There's theft, and then there's THEFT...

[Keenan 5,539]

I pose another question: What is the difference between salvaging and stealing?

 

There's a whole sub-culture on Freedom of people who go around to disbanded deeds and "clean up the mess". I'm not talking about the moral differences - that is, a player choosing to wait so many days, perhaps even PMing the owner before taking action. I mean in the eyes of the code.

 

What I'm driving at is that by adding in more restrictions, we'll end up with more dead places full of junk just waiting for people to come back to who may never actually come back. It's bad enough that, as I said in a few other posts, I have two carts just outside my deed that I have to look at every day because they're locked and too heavy to drag. There used to be three, but one owner did come back - and he basically said he didn't want it anymore. Thankfully he signed it over to me and I gained a cart. Hooray!

 

The way things are now do work if people use them correctly. If someone you thought was a friend wrongs you, then be more selective next time. That was a lesson I learned when I found that a trusted neighbor decided to catapult my buildings to loot my items and steal my horses before my deed disbanded. He had every means to communicate with me and didn't. So do you think I put that kind of trust in just a neighbor anymore? Or better, do you think that my most valued items ever leave my inventory except for in a locked cart or boat on Freedom?

 

We don't need more rules, and we don't need more restrictions. The news announced a new system in the works, so let's just see where that takes us first? About the only fix I'd push for is a category of "friends" that don't get access when "friends" is checked.

 

I would love to see some sort of justice system though... but just how would that work? Accused by a player, and there's potential for more abuse. Accused by code, and someone will undoubtedly find a way around it. Judged by players, even more potential for abuse. Judged by GM? Then what's the point?

[Corsan 199]

So, just like the real world? Shocking.

You can't just trust everyone you meet...hence the group mentality/behavour.

 

Having GMs intervene and 'force everyone to have fun and be happy together' is never going to work.

 

I also don't expect everyone to be 'forced to have fun/be happy'. What I expect is that when a game company lays down a set of rules, that they, and their team members abide by them. (Or people speaking in an official capacity for the company, i.e. the volunteers with nametags/jobs.)

 

When they state there is no thieving allowed (ON THE LOADING SCREEN) it should be, no thieving allowed. Not some wishy washy, 'Oh we let everything slide, but instances that help/hinder our friends in some way.', barely ever act on anything, and lay rules down that serve to confuse and then have all the GM's just LAUGH at people who called them in on something/refuse to help/refuse to address the issues.

 

I myself had a griefing situation happen and took it fully up the chain, and was threatened by the head GM himself with removal from the game...when I was being griefed for nearly 7 months (By a staff member, and then later by their friends/some of the long timers.) after I started as a noob. I reported numerous occurances. They simply SHUT most of my support tickets/brushed them off/didn't action anything. You know what my response to that was? I stopped paying them and left for 3 months. They are LUCKY I came back, or that would've been one less revenue stream.

 

Now, guess what happens when numerous people decide they've had enough? That's not just one revenue stream anymore. That's whole groups of your income/development ability/that's their livelihood.

 

This is the fire they are playing with by ignoring/making this issue worse.

[Keenan 5,539]

I also don't expect everyone to be 'forced to have fun/be happy'. What I expect is that when a game company lays down a set of rules, that they, and their team members abide by them. (Or people speaking in an official capacity for the company, i.e. the volunteers with nametags/jobs.)

 

When they state there is no thieving allowed (ON THE LOADING SCREEN) it should be, no thieving allowed. Not some wishy washy, 'Oh we let everything slide, but instances that help/hinder our friends in some way.', barely ever act on anything, and lay rules down that serve to confuse and then have all the GM's just LAUGH at people who called them in on something/refuse to help/refuse to address the issues.

 

I myself had a griefing situation happen and took it fully up the chain, and was threatened by the head GM himself with removal from the game...when I was being griefed for nearly 7 months (By a staff member, and then later by their friends/some of the long timers.) after I started as a noob. I reported numerous occurances. They simply SHUT most of my support tickets/brushed them off/didn't action anything. You know what my response to that was? I stopped paying them and left for 3 months. They are LUCKY I came back, or that would've been one less revenue stream.

 

Now, guess what happens when numerous people decide they've had enough? That's not just one revenue stream anymore. That's whole groups of your income/development ability/that's their livelihood.

 

This is the fire they are playing with by ignoring/making this issue worse.

 

The loading screen is not the official rules. They can be found here: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/123123-wurm-rules/

 

The GMs do uphold the rules as stated in that post. As for the mention on the loading screen, this is regarding the Right Click > Steal option, which is disallowed by code on Freedom.

