Wurm Player Retention

[Sharad 0]

I am a player who left, and I am considering a return. But I'm hesitant.

I think the effort/reward system needs a tweak. I recall spending too much time on small tasks. It seemed to take forever before I could make decent tools for building stuff, and the stuff I built would degrade too quickly. I spent weeks in the mines to gather enough material to build my homestead, and then weeks more in the mines gathering materials to repair my homestead. Not to mention all the time I spent at the forge grinding my skill, so that I could build a better tool (or build a certain tool).

I just don't have fond memories of the mines in Wurm.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Sharad

[Vanya 65]

Well... That happens cause this game is made for team and social playing, not for single playing.

Of course, you can play alone as an hermit, but that wayy all will be a pain. So actually this game's mechanics work in their goal.

[Sharad 0]

Well... That happens cause this game is made for team and social playing, not for single playing.

I should have said, I had a partner in my homestead. And he mined as much as myself, and tilled the garden. And I was part of a guild, who provided food, tools, and armor. I pitched in on guild goals, which usually involved mining and crafting 10000 bricks.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Sharad

[Ozgod 18]

It also comes down the community that plays - do you actively seek out new players and "welcome" them into the fold? I recently rejoined Wurm but it took at least five days for anyone to at least greet me. Otherwise Wurm comes as very very lonely and most people, new players, look for someone to assist them.

Especially with an MMO like Wurm where - well - it can be a little punishing

[ryjedo 7]

well this will be on page 4 or 5 and few read that far and respond.

i've grappled with this several times in my multiple wurm lives.

i have learned to avoid a few things:

1: don't over build. you don't need 12 horses and a 50 tile farming plot for one character. you will spend all your time keeping up with these and never make any progress

2: don't set skill based goals. seems counter-intuitive in a game like this but it tends to be anti-climactic and runs you into other problems.

3: don't hermit for long periods of time. building a little shack to grind smithing while you get to know the neighbors and pick a place to live is one thing, running off into the un-touched wilderness to live by yourself is another.

4: don't build projects only for yourself. you will complete them and then wish you were part of some society that would appreciate your work. the reward just isn't there.

what i've done to successfully rekindle when i'm feeling sort of burnt out:

i've joined noob shelters that take in new players and help them get started. these noobs will usually end up going off on their own, start a deed, get all the basic infrastructure built and then get bored/burn out on skill grind. what i do is go join these players as they leave the noob deed, help them get their place started and up to speed (buildings, forges, wells, mines maybe a farm and some fruit tree's) and then as things start to slow down and the players get ready to make decisions that will burn them out (like: i'm gonna grind WS to 50!) i go back to the noob shelter to start the cycle over. i have some mixed feelings about this though. it seems these players are going to burn out either way and i'm stealing a few weeks of their enjoyment by establishing them so quickly.

recently i've moved to epic to become a chain armor smith. as i have no skill in this on epic i am out solo/hermit style in the wilderness building up some basic skills (carpentry, mining, blacksmithing, etc) trying to become useful to an established deed and then i will begin looking for a village to join to begin phase 2 (the real fun). phase 2 involves providing free low end chain armor to the people defending the area and offer very attractive rates for imping it. this (i'm hoping) will help me to become an established and well liked member of the community and THATS how people stick in this game.

you have to find purpose in the community to get anything real out of this game. maybe your the bad guy, maybe your the wine maker, maybe you own the deed everyone runs to for protection, maybe you just kit out the troops with some basic armor. but those social ties are what will keep you logging in. find SOME way to make some portion of the community depend on you for something.

[Moxie 271]

you have to find purpose in the community to get anything real out of this game. maybe your the bad guy, maybe your the wine maker, maybe you own the deed everyone runs to for protection, maybe you just kit out the troops with some basic armor. but those social ties are what will keep you logging in. find SOME way to make some portion of the community depend on you for something.

