Discussion about auction with no pm-bidding

[Coach 196]

Someone encourage me to start a post about pm-bidding in auction. Because of the misunderstanding in some posts, and i think this is a good place to discuss it without fingers pointing. I will make a post here.

 

Lets define what is pm-bidding. Here is the example.

Starting bid: 1s.
Increment (minimum): 1s.
No reserve.
No buyout.
Sniper Protection: 1 hour.
"No private bids accepted. If you want to bid but don't have a forum account, feel free to pm me in-game with your bid and I'll comment on this thread with your in-game name and bid amount. Your pm-bidding will not be private." 

Pm-bidding means OP will adding both the ingame name as well as bid amount if bid is received by ingame pm, in other words, that no bids will be private. 

 

There is no tools at least for now to make sure that the pm-bidding posted by OP is from other guy rather than from an alt of OP(aka OP). So OP give people a chance or environment to accuse OP being bad.

For example, OP gave people an environment to say "OP just make a pm-bidding with an alt(aka OP) with different name. Then consider to continue to bid the item or not". I am not saying the OP is bad. I am saying OP gave people a chance or environment to make OP look bad. This should be avoided. 

 

Why i prefer no pm-bidding? Because u actually erase the chance or environment for people to call each other bad. 

 

Most people in wurm are decent people, won't do something like making an auction and start pm-bidding with their alts and raise the price as the person want. The idea is similar to reserve, instead of telling people u haven't reached the reserve, the OP pm-bidding with an alt to reach the desire price. If it didn't reach the desire price, OP trade with OP's alt with the current alt bidding price. Which make the item still owned by OP's alt (aka OP).

 

I have to say that most people are decent people in wurm again. However, since wurm will keep attract people to play the game and might expand to a huge amount of population. We cannot guarantee there is no bad people because of the huge population and there is no tools to verify whether the pm-bidding is from OP's alt(aka OP) or not. So making a good habit, behaviour, environment or culture from now is for the future of wurm. Habit should always start from now.

 

That's why auction should be without pm-bidding until they find a way to verify the bids and people. 

 

Also private bids doesn't mean pm-bidding since "Your pm-bidding will not be private." mentioned earlier. People shouldn't compare private bids to pm-bidding. This is a discussion about no pm-bidding compare to pm-bidding. This is not a discussion about private bids compare to pm-bidding.

[Nordlys 1,429]

The player who runs the auction decides how the auction will run. If someone doesnt like how its done they can easily refrain from bidding.

[Coach 196]

Just now, Nordlys said:

The player who runs the auction decides how the auction will run. If someone doesnt like how its done they can easily refrain from bidding.

Yes, i agree. However, i should mention or make a discussion to people there is a chance that OP is from other guy rather than from an alt of OP(aka OP). Can i? Because there is no tools to verify the bids and people at least for now. Some newbie just don't know the OP is decent guy or not. The solution, is to erase the chance or environment for people to say there is a chance, which is no pm-bidding until they find a way to verify the bids and people. 

[McGarnicle 1,463]

There is always a chance that a forum bid is from an alt account of the OP’s. so even if the auction does not allow pm bids, there is no way to eliminate the chance of this happening.

[Nomadikhan 2,198]

Sadly it doesn't have to be an alt to simply post SuchnSuch bid Amount.  Any auctioner can fake a bid for more profit.  There is no system in place to prevent this nor can the staff be expected to enact any policy or rule against it, there is no real way to prove it aside from further work of the staff.  I agree with Nordly, and I personally do as such, f I see an auction that does not forbid Private bidding or anonymous bidding, I look elsewhere for my items.

[Madnath 3,113]

When I ran auctions on fancy compasses, I'd sometimes get PM bids because a player might be staff. It seems there's been times in the past where folks on the team have been smeared because someone doesn't like an official bidding on a player auction.

 

I can understand the fears though, even if I personally think it's not justified. Private bids are risky but potentially gainful, and artificially drive up value. I think if I was to run an auction again in the future, I'd only allow individuals on staff to bid via private PM.

