be eaten down but not packed but I have yet to see a single developer comment in here, or give any indication that they are  listening to our suggestions and feedback.  I'm very disappointed with the lack of response especially considering Wurms small player base, the response to this thread is huge

You forgot to include the option that it is just a dumb idea that serves the needs of a small group of people within a small player base.  I am disappointed that there has been no GM response to just close this whole thread as the whining leaking out of it is now reaching a point of self serving.  Just because there are 2000+ posts does not make this a huge discussion just means that about 10 of you have posted well over 100 times.  You should take my scorn, others logic and the GM/Devs ignoring this as a sign......

[Talilon 57]

LoL, 30 days later not a single change in either the grass, my stance or the Dev focus.

 

At what point does a topic itself become a Troll?!   It is clear grass is not going to change and it is QUITE clear that 30+ days of whining, begging and pleading are not going to change it.  So again when is a enough enough and done is done?

 

 

Feel free to ignore this topic if it bothers you so much.  

The purpose of this thread is to keep devs aware of player concerns in this area which I feel it is doing rather well. 

I never expected immediate change, but I'm positive that eventually the bugs and kinks will be worked out to the best of the game, and the player base. The only other option is to stand by and do nothing which I've never been very good at.

[WesncIsMe 492]

I would state my opinion but its like arguing with a brick wall on this forum

[Shiraek 464]

Just to share the info I haven't had an enchanted grass tile pack on deed for many weeks now. I have a few hundred of them, a 22x23 deed and almost 15 ratio so quite a few animals. I use three large pens, little ones look like animal cruelty to me

 

At the current rate I think I lose maybe one or two tiles a month - quite manageable. If everyone else's experience is like that, I would vote for the current situation to remain. Immortal enchanted grass felt overpowered to me, especially for something you can get at just 30 meditation skill. What's that, a one week casual grind? I don't remember it being a big challenge.

 

You could always make a more powerful resilient kind of grass at a higher love path level or something, but I would never advocate permanent enchanted grass.

[outlander 30]

Feel free to ignore this topic if it bothers you so much.  

The purpose of this thread is to keep devs aware of player concerns in this area which I feel it is doing rather well. 

I never expected immediate change, but I'm positive that eventually the bugs and kinks will be worked out to the best of the game, and the player base. The only other option is to stand by and do nothing which I've never been very good at.

 

 

No, I wont ignore it as I feel a counter voice is needed.  A voice to express that some people (clearly not you) think grass now works fine and touching it would only serve a small section of people (clearly you).  This change was part of the no hoarding animals fixes (which i think were good) so in my mind as grass is already set the best for the game and the player base (well minus you).  I disagree with your purpose it seems to me (can quote you your own comments if you like) that you are attempting to badger the Devs into doing what you want and actively trying to hush those who disagree with you.  I for one think it might be a time to post a vote on closing this thread or at least vote on getting you sticks to beat the horse more effectively.  As you said my only other option is to stand by and watch you whine your way into a change I think is worthless...see I am not good at standing around either when I see something I too rise up.  So you must forgive me for using the same rights you feel you have; unless you got a reason why your rant should be allowed and mine should just go away (being a jerk does not count FYI).

So many lines to state that you a jerk.

Worked fine, everyone know now.

goodbye

See last month taking that stance did nothing but confuse me as I thought YOU were leaving.  I hope I get a clearer response from you this time than I did last month.  I kept the lines count down (an issue for you) yet was able to still state how I think what you are trying to do is bad for the game (which I guess makes me a jerk). I hope the picture helped this time too as I did not need to explain in text how the majority of people ARE NOT beating the horse only a few are.   

Edited July 25, 2013 by outlander

[Kagrenac 812]

My enchanted grass is 100% fine, other than occasionally getting covered up by mycillium.

[Emane 158]

 especially for something you can get at just 30 meditation skill. What's that, a one week casual grind? I don't remember it being a big challenge.