This. So much this. I've done the hermit thing and burned myself completely out working on a solo deed in the past. My current deed is shared between me and my husband, he takes care of the mining/smithing/carpentery while I do the terraforming//cooking/farming/animal stuff. The deed is pretty much complete, but we get bored quickly when grinding skills - so normally, we would be taking an extended break right now.

Instead, we formed an alliance with other deeds in the area. We work on community projects - new & improved roads, landmarks, shared labor when one of us has a HUGE project. Should newbies wander into the area, we help them get set up - terraforming, finding water tiles, providing food, bandages, and fight skill. We have 13 settlements in the alliance, so everyone has the ability to build and live as they wish, in a less structured way than if we all lived in a village together, but there's still a huge emphasis on being a member of the overall community. When we do things together, it's way more fun than doing them solo, and if it weren't for the community, I most likely wouldn't be here.

[Sarcaticous 338]

I'm sure there are plenty of newer players who don't want their deeds raided either but most of the objections to any kind of added risk to freedom does come from the older player base and to an extent I can appreciate their concerns about it. However, pandering to the older, established player base isn't going to make it any easier to attract and retain new players - and that's where the money is. Rolf is trapped in a situation where his game is both kept afloat and made stagnant by the same vocal old guard players that resist change.

Any retained player, old or new, IS the older player base.

From a commercial standpoint, it makes more sense for Rolf to look at his potential player base and what will attract and retain them instead of what keeps the old players who don't want things to change too much happy.

Make a game appealing enough for new players to invest in and stick with and you don't need to continually make concessions to those who resist change. Sure, you may alienate and drive them off in the process, but better that then have the game held back because some people may get may not like things getting shaken up to a point where they have to adjust and adapt.

Right, stab the ones in the back who have stuck with WURM through thick and thin. That should work.

A deed is a safe haven? Mostly yes. But it should never be 100% safe. Without risk there's no sense of achievement and new players want to feel like the time they invest in a game is worth while. Sometimes that should mean your stuff is put at risk. Sometimes that means you have to fight to protect what's yours. Victory is always sweeter when it's hard fought. Defeat gives you a reason to pick yourself up and fight back.

Bottom line (again, my opinion) Wurm needs more danger, everywhere. It needs more challenges thrown at the player, village, community at large. It doesn't need more player created distraction (although that's awesome too) it needs more environmental ones. Right now, Freedom isn't really PVE. The environment is largely inert and unable to challenge a player. It's too boring to keep all but the most stubborn players, and we've already met them. We are them.

Don't have guards. Don't have walls. It's up to the player whether or not he wants to play a risky game. Changing the way the game works isn't even needed. Just don't buy or build protection. It's as easy as that. Believe me, your deed won't be 100% safe unless your neighbor has a guard. Band together with people of like mind and no deeds around you have guards. Ask for spawns to be placed in your area, especially trolls. You'll have all the danger you want without ruining what others want. Wall off your area to keep the mobs that spawn within your area. Then you can run from them on a regular basis if that's your cup of tea. WURM is a sandbox. You don't HAVE to have guards or walls around your deed. And if you did get it the way you post then what would keep guards from killing the mobs as they do now????? You would have to eliminate guards AND guard towers completely.

I'm not suggesting peoples homes should be raided by players on Freedom and all their gear stolen, but the environment should be able to kick us in the ass and force us to work to keep it at bay from time to time. Maybe a village constantly under threat of mob attack has penalties to it's productivity or increased upkeep cost or something as well as having to manually repair damaged buildings and walls when the dangerous npc population reaches a certain threshold and needs culling? Maybe make these random, server wide events that encourage players to band together to help drive off rampaging Trolls in a certain area? Think of it like a weekly Dragon slaying or something, but without any huge rewards.

See the above reply. Still applies.

I dunno, it's just needs more exciting stuff going on for the new/newer players to get excited about. Older players may not want the potential added hassle, but the game needs it desperately.

Wurm isn't ever going to be successful if it's development is being hindered by it's own player base. For the sake of the game we have to stop resisting change and encourage developments that will attract new players. We just have to make sure along the way it doesn't get dumbed down.