[Coach 196]

On 1/23/2022 at 10:26 PM, McGarnicle said:

There is always a chance that a forum bid is from an alt account of the OP’s. so even if the auction does not allow pm bids, there is no way to eliminate the chance of this happening.

Yes, there is no way to eliminate the chance of this happening(forum bid is from an alt account of the OP’s) at least for now but i believe it will decrease the chance of this happening OP using alts(no matter its an alt pm-bid or alt forum bid) to bid. I believe u are saying people making an alt forum account to bid instead of pm-bidding. The chance u were saying is, there is a chance for people to accuse OP such as making an alt account on forum and bid.

But the chance i am saying is the chance of OP using alts to bid aka cheating (no matter its an alt pm-bid or alt forum bid).

But u can see what the quantity and quality of posts on the alt forum account, use these info to decide u should keep bidding or not, but pm-bidding u just have the pm-bidding price and name to consider, insufficient information(can't convince me to bid) to decide. 
Making a good quantity and quality(can convince me to bid) of posts need a lot of times(months) and efforts(read and type a lot), which made this hard then people might give up to do this. That's why i say this will decrease the chance of a forum bid is from an alt account of the OP’s OP using alts(no matter its a alt pm-bid or alt forum bid) to bid.

No pm-bidding, good persuasive alt forum account hard to make lead to decrease the chance of OP using alts(no matter its a alt pm-bid or alt forum bid) to bid . 

Allow pm-bidding, good persuasive alt forum account hard to make lead to increase the chance of OP using alts(no matter its a alt pm-bid or alt forum bid) to bid, because the OP keep using the easier pm-bidding method(hours) to cheat.

That's why no pm-bidding should be use to reducing cheating chance, they can only do it in a hard way which is put times and efforts(months) to maintain a decent alt forum account to bid, eventually they might give up because its hard.

Not allowing people to cheat easily is the intention of this post, if u want to cheat, u can only do it in a hard way.

Edited to explain the idea precisely. The edit words are italic.

 

On 1/23/2022 at 10:29 PM, Nomadikhan said:

Any auctioner can fake a bid for more profit.  There is no system in place to prevent this

Yes, we don't have a system in place to prevent any auctioner can fake a bid for more profit. However, what we can do is telling people that pm-bidding is not encouraged because we don't want to give people an environment to call each other bad. 
We can make a stand about we are not tolerate people to make fake alts to bid by saying pm-bidding auction is not suggested or even not allowed, and people have enough awareness to see the possibility of fake alts bidding now, even though we don't have a system to prevent.

Because pm-bidding is not encouraged or suggested, less/no OP will make pm-bidding in auction. Less/no chance and environment for people to accuse OP being bad and making fake pm-bidding. Less drama.

The idea is similar to the recent "Base Jumpers Beware!" they make a stand about base jumping is not allowed, at the same time they are finding a a mechanical solution(the system u have said) to fix. 

 

On 1/23/2022 at 11:14 PM, Madnath said:

I'd sometimes get PM bids because a player might be staff.

On 1/23/2022 at 11:14 PM, Madnath said:

Private bids are risky but potentially gainful, and artificially drive up value.

U got PM bids but did u type pm-bidding is allowed or not in ur official forum auction. We are talking about official forum auction with or without pm-bidding. We are not talking private bids. "Also private bids doesn't mean pm-bidding." as i mentioned.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Coach

[Kellen 77]

Welcome to auctions. Real life auctions have this exact same thing you're complaining about.

[Coach 196]

40 minutes ago, Kellen said:

Welcome to auctions. Real life auctions have this exact same thing you're complaining about.

Welcome to wurm online, we are talking about auction with no pm-bidding in wurm online. I have reasons to say why no pm-bidding should be in wurm online forum auction. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Coach

[Shrimpiie 3,665]

Considering auctions in Wurm Online are entirely player run, I see no reason for disallowing PM-bidding. If you don't like it or don't trust it, don't bid on it.

[Pandalet 1,848]

Just to be clear, there's no such thing as an ''official' auction* - all auctions are player-run, and staff do not get involved, nor will we adjudicate between parties when they go wrong.  As always, your reputation is yours, and you are free to run your auctions however you please, or to bid (or not) in whatever auctions you wish.  We do offer a set of guidelines on how to run auctions, to help those who aren't sure, but they are guidelines, not absolute requirements; you can ignore them if you wish.

