Trader Reimbursement?

[Gavin 971]

Ah missed the pa... Anyhow... 37.5 is a nice number, but not exactly the cost of a trader, but i disgress..

 

It is. You buy a trader for 50s and can drain 25% (12.5s) back - your left with 37.50s cost.

[Ruger 610]

So you bought traders to abuse a system that he said he didn't want abused in the first place which is why we are where we are at now and now you want a reimbursement for it?

 

Help me understand this further please?

Edited November 2, 2014 by Ruger

[Archaed 2,286]

As an owner of traders, I fail to see why theres the need for reimbursement, as their income winds down, they'll eventually be little more than novelty merchants, but im sure theyve brought their moneys worth in

[Ruger 610]

As an owner of traders, I fail to see why theres the need for reimbursement, as their income winds down, they'll eventually be little more than novelty merchants, but im sure theyve brought their moneys worth in

Just one more way for the people who have already made more then enough off them to cover their initial costs to make a bit more money..

[KryoKitten 71]

So you bought traders to abuse a system that he said he didn't want abused in the first place which is why we are where we are at now and now you want a reimbursement for it?

 

Help me understand this further please?

 

In agreement.

 

By the time I came around to the game the whole locked up "personal" trader was long in existence with the forums full of drama over them. After getting some general game experience and my own deed, I spent cash to buy silver from code club, bought myself a trader and and started milking it. I never in a million years thought I'd move. I figured I'd risk any changes to their mechanics since at the time I could afford to play lotto with the payout.  Then about 6 months later maybe less the announcement of Xanadu hit, there was mention in a few posts and announcements that they would be looking at reworking the trader system. I cant see asking for a reimbursement for what is essentially an allowed exploit, let alone for ppl who bought trader papers after the announcements of them being possibly retooled with Xanadu coming out.  If traders go out the window quite frankly imo the only people who should even remotely get a reimbursement of some sort are those who actually left their traders open to the public as intended. 

[Maximustehgreat 353]

+1 There should be trader reimbursements, the contracts changed, they are no longer the original purpose we purchased them for.

 

So wholeheartedly agree there should be a 25s reimbursement at least minimum!

[Ecrir 887]

+1 There should be trader reimbursements, the contracts changed, they are no longer the original purpose we purchased them for.

 

So wholeheartedly agree there should be a 25s reimbursement at least minimum!

 

That's more than trader owners were given on affliction only last month, sounds highly unfair towards all those players.

[MrGARY 12,421]

So you bought traders to abuse a system that he said he didn't want abused in the first place which is why we are where we are at now and now you want a reimbursement for it?

 

Help me understand this further please?

 

Maybe my memory is off but when I purchased my trader it was stated that traders were working as intended and meant to give out coins as they did

 

It wasn't until as of more lately in time that more people became vocal about those recouping some of their upkeep costs via traders that it became an "issue"

[Othob Rithol 700]

There was discussion several years ago and on multiple occasions. I know because I was just as vocal and actively opposed then as now. It's not a "new" issue at all, just one that rarely comes up for attention because most of the few people that knew about them were benefiting from them. When the only way to get something is with a 100s deed, information about them doesn't get far. Now more people know about them and they easier and cheaper than ever to get. Every year or so Rolf slaps a band-aid on them, the owners rant a bit and the can gets kicked down the road.

 

One thing we all need to be very honest about here is that, yes, on many occasions it has been more or less stated they are working as intended. I have never seen, however, Rolf state what that intention was in any detail. We can infer a great deal from their various mechanisms and the changes we've witnessed being made to them, but their true intent is buried deep on page 287 Figure F of the nonexistent game documentation. Some infer that since they give out money, they are intended to be ATMs or some sort of savings bond. Others infer that since they swap goods, sell gold sinks and had a buy/sell ratio added to them that their intended function is a more public one.

 

Short Version: There is very often a large divide between what Rolf intends, or even believes is happening, and what the player base is doing or perceives is his intent.