Incidently, I'm not strictly having a pop at old players who want to protect their time investments, I'm more annoyed with the general consensus that changes that make things a bit harder/realistic or more dangerous are bad and I am especially irked at how those who shout the loudest are usually the only ones Rolf ever hears.

Maybe I should drop a gold into the wishing well and ask for my own private audience ...

Since you don't even suggest the obvious things, no guards, no walls, asking for spawns at your site, you seem to not want the hassle of making things more exciting for you.

[Busted 289]

Probably best if you read the entire thread before posting again. You missed a fair bit.

[Sarcaticous 338]

Probably best if you read the entire thread before posting again. You missed a fair bit.

If you would pay attention you would see I was quoting only your post, not the entire thread.

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

Probably best if you read the entire thread before posting again. You missed a fair bit.

It's time you read the entire thread again. You seem to be the only one in favor of your idea, yet you have continued to argue with everyone else for 9 pages now. The game is the way it is because Rolf knows what is paying the bills. The only way something like what you suggest is going to happen is if it happens on a new server, and I have some doubts about that, since all servers have the same base coding. Just because you think it would help player retention does not make you correct, no matter how loud you get. And please stop saying most players, you are not most players.

[Dark Tom 0]

I can relate to the feeling of getting bored, most of the people in the village I currenty am can.

I love building up a new existance somewhere. Building a house, farm and making everything look decent. and afcoarse pvping. But at the moment you start having plenty of resources and there is little pvp around things start to get boring. Large projects dont really seem to add fun for long either. The best thing for me to do at that point is to either take a break or to move to a new location.

Ive seen people talk about living on a ship in this thread. I really think a grand feature would be the ability to actually live on ships properly, being able to walk, craft on them while sailing. This would make a sea traveling life possible.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Dark Tom

[Busted 289]

It's time you read the entire thread again. You seem to be the only one in favor of your idea, yet you have continued to argue with everyone else for 9 pages now. The game is the way it is because Rolf knows what is paying the bills. The only way something like what you suggest is going to happen is if it happens on a new server, and I have some doubts about that, since all servers have the same base coding. Just because you think it would help player retention does not make you correct, no matter how loud you get. And please stop saying most players, you are not most players.

I know what I wrote, thanks. You like things as they are, wonderful. I want more excitement and so do other people. Like all the thousands that have come and gone and left because "Wurm is boring." Sadly, I can't call on them to come and voice their opinions because ... wait for it, they left.

I'll take a new server, happily. So would many, many others if such a thing existed. Let's set aside our differences and get it done, yeah? Then we can all be happy. Me in my world of pain and misery and you in your dull, ever safe and stale sandbox.

[Perfexion 2]

New Server Concept: PvE Survival

Properties:

* Cannot spawn there from the tutorial. Migrants only.

* No Deeds

* No Guard Towers

* Extra spawns - Including the variety of Epic Event critters (maybe based on tasks?)

Optional:

* Increased decay on structures after ~20 dmg (ghost towns collapse faster)

* Occasional environmental disasters / map revisions - Volcanos / Earthquakes / Meteors (so people don't get too content).

* Occasional hordes / fence bashing beasts to rampage across the countryside.

Rules posted. Server can and will change at Rolf's whim. Build there at your own risk. If it becomes popular, major earth shattering event happens - map regenerated at a bigger size or something. Or alternatively the whole thing sinks into the sea and everyone respawns on Indy.

Avoid additional features / rule sets that would pull development time away from "standard" features, just make the world more hostile.

[Mark 47]

I don't get how hostility can make people want to play Wurm more, I just don't. There's enough hostility in the game from all the creatures, adding bashing to them and deed wrecking isn't "fun" and won't have people stay. Not sure how in someone's twisted mind, that a new player who is already running for their lives will feel more compelled to stay playing Wurm if some creature keeps breaking their enclosure or house, killing them and keeping them from feeling at least a little safe someplace. That first few days of playtime are crucial to a player's retention.