 

It is essentially impossible to stop bad actors putting in shill bids, no matter what rules we put in place - to do this, we would have to fundamentally change how the game and forums work, and that brings a whole other set of problems, so it's not going to happen.

 

*there are, very rarely, auctions run by the Wurm team in an official capacity - these may be promotions or disposing of seized ill-gotten gains.  These are very rare (I can think of maybe 3 since I joined the staff team), and they're really obvious when you see them.

[Coach 196]

1 hour ago, Shrimpiie said:

Considering auctions in Wurm Online are entirely player run

 

1 hour ago, Coach said:

saying pm-bidding auction is not suggested or even not allowed

 

1 hour ago, Coach said:

pm-bidding is not encouraged

I said "pm-bidding auction is not suggested, pm-bidding is not encouraged" means its just an idea, not compulsory.

Of course player can decide to use pm-bidding or not but there are reasons why people should use no pm-bidding in auction. 

I use the word "even" means its up to the devs to decide its allow or disallowed. I am fine with whatever decision they make, but i am giving an idea for people to discuss.

 

1 hour ago, Shrimpiie said:

If you don't like it or don't trust it, don't bid on it.

Yes, but i will mention it. Because i see there is a chance people make fake alts and bid and we can decrease the chance of this happening. And a chance and environment to accuse the pm-bidding auction OP being pm-bidding with OP's alt on the forum, can be erase. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Coach

[Morbidae 417]

I am seriously wondering if pointing fingers at people starting an auction is the "New Thing" to do in Wurm lately.
If someone doesnt wanna bid - ok it's fine your choice, but don't herrass other people by pointing fingers and calling them out. It's not only nasty, but especially when it comes to people doing first time auction it is killing their reputation and fun to the game.
Can we maybe just stop this silly behavior and be nice again?

Edited January 23, 2022 by Morbidae
corrected some spelling mistakes

[Yaga 2,892]

I am lost. I don't understand why you (the OP) are so fiercely clinging to this topic, and what you actually want to achieve with this thread. I understand you dislike a certain way of running auctions; ok, that's fine. I also dislike a lot of things in life and in this game, but I usually don't start epic discussions about them. I politely suggest you accept that not everybody shares your opinion (that's how life works) and just drop the subject. You made your point.

 

[Morbidae 417]

13 minutes ago, Yaga said:

I am lost. I don't understand why you (the OP) are so fiercely clinging to this topic, and what you actually want to achieve with this thread. I understand you dislike a certain way of running auctions; ok, that's fine. I also dislike a lot of things in life and in this game, but I usually don't start epic discussions about them. I politely suggest you accept that not everybody shares your opinion (that's how life works) and just drop the subject. You made your point.

 

I am actually wondering if it has to do with this auction and his comment underneath:

 

Cuz that post of him was totally unnecessary as were those from Ssmokes and Reverent. And I felt those were pretty nasty and hurt the auction. One could have just pointed stuff out and explain instead of pointing fingers and making someone else look and feel bad.

[Kellen 77]

44 minutes ago, Morbidae said:

I am actually wondering if it has to do with this auction and his comment underneath:

 

Cuz that post of him was totally unnecessary as were those from Ssmokes and Reverent. And I felt those were pretty nasty and hurt the auction. One could have just pointed stuff out and explain instead of pointing fingers and making someone else look and feel bad.

 

How was the post from Ssmokes unnecessary? He just pointed out that the last bid ended in an amount lower than the reserve so the auction would have been cancelled.

 

The first part of Borstaskor's post was just explaining what a reserve is and why most people don't use then.

[Aeris 3,764]

Erasing the stripes from a zebra doesn't make it a horse - They'll still be there even if you can't see them. So if you think a certain person will try to cheat you they won't stop trying to do that because you remove private bids.