[Corsan 199]

The loading screen is not the official rules. They can be found here: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/123123-wurm-rules/

 

The GMs do uphold the rules as stated in that post. As for the mention on the loading screen, this is regarding the Right Click > Steal option, which is disallowed by code on Freedom.

 

They also had a no griefing policy (I'm not sure if it's changed, as I haven't looked at the most recent version.) within the forum rules, and yet I was continuously harrassed/harangued that whole time...(I provided them with 2 full forum emails of logs...and was busy compiling the logs for 5+ MORE months of harassment when they SHUT MY TICKET again/and stopped answering me.)

 

I get the anger these people have over these situations, I was extremely mad when they just 'blew me off'. I can only imagine what it's like to also have lost things/everything you'd worked so hard on...but also be given this same attitude. It's like a double smack in the face.

 

Why would you want to stick around on a game that devalues many hours of your work on a supposedly protected server? I sure wouldn't.

 

I also get where you're coming from with the whole PvP side, because you guys can just track them down/kill them/pillage their village/deed, loot back what was stolen, and basically just cackle in their faces. We have no luxury like that. We're carebears remember? We're forced to live within the confines of certain rulesets over here. Therefore, we're also supposed to be 'more protected' by those same features...

[Keenan 5,539]

They also had a no griefing policy (I'm not sure if it's changed, as I haven't looked at the most recent version.) within the forum rules, and yet I was continuously harrassed/harangued that whole time...(I provided them with 2 full forum emails of logs...and was busy compiling the logs for 5+ MORE months of harassment when they SHUT MY TICKET again/and stopped answering me.)

 

I get the anger these people have over these situations, I was extremely mad when they just 'blew me off'. I can only imagine what it's like to also have lost things/everything you'd worked so hard on...but also be given this same attitude. It's like a double smack in the face.

 

Why would you want to stick around on a game that devalues many hours of your work on a supposedly protected server? I sure wouldn't.

 

I also get where you're coming from with the whole PvP side, because you guys can just track them down/kill them/pillage their village/deed, loot back what was stolen, and basically just cackle in their faces. We have no luxury like that. We're carebears remember? We're forced to live within the confines of certain rulesets over here. Therefore, we're also supposed to be 'more protected' by those same features...

 

I obviously can't comment on the griefing. I'm merely a purveyor of information (often information provided by other people). 

 

As for the protection provided by Freedom - you don't really see exactly what that protection is until you've gone to Chaos or Epic. I can right-click > steal things as long as they aren't stored in a kingdom structure I don't have permissions on. (And if I had permissions, I wouldn't need to steal). The protections are basically this:

 

You cannot steal any items owned by another via right-click steal.

You cannot catapult walls of a structure that does not belong to you or exist on your deed.

You cannot drain a token of upkeep.

You cannot attack a player without consent (duel/spar)

You cannot pick locks that do not belong to you.

You cannot commandeer a vehicle that doesn't belong to you.

 

That's about it.

 

If you don't use permissions properly - on either side of the ocean - you're in for trouble. Any idea how many times people have managed to gain access to things on Chaos just because they were added to friends and then defected? Or a spy all along? Yes, the difference is - with numbers and work - we can kill them and take back the loot (unless it's ferried to Freedom and sold, which does happen quite a bit and is unfortunate.)

[Corsan 199]

I obviously can't comment on the griefing. I'm merely a purveyor of information (often information provided by other people). 

 

As for the protection provided by Freedom - you don't really see exactly what that protection is until you've gone to Chaos or Epic. I can right-click > steal things as long as they aren't stored in a kingdom structure I don't have permissions on. (And if I had permissions, I wouldn't need to steal). The protections are basically this:

 

You cannot steal any items owned by another via right-click steal.

You cannot catapult walls of a structure that does not belong to you or exist on your deed.

You cannot drain a token of upkeep.

You cannot attack a player without consent (duel/spar)

You cannot pick locks that do not belong to you.

You cannot commandeer a vehicle that doesn't belong to you.

 

That's about it.

 

If you don't use permissions properly - on either side of the ocean - you're in for trouble. Any idea how many times people have managed to gain access to things on Chaos just because they were added to friends and then defected? Or a spy all along? Yes, the difference is - with numbers and work - we can kill them and take back the loot (unless it's ferried to Freedom and sold, which does happen quite a bit and is unfortunate.)