 

And frankly people aren't so much opposed to them now on the concept of "recouping some of their upkeep" as they are with "milking a server economy" with traders boxed into a 3x3 shack on a 1s deed. If it was just a handful of big deeds on near empty servers with a trader near the token like it was 5 years ago it wouldn't be a real issue. But now, with multi trader deed empires milking a gold coin every month or two from hundrds of deeds upkeeps, all the while the price of silver in the shop doubling...yes it's a bigger issue now than it ever has been.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Othob Rithol

[MrGARY 12,421]

And frankly people aren't so much opposed to them now on the concept of "recouping some of their upkeep" as they are with "milking a server economy" with traders boxed into a 3x3 shack on a 1s deed. If it was just a handful of big deeds on near empty servers with a trader near the token like it was 5 years ago it wouldn't be a real issue. But now, with multi trader deed empires milking a gold coin every month or two from hundrds of deeds upkeeps, all the while the price of silver in the shop doubling...yes it's a bigger issue now than it ever has been.

 

Have to remember though just because some people use them in 1s trader deeds, doesn't mean that people that use them at their actual deeds like myself don't exist. 

 

With the average payout in the last half? year being around 1-5s per month, I'm curious who is managing to make a gold every month or two.  Lets go with just two months instead of one, this is 10 traders give or take a few for random payouts.  I'd hope we can agree that if people were doing that, it clearly is not the norm for people to have 10 traders or more.

 

As for me, traders aren't making enough per month to cover the cost of the deed they're in, so I don't see them as a problem, certainly not more than ever has been

[Ruger 610]

Maybe my memory is off but when I purchased my trader it was stated that traders were working as intended and meant to give out coins as they did

 

It wasn't until as of more lately in time that more people became vocal about those recouping some of their upkeep costs via traders that it became an "issue"

"Working as intended and meant to give coins" is not the same as meant to be milked by players as a means for them to pay there bills making hand over fist in coins then reselling for real cash..

 

Yes its meant to give coins, it was not meant for players to milk continuously for coins like they were and that was stated and that is why we are in the position we are at now.

[KanePT 699]

It is. You buy a trader for 50s and can drain 25% (12.5s) back - your left with 37.50s cost.

Except you forgot the deed and upkeep costs, but like i said, that wasn't the point.

 

As an owner of traders, I fail to see why theres the need for reimbursement, as their income winds down, they'll eventually be little more than novelty merchants, but im sure theyve brought their moneys worth in

IF traders end up just that, then there might be a reason to reimburse, simple for coherence sake, since Rolf has reimbursed them in the past.

But at this point i see them working as intended (or at least as they've been working up to now, give or take a few silver), so this whole thread is just trader-hater bait.

 

There was discussion several years ago and on multiple occasions. I know because I was just as vocal and actively opposed then as now. It's not a "new" issue at all, just one that rarely comes up for attention because most of the few people that knew about them were benefiting from them. When the only way to get something is with a 100s deed, information about them doesn't get far. Now more people know about them and they easier and cheaper than ever to get. Every year or so Rolf slaps a band-aid on them, the owners rant a bit and the can gets kicked down the road.

 

One thing we all need to be very honest about here is that, yes, on many occasions it has been more or less stated they are working as intended. I have never seen, however, Rolf state what that intention was in any detail. We can infer a great deal from their various mechanisms and the changes we've witnessed being made to them, but their true intent is buried deep on page 287 Figure F of the nonexistent game documentation. Some infer that since they give out money, they are intended to be ATMs or some sort of savings bond. Others infer that since they swap goods, sell gold sinks and had a buy/sell ratio added to them that their intended function is a more public one.

 

Short Version: There is very often a large divide between what Rolf intends, or even believes is happening, and what the player base is doing or perceives is his intent.

 

And frankly people aren't so much opposed to them now on the concept of "recouping some of their upkeep" as they are with "milking a server economy" with traders boxed into a 3x3 shack on a 1s deed. If it was just a handful of big deeds on near empty servers with a trader near the token like it was 5 years ago it wouldn't be a real issue. But now, with multi trader deed empires milking a gold coin every month or two from hundrds of deeds upkeeps, all the while the price of silver in the shop doubling...yes it's a bigger issue now than it ever has been.

Rarely? Lol Your concept of rare is unique to Wurm.