[Busted 289]

I don't get how hostility can make people want to play Wurm more, I just don't. There's enough hostility in the game from all the creatures, adding bashing to them and deed wrecking isn't "fun" and won't have people stay. Not sure how in someone's twisted mind, that a new player who is already running for their lives will feel more compelled to stay playing Wurm if some creature keeps breaking their enclosure or house, killing them and keeping them from feeling at least a little safe someplace. That first few days of playtime are crucial to a player's retention.

Exactly this was discussed earlier in the thread. Long and short, new players need better education and a safe place to learn for the start of their careers so the world isn't as full as terrors as it is now.

[Mark 47]

Here Busted: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/66579-new-challenges-moons-of-wurm/

See what you all think.

[Busted 289]

Here Busted: http://forum.wurmonl...-moons-of-wurm/

See what you all think.

Not what I'd be aiming for but like the suggestion Brash posted it's a step in the right direction. Don't be discouraged by the negativity.

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

Exactly this was discussed earlier in the thread. Long and short, new players need better education and a safe place to learn for the start of their careers so the world isn't as full as terrors as it is now.

That's what GV was, and it was bad for the game. New players decided to stay there, playing for free, because they did not want to start over again. That's the problem with your ideas. They have already been tried, and it was bad for the game, so they were reverted. There was a time when trolls and other aggros did bash walls, and the noobs quit in droves. Older players like myself could handle it, but found daily repairing a pita. Take the time to learn the history of the game so far.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Vroomfondel

[Busted 289]

That's what GV was, and it was bad for the game. New players decided to stay there, playing for free, because they did not want to start over again. That's the problem with your ideas. They have already been tried, and it was bad for the game, so they were reverted. There was a time when trolls and other aggros did bash walls, and the noobs quit in droves. Older players like myself could handle it, but found daily repairing a pita. Take the time to learn the history of the game so far.

Take time to read my posts. Properly. There's no mention of another GV where players ive forever. If you had read it properly you would know one of the original retention ideas was to have newly spawned players automatically join a noob village where they would live for upto a week to get to know the game in safety before being auto expelled and sent on their way. On every server. So no GV.

Also, I know some history. Had a long discussion with some old timers regarding the fear some of you have with regards to any kind of change. I heard all about how Home server raiding was disastrously unleashed upon the old guard without any real warning from Rolf and how instead of attempting to manage the situation a large number of people at the time decided to disband their deeds in protest.

So instead of working to stop people "potentially" raiding (you know, those terrible, terrible pvpers a lot of you would be happy to see the back of) the players of that time just disbanded their deeds and stamped their feet in protest.

You just seem to want the game to remain in limbo where nothing ever really changes. Sure, multilevel buildings are coming in, bridges at some point after, graphical updates etc etc. That's just polish. That's not substance.

Why are you so resistent to change? What are you so afraid of? You don't want any mean beasties beating up on your deeds? Fine, let's (once again) go for a new server where you won't have to ever, ever sail to. Let's make it as described, with wonderful and chaotic environmental challenges and see who wants to live there. As it doesn't effect you, you shouldn't have any objection to it happening. The "too many servers already" argument doesn't fly as this isn't a freedom server we're talking about, or even strictly a Wild one. It's something new and different with it's own rules set that will not impact on you or anyone else in any way, shape or form unless THEY chose to go live there and face the challenges, bashing, brutality and all.

[Pashka 707]

However, as the game has shown, what happens on another server (bashing etc) happens on the other freedom servers. Unless you are looking for an epic like place. This would mean no sailing between though.

[Wulfgar 1,132]

Like all the thousands that have come and gone and left because "Wurm is boring."

So now we are down to throwing out numbers and reasons to suit our own arguments?

I don't need to do that. I have played this game for 3½ years. Since day 1 I have enjoyed helping other people, and I have seen many people leave Wurm, I even know why most of them left Wurm and not a single one left because "Wurm is boring because we don't have monsters bashing down our doors and killing us while we sleep".