 

Then there appears to be a disconnect between what the game devs consider to be thieving/stealing, and what the playerbase thinks is. The devs are thinking of the in-game features, while most of these people seem to be thinking in terms of 'My stuff disappeared! I thought that wasn't allowed?!?!'

 

Not many of them think in terms of hard coded features like that. (I somewhat do, because I actually would like to be a world builder, and have 'fiddled' with some things like building Starcraft maps, and other game-building programs.)

 

They are wondering where their hard coded features to PREVENT it from happening are, and why nothing is being done about the rash of current thieving (Which once again, isn't the hard coded version you refer to.).

[Keenan 5,539]

Then there appears to be a disconnect between what the game devs consider to be thieving/stealing, and what the playerbase thinks is. The devs are thinking of the in-game features, while most of these people seem to be thinking in terms of 'My stuff disappeared! I thought that wasn't allowed?!?!'

 

Not many of them think in terms of hard coded features like that. (I somewhat do, because I actually would like to be a world builder, and have 'fiddled' with some things like building Starcraft maps, and other game-building programs.)

 

They are wondering where their hard coded features to PREVENT it from happening are, and why nothing is being done about the rash of current thieving (Which once again, isn't the hard coded version you refer to.).

 

What you're missing is that there are a LOT of people in Wurm. There are a LOT of players, like me, that understand the features - mostly because I've spent countless hours reading the Wiki as a newbie - and we don't see the same problems. We see people who didn't read, or didn't know or understand. I can also tell you from reading these forums that it's really the same people that comment about all of these "issues". If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say maybe two dozen people, max? Last night there was nearly 1200 people in Wurm. The numbers really don't add up to a massive problem. It's just a popular problem and being commented on by some of the most vocal people on the forum.

 

If you were to go by what you read here, everyone is getting griefed, stolen from, scammed, or some other horrible thing.

 

If you go by the actual numbers, it's a far smaller percentage. 

 

That's why threats to take your subscription and that everyone's going to leave really don't say much as there are more people like me that won't be going anywhere on account of a little theft or griefing. Do you see what I'm saying?

[Corsan 199]

 

Do you see what I'm saying?

 

I see that they appear to still be rolling around in enough of a bed of money for them to obviously not care about fixing these things, which is being supported by a certain 'clique' of people who are benefitting from it, at the expense of others. (Which is often-times the people who are protected the least...F2P players who've just started, are learning the game, and have the least coded out protections of them all.)

 

If the intention is to scare off new players, sure, go ahead and keep it up.

 

I know you've been 're-working' the wiki, so it'll be more helpful, but I think the devs also need to stop being so tightlipped about a lot of game features and need to document some of this stuff better/explain it. Yeah, maybe our new update to permissions will help a bit, but I don't see it solving many of the current issues. There will always be issues, because nothing is ever perfect, but this swiss cheese of a system needs to get re-worked.

[Cista 430]

 

The spirit of an MMO is people working together. 

 

I don't know what game it is you have been playing, but there is no game that encourages teamwork as Wurm. For example, I have played for 2 full years now and I have created 3 deeds so far, and yet I have never built a house. All my houses have been built by my wonderful friends that I have met in this game.

 

The mechanisms of Wurm, the permission systems, are what makes all this wonderful collaboration possible. These systems work 99,9 % great, and are always being adjusted to weed out exploits.

 

In all your posts you have said nothing but bad things about Wurm. You portray it as a very dangerous environment where innocent players get abused. But all the people that love and enjoy Wurm see it very differently, and we don't want the freedom and the ability to share things, to take each other's things when working together, taken away from us. We treasure the responsibility that comes with this freedom, and we learn to manage it with the deed and friend permission systems.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Cista

[rixk 830]

I find it interesting, how in attempt to fight it, theft was simply made legal.. But what the change achieved was how staff can now wash their hands clean and say to their customers, that now this isn't our problem, it is your problem. How much work it gave previously, we can assume, it isn't small problem. So the workload has decreased for sure, but has it solved any problems on servers? No, it is even worse, while earlier the customers could at least turn to someone with their problem... yes, the result wasn't always in your favor, but at least you knew, that someone was trying to help you with your problem.. Now there is nothing you can do, GMs spend their time only thinking more excuses why they can't help you.. and how sorry they feel. It doesn't work like this, that you choose only the easy cases, which you can solve easily(someone stuck etc) and tell, that the harder cases are not your problem at all.

I think for top dogs in staff it is time to sit back for a while and think about what are customer support and rules in the first place. Are those for the customers or are they for making GMs lives easy?