I've yet to see any bandaids on traders. There were bandaids for people that whined to be able to replicate the outcome of a trader without having to pony up 50s upfront, but hey.

I really would like to know where you get your numbers. Milking a gold coin every month? That's a helluva big deed mate to Hold around 20 traders.

 

 

"Working as intended and meant to give coins" is not the same as meant to be milked by players as a means for them to pay there bills making hand over fist in coins then reselling for real cash..

 

Yes its meant to give coins, it was not meant for players to milk continuously for coins like they were and that was stated and that is why we are in the position we are at now.

What's that? People whinning? Same position as ever, sorry to disapoint. People have been crying hell over heels since i can remember about traders. Usually a select few people spreading misinformation (like dear old Othob) and general buthurtery.

Thing is the only issue that came up recently is a direct consequence of Rolf CHANGING the trader system in Xanadu. Yes my dear fellow if there were more traders in Xanadu, then you can bet your ass Rolf wouldn't have had to inject 40 gold into Xanadu's coffers and have those 40 gold drained from only a half a dozen traders. And yes Rolf has stated that traders/coin recirculation AND selling coin/items in RMT were a big part of Wurm,SEVERAL TIMES.

Hell do some homework, check the videos from the launch of 1.0 on Twitch.

[Othob Rithol 700]

Gary, I didn't mean to suggest that those sizes of empires are the norm, but they do exist. I'm not going to name and shame, but more than one has dumped their entire list of a months payouts in one of the many threads about traders.

 

From what I can tell (monitoring the sales threads and these discussions) the majority of trader drainers own 1-3 traders across one or two servers, with maybe the upper 20% being somewhere around 5 or 6 spread on 3-4 servers to maximize the pools they can draw from.

 

But we're digressing rapidly away from the topic of discussion, reimbursement, and falling back into the greater (but off topic) argument over validity.

 

My position on the matter still stands at:

 

What I would recommend as fair would be to allow a one time choice on every trader. If you choose "reimburse" it stops functioning as a trader, becoming totally inert other than kicking out a set amount of funds daily (comparable to trader payouts prior to recent changes, so several months if not a year) until it has given out precisely 50s, when it despawns automatically. If you set it to "trader" it continues to function in the current system including a pop-up that acknowledges you accept that the rules governing traders are subject to change without notification at the developers discretion and that you forego any expectation of reimbursement at a future time.

A position I have held for about 5 years.

 

Although in retrospect I would scale down the total payout to 40s over time (I had forgotten you could drain a % back), but the lump 20s cited by others for the server reset sounds quite reasonable, has recent precedent, and requires no additional coding time.

[Ayes 3,715]

My position on the matter still stands at:

 

>>>A position I have held for about 5 years.<<<

 

Ah ha! You see what you have revealed about yourself here? You are clearly a stubborn and inflexible personage! Change of outlook with the times taken into accord is certainly the more enlightened option. Sage advice grows long with the beard of stagnation not adapted according to the unknown forces that sway the god of Wurm's random thoughts on this Trader welfare beneficence.

 

In the end, myself I find it neither here nor there whether this leads anywhere, since all roads within these lands that lead eventually to their origin of the imagination. Have you stopped into the deep woods in the darkest of nights as the downy flakes fall, only to be disturbed by the harness bells of your faithful horse in wonderment of the stopping there? Although the owner might have his house within the Village, he will not see you stopping there in an attempt to spy into the mysterious 3x3 windowless house.

 

Ride onward then with the expectation that just over the horizon of tomorrow's elusive distance, a new age will arise when all might look into those steely Traders eyes and with extended hand merely feel the wind softly  caressing their extended hand.

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

[Gavin 971]

Except you forgot the deed and upkeep costs, but like i said, that wasn't the point.

Why do so many people mistakenly believe that the trader must be placed on a deed?

[MrGARY 12,421]

Why do so many people mistakenly believe that the trader must be placed on a deed?

 

Probably because on Freedom without a deed you can bet your behind that someone will perimeter over it and wait for the house to decay

[whykillme 1,621]

Probably because on Freedom without a deed you can bet your behind that someone will perimeter over it and wait for the house to decay

Obviously, but the deed should have nothing to do with any kind of Reimbursement.