 

 

 

Huge change there I suppose....Have meditated my 5x a day for 4 days now with 0 ...yep 0 meditation gains. Been this way for months now...then maybe a good day and I get 3 gains of .02 in a row...before reverting again to a string of days with no gains...yes I use SB when meditating, and am sure I moved my ten tiles...and that the skillgain timer (30 minutes) has passed. 

[Kegan 3,926]

With the ratio on and off deed i don't really see any need to pack any tiles anymore not just enchanted grass but steppe, grass..well anything. Lets let wurm be pretty again and stop the packing of any tiles unless it is done with a shovel. 

Edited July 25, 2013 by Kegan

[Talilon 57]

Just to share the info I haven't had an enchanted grass tile pack on deed for many weeks now. I have a few hundred of them, a 22x23 deed and almost 15 ratio so quite a few animals. I use three large pens, little ones look like animal cruelty to me

 

At the current rate I think I lose maybe one or two tiles a month - quite manageable. If everyone else's experience is like that, I would vote for the current situation to remain. Immortal enchanted grass felt overpowered to me, especially for something you can get at just 30 meditation skill. What's that, a one week casual grind? I don't remember it being a big challenge.

 

You could always make a more powerful resilient kind of grass at a higher love path level or something, but I would never advocate permanent enchanted grass.

 

That's so strange. My deed is much larger, with a ratio of 130 and I've been having enchanted grass packed much more often, sometimes more than one tile a day(highest packed in one day was 4). I also feel that large pens look much better so most of my animals are in a large pasture, with a few 1x2 pens for easy access to certain animals. the 1x2 pens almost never pack, while the large pen packs all the time which seems to indicate that wurm developers want you to use smaller pens  

 

Also, not sure how long ago you leveled up meditation, but now after 20 skill there is a waiting time between gains similar to faith for priests so it takes forever to get to 30 skill.

[Hussars 511]

Just to share the info I haven't had an enchanted grass tile pack on deed for many weeks now. I have a few hundred of them, a 22x23 deed and almost 15 ratio so quite a few animals. I use three large pens, little ones look like animal cruelty to me

 

At the current rate I think I lose maybe one or two tiles a month - quite manageable. If everyone else's experience is like that, I would vote for the current situation to remain. Immortal enchanted grass felt overpowered to me, especially for something you can get at just 30 meditation skill. What's that, a one week casual grind? I don't remember it being a big challenge.

 

You could always make a more powerful resilient kind of grass at a higher love path level or something, but I would never advocate permanent enchanted grass.

Depending on your luck when meditation skill ticks occur.. sure, you could do it in about 15 - 20 days if you hit every skill gain without fail.. but you're still needing 70.5 days from start to finish just to get to level 7, IF you get a question AND you don't answer it incorrectly..

 

(Source: http://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Meditating)

 

I know I've gone hours without getting the danged question on a 70+ql Exquisite rug.  So if you're really unlucky, it'll be closer to 75+ days (or longer) if you don't search the web for the meditation answers.  And almost 100 days from start to finish if you only miss the level 7 question once.

 

Again, not asking for "forever grass", but really wish changes to these things were given more thought from feedback/player input before they're changed, instead of after.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Hussars

[joedobo 1,187]

It would add value to this game if we had a way to reduce silly recurring chores like provided food for animals not being used. Being that meditation takes effort and deeds cost money I think that's fair compensation to making forever food.

 

If you (yes you reader) want a realistic experience where you need to feed your animals daily then do just that. You can go pick mixed grass and drop piles every day. But DON"T come here and start saying everyone else should be force to play your way!

 

Tiles per an animal ratio works. Now it's time to remove all the mechanics that didn't work!

 

edit 1: I'd like to see a system where as long as your ratio is at least 15 enchanted grass will never pack. If it falls below 15 the grass is more likely to pack. Perhaps have enchanted grass act like normal grass for packing if ratio is below 15.

Edited July 26, 2013 by joedobo

[joedobo 1,187]

LoL, 30 days later not a single change in either the grass, my stance or the Dev focus.