Edited July 6, 2015 by rixk

[JakeRivers 2,921]

I got a chuckle out of this because his cart was nearly stolen twice because of the lack of a lock. Locks are not hard to make, just have to work at it and you will get it.

 

I learned early on that old carts/wagons found were not a good choice to convey your goods in, as you don't have possession of the cart you are not able to set the permissions for it's use. You can lock these vehicles though, but it is a pain in the behind every time you want to unload the items you must remove the padlock. In the end you are better off building your own cart, or having someone build one for you and sign over the ownership and then promptly apply the lock and manage the settings.

 

I do still use these carts when the situation arises, but maybe less now, as I was not aware people could unhitch your team while you were in command.

[Postes 5,282]

you all dont know theft till you see people steal ingame from their own family lol

[Arronicus 642]

I don't know what game it is you have been playing, but there is no game that encourages teamwork as Wurm. For example, I have played for 2 full years now and I have created 3 deeds so far, and yet I have never built a house. All my houses have been built by my wonderful friends that I have met in this game.

 

The mechanisms of Wurm, the permission systems, are what makes all this wonderful collaboration possible.

Eve online blows Wurm away in this regard. Collaboration and teamwork is absolutely required if you want to do anything in nullsec beyond just the odd solo roam, which generally turns out very poorly. Even in lowsec, soloplay can go very poorly very quickly, especially in this day and age, and that's just one game. If you look around, you'll find others. 

[Arronicus 642]

you all dont know theft till you see people steal ingame from their own family lol

One of our family friends had her sister (by blood) steal ~ $100K from her through identity theft. Blew it all on gambling and drugs. Had to change her first and last name, and couldn't recover more than a fraction of the funds. If that doesn't blow your trust out of the water, I don't know what will. She's a really nice person, and she's doing okay these days, but holy crap. 

[Nekojin 197]

So now that my carts, houses, and pastures are all as fully locked as I can get them, the next question springs to mind: What are the rules regarding KOS on Xanadu? Are there any, or is it "wanderer beware" if you happen to walk into someone else's deed area and have the guards attack you?

[Lotus1 315]

Then there appears to be a disconnect between what the game devs consider to be thieving/stealing, and what the playerbase thinks is. 

 

By saying the "playerbase", you are stating that everyone is thinking the same thing. If this were the case, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place nor the other theft threads where there are multiple opinions. By saying playerbase, you're even lumping in the people who steal. lol

 

While I agree that theft is bad, please don't lump everyone into thinking that as it's not going to help your argument at all.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Lotus1

[Keenan 5,539]

So now that my carts, houses, and pastures are all as fully locked as I can get them, the next question springs to mind: What are the rules regarding KOS on Xanadu? Are there any, or is it "wanderer beware" if you happen to walk into someone else's deed area and have the guards attack you?

 

The same for other servers - you cannot KoS on a deed that spans over a highway. Otherwise, there are no rules. Players get warned upon entering and have enough time to leave the deed. They also get a warning message.

[sharanakat 1]

I figure I should throw my two cents in. I thought it was just another random cart. I did not see him there and I was by water. I am a scavenger. I like finding half decayed places, Even if there is nothing there to loot I just enjoy the exploring. I honestly thought it was a throw away cart. Someone who brings a cart to the water, loads up a boat and leaves to another server never to return. I have seen that a lot. I digress however. If I had seen him I wouldnt have touched it.  There are an insane amount of abandoned carts, Hell if you go down the shore for a bit from your deed you will see a spot with about 6 large abandoned carts. (well they are empty, low ql, and there is a ship transporter there so I think they skipped town) I figure if a cart was not abandoned it would be locked. I do not think anyone did not lock there carts these days. Anyway if you like repercussions feel free to swipe anything of mine you can. I live by vrocks landing. I am my own mayor. 

[Corsan 199]

In all your posts you have said nothing but bad things about Wurm. You portray it as a very dangerous environment where innocent players get abused.

 

If that's what you take away from my posts, I pity you. I'm trying to better the game we play.

 

Just because you stick your head in the sand and act like there isn't a problem (Because you've been around so long taking advantage of these loopholes most likely.), doesn't mean there isn't any.

[Audrel 2,223]

There's theft (running of with someone's cart full of woodscraps) and then there's THEFT! (Running off with their knarr)

 

And if it is full of woodchips, it will crash the server when the run across the border making it grand theft crash knarr.

 

 

The same for other servers - you cannot KoS on a deed that spans over a highway. Otherwise, there are no rules. Players get warned upon entering and have enough time to leave the deed. They also get a warning message.