Personally i like this new system, so i do rather see a bit of money returned to me and in the future the newer players who want to forage/botanize earn more money instead of small amounts still going to my traders. I will keep resetting them as long as they still receive small amounts of money (would need some testing if they still do). But i do rather see them removed with a small Reimbursement, which rewards both me and the new system.

[ago 470]

Trader returns on Indy were getting smaller since P+R opened and the money shifted to the new servers and got another big hit when Xanadu opened.

Getting a trader about a year ago on Indy should have payed out now. Getting a trader later was like "investing" in an already declining market. I don't see why any reimbursements should be handed out for an unwise business decision.

[Uberknot 327]

Trader returns on Indy were getting smaller since P+R opened and the money shifted to the new servers and got another big hit when Xanadu opened.

Getting a trader about a year ago on Indy should have payed out now. Getting a trader later was like "investing" in an already declining market. I don't see why any reimbursements should be handed out for an unwise business decision.

 

I see so if he decides to remove all dragon armor from the game and make it unavailable he shouldn't offer anything in return to those player who lose dragon armor?

[validate 599]

I have 8 trader deeds left . only 1 active and 1 with 3 on it and a very nice looking deed.  the other 4 traders i'm going to check if it made anything, if not I think I will just disband them. was trying to sell off for 25s but I don't even want to have to waste 6-8 hrs sailing back just to make that.

 

one deed has 2 traders and is not making the upkeep any more. it has to go for sure.  and the deed with 3 . not eough upkeep either. but hard to let such a nice huge deed go but almost no one left on that server 22 folks the other day on a sat peak time.    I pay 12s I think  and get 6s  . disband and save 12s a month and a ton  of sailing time

[Ayes 3,715]

*content linked here*

 

Validate, You make an enlightening post here as to the status of the current Trader situation from your perspective, which I think points out further how they have been taken to the extreme under their previous terms of function and payouts. Although I find you to be an agreeable and pleasant person in matters other than this, I find it also of interest that even now at 25 silver per deed/Trader you consider it not worth much more effort to sell them.

 

Telling indeed and on topic when judging whether any Trader "reimbursements" should be given, if one has enough insight to read between the lines. Effects and results such as this on the sentiment of owning Trader deeds, I find to be positive ones, as well as a cautionary tale to those who might consider purchasing them. For those who have eyes to hear, let them see.

 

Safe Travels

=Ayes=

[Othob Rithol 700]

I see so if he decides to remove all dragon armor from the game and make it unavailable he shouldn't offer anything in return to those player who lose dragon armor?

 

A more apt comparison would be if dragon armors were nerfed. Traders still exist and they still even get coins, just not as lucrative as much as before the changes.

[Uberknot 327]

A more apt comparison would be if dragon armors were nerfed. Traders still exist and they still even get coins, just not as lucrative as much as before the changes.

 

The deal is he would remove the function totally from draining any coins and go about making other ways for all players to gain coins. 

 

That would be the fairest way to go about it.  20s refund and no more coins to Traders period they would only serve to sell items or Trade for player made items.

[KanePT 699]

Why do so many people mistakenly believe that the trader must be placed on a deed?

Because, knowingly, otherwise you're risking not being able to drain it due to decay, either by negligence or what gary said. You can put it off-deed, but you'd have to be clueless to do so.

 

Probably because on Freedom without a deed you can bet your behind that someone will perimeter over it and wait for the house to decay

 

Anyhow, this topic isn't really going nowhere. Traders are in business as usual mode until any notice from Rolf. I'm sure that he won't remove them, if he removes them, they'll be object of reimbursement or won't be.

This thread is just flame bate from the hate party, and seriously, looking at Xanadu, they've done damage enough.

[Castile 167]

As a trader owner who is still trying to get my investment back I'd like to see a reimbursement for them and see them gone from the game.

The thing about this whole calamity that bothers me is that because some people spent money to make some coin that this means that all players, ftp or premium, should have equal

access to that coin.

 

 Dear Rolf,

Please take out all traders and reimburse owners for them.

Than do away with all coin drops so no one can make more than any other player.

 

P.S.

 Rolf take the extra money you make from this and buy a new car, you deserve it.