Here are a few reasons why Wurm doesn't have thousands more players:

• Lots of new players have left because cowards protected by game rules bashed down their fences, stole all their stuff and killed their animals. My old computer recently crashed so I have lost all my old logs, but I could find at least 50 names of players who left because of this. Things improved slightly when the FCC was made, but this is still happening a lot, especially when new servers are opening or we are getting fresh batches of new players. They never got a real chance to find out if Wurm would be a game for them.
  
• To add to the above, you would think that players who are interested in helping out new players would settle near the spawn, but thats pretty difficult because when new servers are opened they have to rush to the spawn point and compete with people who settle next to the spawn point to annoy players, grief them, troll them and just act like paranoid hermits that should have settled down on top of Dragonfang. These 2 reasons is part of why I don't feel the current compressed tutorial experience and then being launched into the middle of a premium server is the best experience for new players.
  
• Lots of new players are leaving because the amount of agressive wildlife is excessive. Wurm has struggled with this since we got new servers. It has improved a bit recently in my experience on "my" server but still needs to be balanced better.
  
• Lots of new players quit Wurm because they burn out too fast. They are overwhelmed by all the possibilties and want to do everything as fast as possible. They are not good at focusing on certain skills or projects. This is not really Wurms fault. I don't believe in limiting skills in a sandbox game. If Rolf hadn't removed skill decay years back I wouldn't be playing Wurm now.
  
• Lots of new players quit Wurm fast because of the lack of animations, everyone looks the same, the graphics are outdated (their words, not mine).
  
• Lots of players, new and old have left Wurm because of massive changes that are made overnight like the disease implementation that was bugged and wiped out most of the domestic animals during a server restart, or the constant PvE nerfs due to PvP issues, like taming, using pets as fighting companions, hitching champ bears to carts etc.
  
• Lots of players have quit due to the lack of updates in the past.
  
• Lots of players quit around the time when Rolf thought it prudent to have overpowered epic mobs roaming the Freedom servers, laying siege upon new players deeds and keeping them trapped for days, bashing down said deeds and even giving the last power to normal mobs like trolls, scorpions etc. We had to have GMs remove said overpowered Epic mobs because there weren't too many of those people screaming for strong mobs and more challenge that came rushing to aid.
  

I think its rather futile to keep listing reasons, for one you will just ignore them and keep imagining that Wurm would have thousands of players if we just had more challenge.

Looking in my crystal ball, I see thousands of new players and lots of new servers coming when Wurm goes 1.0 and Rolf starts advertising (He hasn't done this before, remember?). I think he should experiment with new server types, but I am 100% sure that at the end of the day there will always be a vast majority playing on servers that are part of the Freedom cluster, even if we get millions of players. This is how Wurm works best, despite Rolf wanting a PvP game.

Sure we can add more challenge (more diversity never hurts) but it should be in the form of OPTIONAL challenge, ie. roaming non-aggro mobs that are stronger than champion trolls, hunting servers or new server clusters.

Remember what happened when Rolf turned the old home servers into raidable overnight? Remember what happened more recently when we got griefing mobs? Rolf reverted because if he hadn't, Wurm would be dead by now.

[Zakerak 442]

That is it. Wulfgar wrote it right. And even if Busted will spam another 10 pages, it will not help anymore. In my opinion Busted is looking for something in Wurm, some features, what he is used to from another, commercial games. Perhaps he should change game, instead of trying change Wurm.

Wurm is special game. Not like others, nice looking ones intended for masses. Wurm is only for true Wurmians. Other players can try it, but they will leave sooner or later. Only true Wurmians are strong enough to stay despite harsh looking enviroment, hard skilling process, bugs and griefers and other problems.