 

If you don't trust someone to be honest enough not to make an army of alts to bid on their own auctions you shouldn't bid on their items. If you happen upon proof that they are doing shady things behind the scenes then by all means: Report it. But trying to get the forum moderators to enforce a strange layer of extra "protection" that ultimately will only make it harder for secretive people to buy stuff is pretty useless in my opinion.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Aeris

[Morbidae 417]

27 minutes ago, Kellen said:

 

How was the post from Ssmokes unnecessary? He just pointed out that the last bid ended in an amount lower than the reserve so the auction would have been cancelled.

 

The first part of Borstaskor's post was just explaining what a reserve is and why most people don't use then.

My bad with Ssmokes I remembered different, didn't read again when I posted it here. Thing is, this post was/is mentioned in the auction for which this thread has been opened. So somehow I feel there must be a connection.

 

Edited from here:
On top of that: it's not about how someone might have meant something unfortunatly but about how someone else does understand. Though it cleary could have been brought up in a different way in my opinion. Thing is Op of the fruitpress auction clearly wasn't ok with how it was dealt with and probably felt attacked by the first comment made.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Morbidae
Added last part of post

[Emoo 4,357]

There is legitimate reasons as already stated why someone might choose to allow PM bids on their auction item. Including but not limited to:

• They may wish to remain anonymous. This can be anything from buying a surprise birthday present for a friend, purchasing PvP related items or being a staff member. (your ingame name used to give a bid being listed is no hinderance to this)
• The seller wants to open up the auction to as many buyers as possible. As such they wish to allow people without forum accounts to bid. 

You are correct that there is a perceived lack of transparency with auctions like this and any potential auctioneers should always be mindful of this. I strongly believe though that this should always be up to the discretion of the auctioneer as it is both impractical and unimportant to police restrictions or limitations for auctions for the moderation/GM team it's self. However I would give the same advice to someone participating in Wurm auctions the same advice for Real life ones:

1. Only ever attend/participate an auction where you trust the auctioneer/seller.
2. Research or background check historic sales and auctions for similar items prior to bidding as this will give you a foundation of what to expect and help spot abnormalities. 
3. Always assign a hard value to an item you intend to bid on which will become your bidding cap. That way you will only spend what you can afford and what you perceive the fair value of the item is.
4. Do not allow yourself to be caught up in impulsive or emotional bidding.
5. If you suspect price manipulation, simply withdraw from the bidding. You can't prove it and chances are you never will, protect yourself but also be gracious because abnormalities do happen legitimately and you don't want to burn bridges.

At the end of the day, any player run economy such as Wurm will ALWAYS have as you phrase it "a chance or environment" for people to call foul play. However it is the nature of the beast and personally am totally fine with that. 

[Coach 196]

@Aeris @Yaga Make it harder for people to cheat is what i want to say, so the cheater know they need to put a lot of time and effort to cheat, and eventually give up the thought of cheating. Of course if the cheater really committed to cheat, we can't do anything because we don't have the tool to restrict them.

I know everybody have their opinions, that's why i want people express their opinions, because there might some reasonable stuffs that i am not aware of. And i can learn from them. 

Newbie like me just learn from the behaviour from the veteran or senior, try to understand how to find the cores of what they are care. 
What i saw is, some experienced people pointed out or explain reserve is a pointless in a auction post, and pointed out reserve is changed in another different auction post. 
I thought it was okay to explain pm-bidding is pointless in a auction post. However, People(OP) might understand differently that say the messager have other bad intention and eventually cause a whole bad(argument) situation. I think it also demonstrated how bad it can be if u put pm-bidding in a auction. This is why i want to open a discuss in town square instead of discussing in a current auction post and suggest no pm-bidding. 

These lead to another discussion about should u pointing out stuff while in a auction or not. 
Some people might say its just a reminder for newbie or people to notice its might be a trap of pm-bidding from OP's alt for u to bid, the intention is being nice. 
Some people might say u affect the smoothness of auction and accuse OP with a bad intention(make alt raise a bid higher) or which the intention of OP might simply just want to help(nice intention) no forum account people to get auction item in pm-bidding auction. 

[Aeris 3,764]

Don't put the burden of your fears on the people who have done you no harm, is what I'd say.

[Coach 196]

@ Emoo made some good points. a good point.

 

From a auctioneer perspective, one of the goal is to make the bid as higher as possible. 