 

FWIW, they get the same warning with a highway and the same amount of time. The no KoS on a highway is one of the more idiotic rules in this game of "no rules." Deed It or Lose It is the rule of the land unless someone plants 2 bricks on it, then it's second only to the word of God.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Audrel

[Nekojin 197]

The same for other servers - you cannot KoS on a deed that spans over a highway. Otherwise, there are no rules. Players get warned upon entering and have enough time to leave the deed. They also get a warning message.

So, if there's no "highway" (2-wide road, etc.) on my deed, and I don't build one, I'm fine to kill off anyone who trods on my terrain. Got it. The only "highway" near my property is in my perimeter, and it doesn't qualify as a "highway" in any case - it doesn't go from one Deed to another, it just goes uphill and kinda dies. I've been considering turning it INTO a highway (tunneling through the nearby mountain to give it someplace to go), but at the moment, it's just the overly zealous work of a neighboring deed. It doesn't even connect to mine at all.

[Keenan 5,539]

 

And if it is full of woodchips, it will crash the server when the run across the border making it grand theft crash knarr.

 

 

 

FWIW, they get the same warning with a highway and the same amount of time. The no KoS on a highway is one of the more idiotic rules in this game of "no rules." Deed It or Lose It is the rule of the land unless someone plants 2 bricks on it, then it's second only to the word of God.

 

 

I agree it's a bit silly, but I'm not here to argue the rules.

 

So, if there's no "highway" (2-wide road, etc.) on my deed, and I don't build one, I'm fine to kill off anyone who trods on my terrain. Got it. The only "highway" near my property is in my perimeter, and it doesn't qualify as a "highway" in any case - it doesn't go from one Deed to another, it just goes uphill and kinda dies. I've been considering turning it INTO a highway (tunneling through the nearby mountain to give it someplace to go), but at the moment, it's just the overly zealous work of a neighboring deed. It doesn't even connect to mine at all.

 

You can't kill them yourself, no. You can set them to KoS and IF you have templars, they will attack. Having decent fight skill and gear makes that less of a problem though - unless you hire a ton of guards, I could probably take several myself the way it is. I know this is the case when we're raiding deeds on Chaos - as long as you remember to keep checking and get them in front of your shield. Even easier if you "hop" the deed boundary.

 

So KoS isn't an end-all solution, but an option. It's more of a sort of "stern tone" than a real punishment. The difference between a parent saying "I am disappointed in you, go to your room." and a good, old-fashioned flogging. The latter isn't available on Freedom. They *do* pop your settlement alarm though, if I recall. So you can use that, along with Twitter, to see if someone comes back for more.

[Audrel 2,223]

I agree it's a bit silly, but I'm not here to argue the rules.

 

Noted, wasn't a jab at you Keenan. You didn't write it.

[Seancarl 109]

I think wurm teaches you to be responsible with your belonings. You don't leave your wallet on a table in a bar while you go to the bathroom. Hell, it's actually illegal to leave your car unlocked here just to protect the less intelligent members of society. All it takes is for you to not be a total idiot and your stuff is safe in wurm. You can't actually steal on a pve server, only pick up things that are free to take for everyone.

 

Wurm might teach that, but in real life the criminals are punished anyway.  So while the police might give you tips and suggestions to prevent future trouble, they will still go after the guy who committed the crime.  That's what we lack here. 

[Seancarl 109]

I figure I should throw my two cents in. I thought it was just another random cart. I did not see him there and I was by water. I am a scavenger. I like finding half decayed places, Even if there is nothing there to loot I just enjoy the exploring. I honestly thought it was a throw away cart. Someone who brings a cart to the water, loads up a boat and leaves to another server never to return. I have seen that a lot. I digress however. If I had seen him I wouldnt have touched it.  There are an insane amount of abandoned carts, Hell if you go down the shore for a bit from your deed you will see a spot with about 6 large abandoned carts. (well they are empty, low ql, and there is a ship transporter there so I think they skipped town) I figure if a cart was not abandoned it would be locked. I do not think anyone did not lock there carts these days. Anyway if you like repercussions feel free to swipe anything of mine you can. I live by vrocks landing. I am my own mayor. 

 

You thought a cart with horses attached was an abandoned cart?  Really?  You are being purposefully obtuse and using "scavenging" as an excuse to take stuff that doesn't belong to you.  I agree, there is a lot of abandoned everything in this game and it can be a little difficult to discern the difference, but a cart with horses is not abandoned.  If it were truly abandoned then the horses would be dead and I think you know that.