And idea of hunting server? I do not think there will be real stable population. Perhaps some ocasional visitors, hunting there for few days. But the same you can do on Deliverance. Last time I was there, I wanted to travel 100-150 tiles from coast to visit one special deed and I had to cut through 10 hell hounds, some greenish trolls, tens of spiders and even more lions. I saw champ troll too, but in that time I was out of cotton rags, so I withdrew to friend deed. Anyone looking for some adventure should visit deep forests of Deliverance, not just coast or areas around main roads, and you will find targets for your bloodlust.

Boring in Wurm? Yes, there is as much boring as much is limited imagination and creativity of current player

Wurm is tool we can use well or worse to have a good time. More it will be filled with "prescripted adventures", less space will be left for expansion of our imagination and creativity.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Zakerak

[bdew 2,462]

As someone who keeps coming back for a few weeks then quitting again, the main problems i see with the game:

Once you get settled and have your place, there isn't much to do outside grinding crafting skills. There needs to be more interesting stuff happening on the PVE side. (And no, trolls bashing my deed walls isn't the right direction. It's just another chore.)

Crafting is extremely grindy, boring, and user unfriendly. - there's only so many times a sane person can RighClick->Create->Tools->Nails before he either stops being sane, or quits.

There is too much maintenance required to keep having fun, too many chores that need to be done that eat into my limited time that i'd rather spend on something fun.

Rolf's attitude - to me it seems unprofessional and irritating. There needs to be tons more transparency and communication between the players and the developers, and it needs to be 2-way, not "here take those nerfs and shut up, i don't care".

Disclaimer: I'm not posting this to get the game changed, and i don't believe for one second that it'll actually happen unsless rolf gets bought out (by EA or Activision, preferably ). Maybe one day someone will make a better sandbox MMO, but i don't have any high hopes for that either.

Edited September 6, 2012 by bdew

[Busted 289]

However, as the game has shown, what happens on another server (bashing etc) happens on the other freedom servers. Unless you are looking for an epic like place. This would mean no sailing between though.

Wild (Sorry, Chaos) sorta runs on a different ruleset and is connected like the freedom servers so I don't think that's a limitation.

[Busted 289]

It's exhausting keeping up with these posts so from now on I'm only going to answer stuff which hasn't already be covered at least 3 times.

Since day 1 I have enjoyed helping other people, and I have seen many people leave Wurm, I even know why most of them left Wurm and not a single one left because "Wurm is boring because we don't have monsters bashing down our doors and killing us while we sleep".

That's quite odd, if true. Nobody in all your three years has suggested they are bored with the the limited capabilities of the AI or lack of environmental challenge? Think that's unlikely, especially when it's one of the most quoted reasons in the circles I inhabit (Must be an Exodus thing).

OR it could just be it suits you better to roll out your own arguments that conveniently ignores an issue I'm highlighting. I wonder.

Anyway, your list of reasons why people quit? Yeah, I agree with most of your points, not arguing with those. There's a lot of annoying things about Wurm which drive people away and a lot of work in progress that addresses some of them. It's doesn't change the fact that people get to a stage where they suddenly find themselves bored because there's no more dragons to slay or the environment has been tamed to the point where it can be all but ignored. That's a reality we see all the time. Sure, there's other things people can do, but a sandbox is about choice. They shouldn't have to take on a huge project to keep them interested in a game. The game should offer them enough variety of different play styles that they can flit between at will to keep them interested.

Wurm's hardcore play despite the problems with the game because they assign themselves goals which keeps them going. Most players will never fit into the hardcore mindset. Most players leave before they have a chance to become hardcore. Why? All of the reasons you listed above and more, including lack of environmental challenge.

Like it or not, I firmly believe people that have never played or even really heard about Wurm would be attracted to the game if it offered more challenging PVE - even if that's just on a specialist server.

Like it or not, I accept that the majority of freedoms existing player base don't want more challenge for one reason or another. That doesn't mean we who want more from our Wurm should be denied the opportunity to voice our opinions or campaign for a place in the world where we would fit best - especially if such a place didn't impact on the pedestrian game play that the majority seem to favour.