Auctioneer open a chance for people to call auctioneer foul play(pm bid with alt) in pm-bidding allowed auction. If u are not a decent(highly respected) auctioneer, people might suspect the auctioneer more. This lead to less bids, lower price. 
The suggestion is if the auctioneer is a newbie with a new account, no pm-bidding should be in the auction because people might suspect more and accuse auctioneer being bad.

 

12 hours ago, Emoo said:

a surprise birthday present for a friend, purchasing PvP related items or being a staff member

People might only have one birthday within a year, may be they want to buy present for other events like Halloween. But i believe most people are buying the auction items for themself. This is one of the consideration to bid in a pm-bidding or not. That's why i suggest no pm-bidding.
Auctions mostly happened in PVE and at least PVE and PVP is separated on NFI. No pm-bidding should be in the auction in PVE if u are not decent player on NFI. 

 

Quote

They may wish to remain anonymous. This can be anything from buying a surprise birthday present for a friend, purchasing PvP related items or being a staff member.

I was confused, u are saying private bid in here, not pm-bidding. So its out of topic. As i said This is a discussion about no-pm-bidding compare to pm-bidding.

 

12 hours ago, Emoo said:

The seller wants to open up the auction to as many buyers as possible

From the bidder perspective, one of the goal is to make the bid as lower as possible.

So, if the auctioneer is a decent(higher respected) in pm-bidding auction, auctioneer can attract more people to bid because decrease the chance to get accusation, lead to higher price on final bid.

However, if the auctioneer is a newbie(no credit) in pm-bidding auction, this increase the chance of getting accusation, lead to less bidder,  lower price on final bid.

The auctions mostly are made by decent player for now, so bidder should suggest no pm-bidding to lower the price. Because in pm-bidding auction, decent auctioneer can attract more people to bid, lead to higher price on final bid.

So whether its is a decent or newbie auctioneer, it can lead to lower price on final bid, really depend on how the bidders think and stand.

If all the bidders realize bidders can refuse to bid in a pm-bidding auction which make the auctioneer less profit, and suggest no pm-bidding. This might make the decent auctioneer consider change to no pm-bidding from pm-bidding, lead to less buyer, lower price on final bid.

This is an idea to gather all the bidders to stand a point to make the bid as lower as possible. If the decent auctioneer can see this refuse to bid coming, they might just use no pm-bidding from the very first start to gain a higher profit.

In conclusion, all the bidders and auctioneer should use no pm-bidding. 

 

Quote

Wurm will ALWAYS have as you phrase it "a chance or environment" for people to call foul play.

There is a way to decrease the chance or environment for people to call foul play. And can erase the of chance and environment to accuse auctioneer being pm-bidding with auctioneer's alt in a pm-bidding auction. 

 

I am glad to see people point out the reasons to support pm-bidding, instead of only saying no reasons and the disadvantages of no pm-bidding.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Coach
A more clear reason for good point

[Coach 196]

53 minutes ago, Aeris said:

Don't put the burden of your fears on the people who have done you no harm, is what I'd say.

I understand what u are saying.

This is not my intention.

I don't really know what the person might thinking, for example fear u mentioned. I don't really know what situation the person is dealing with. I think this is what we need to deal with on the virtual world.

I am just saying thing with my gut. The intention is being nice with giving people tips on auctioning. This is what i said:

2 hours ago, Coach said:

Some people might say its just a reminder for newbie or people to notice its might be a trap of pm-bidding from OP's alt for u to bid, the intention is being nice.

 

Also another reason why i was saying thing like this, mentioned in the previous post:

Quote

Newbie like me just learn from the behaviour from the veteran or senior, try to understand and find the cores of what they are care. 
What i saw is, some experienced people pointed out or explain reserve is a pointless in a auction post, and pointed out reserve is changed in another different auction post.

I thought it was okay to explain pm-bidding is pointless in a auction post.

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Coach

[Archaed 2,284]

Wait till you find out the person selling has no obligation to actually sell it to the "winner" 

[Pandalet 1,848]

As this seems to be a suggestion for how things could be changed, I've moved it to the suggestions forum.