 

At what point does a topic itself become a Troll?!   It is clear grass is not going to change and it is QUITE clear that 30+ days of whining, begging and pleading are not going to change it.  So again when is a enough enough and done is done?

It will take more than 30 days. You clearly don't understand this process. Or you are trying to discourage others from expressing their opinion, one which you disagree with. We can go back in history and see many instances where popular player opinion did in fact force devs to undo/redo something. 

 

At what point do we label posts as detrimental whose only intent is to insult others with words like "whining", "Trolling".  Dude why not just say, "I like grass and don't' want it changed"?  Why not seek out reasons why enchanted grass should not be forever? Both of those two paths will produce better results then the choice you've made.

 

lol,  I need to make a rubber stamp form letter response for your posts because this is not the first time I've felt the need to write something like this.  And don't pm me, I will just delete it, I'm not interested in talking to you in private. I posted this in an effort to stick-up for other's right to express their opinions. 

[outlander 30]

It will take more than 30 days. You clearly don't understand this process. Or you are trying to discourage others from expressing their opinion, one which you disagree with. We can go back in history and see many instances where popular player opinion did in fact force devs to undo/redo something. 

 

At what point do we label posts as detrimental whose only intent is to insult others with words like "whining", "Trolling".  Dude why not just say, "I like grass and don't' want it changed"?  Why not seek out reasons why enchanted grass should not be forever? Both of those two paths will produce better results then the choice you've made.

 

lol,  I need to make a rubber stamp form letter response for your posts because this is not the first time I've felt the need to write something like this.  And don't pm me, I will just delete it, I'm not interested in talking to you in private. I posted this in an effort to stick-up for other's right to express their opinions.

Really?  I was being nice counting the days "this" thread was open.   If you want to really get down and dirty.   The user who started this not really working for you guy's thread ALSO started:

 

Enchanted Grass Decay Too High?

Started by Talilon, Apr 10 2013 08:35 AM

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/79121-enchanted-grass-decay-too-high/?hl=+enchanted +grass

 

Which is sort of interesting when this went no-where two and half months later he starts this thread to "get some numbers".  Even with numbers 30+ days later you all are on the same path you were 4 months ago....no-where.  So maybe it is your camp that does not know how these things work.  I know you said it might take longer but I want to remind you that this whole topic has gone on much longer.

 

Almost a year ago on Nov 2012 (that is TWENTY TWELVE) Rolf made pretty clear his feelings on the changes he made and would make when he said:

 

 

The rate of packing due to grazing was overnerfed and will be reduced to 30% of the current situation next update.

Note that you're actually supposed to feed your animals manually (or keep fewer) and not be able to keep a large amount of enchanted grass tiles live. Enchanted grass was overpowered so to speak.

 

  http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/69657-rate-of-enchanted-grass-packing-is-way-too-high/page-3#entry687425

 

Is that enough time?   Do you need a full year? lol

 

You seem to fault me for doing the VERY SAME thing your side of the discussion is doing and I didn't see you tell them to sit down (do you need me to link those for you?).  I do not waste time so I call a spade a spade and whining whining;  the only thing I am not guilty of is starting a bunch of threads on a topic the game creator answered, adjusted more to his statement and has not said anything since.

 

You can feel free to priv message me all you want or we can continue to play here if you like.  I will discuss it anywhere because I (like you) am just sticking up for my and other's right to express this this is a terrible idea whenever you all say it is great.  I will play along with you, "I like grass the way it is, think anyone who suggest it is bad wants to be a hoarder and I enjoy the fallout by people like you as try to make Rolf change.  Almost a year is a long time to hear no, but you all have been IGNORED and still keeping going what is not to love about that?" .  

So in closing know you are no different than me do not let yourself think otherwise.  Only difference outside our stances is you just took longer and used kinder words to call me a troll   A trait I think whiners have.

Edited July 26, 2013 by outlander