KOS on Freedom

[Budda 2,701]

You may no longer put people on KOS on freedom settlement deeds since it was abused

[Ecrir 887]

posted a suggestion here that should satisfy both deed holders and GMs and prevent a lot of grief: http://wurmonline.com/forum/index.php?topic=63096.msg560327#new

[RomaN 890]

My position on KOS is still the same as it was 3 months ago. I am glad it is removed.

Based on the majority of responses that favour the idea of allowing KOS on Freedom. It looks as though that KOS is generally used to protect ones possessions from thieves and griefers. I don't believe there are many people out there who actually use it to grief others.

By removing KOS from Freedom and announcing a few bugfixes regarding stealing stuff on deed (crushing wemp etc), I think Rolf is trying respond proactively to stealing and encourage people to secure their properties (Dealing with problems before they have a chance to occur).

At least now with KOS removed, people will be more careful when leaving BSB's and valuables outdoors in the open.

As per Freedom Code of Conduct:

It is your responsibility to ensure the security of your area and possessions.

[MasterGeldrin 0]

My position on KOS is still the same as it was 3 months ago. I am glad it is removed.

Based on the majority of responses that favour the idea of allowing KOS on Freedom. It looks as though that KOS is generally used to protect ones possessions from thieves and griefers. I don't believe there are many people out there who actually use it to grief others.

By removing KOS from Freedom and announcing a few bugfixes regarding stealing stuff on deed (crushing wemp etc), I think Rolf is trying respond proactively to stealing and encourage people to secure their properties (Dealing with problems before they have a chance to occur).

At least now with KOS removed, people will be more careful when leaving BSB's and valuables outdoors in the open.

As per Freedom Code of Conduct:

It is your responsibility to ensure the security of your area and possessions.

Ironically, using paid for guards to enforce KoS is accepting responsibility for the security of your area. So quoting that is just proving that losing it makes it harder to ensure self sufficient security. LOL!

As for leaving things in the open, sometimes its necessary when part of village life. Instead now any time my friends from other servers come to visit I'm going to either need to keep giving them keys (which they will forget to give back or lose) to my FSB and BSB I allow them access to, that or store them in a building.

Wurm is touted as play it your way, then changes are made to say "Lol actually you can't."

[RomaN 890]

If you set up your deed permissions properly, there's almost nothing another player can do to you.

Maybe watch you rake your fields and heckle you... but then you can just /ignore them.

[MasterGeldrin 0]

there's almost nothing

[RomaN 890]

I actually can't think of anything else that people can do other than dropping stuff into your bins to spoil quality.

What else can they do to grief or steal from you?

[MasterGeldrin 0]

FSB's / BSB's in public locations. Intended for villagers, allies and trusted friends (Friends is the issue here) to pick and please from. Instead its not going to need to be locked away and require myself to be online to allow friends access to it.

Murdering livestock if a mob happens to throw down a wall.

They could if they were anal retentive enough, block your click actions by trying to stand infront of you all the time. (Childish I know but I have had a villager do that to me >.>)

Also in general if you don't want known griefers hanging around your deed, regardless of if they can do something.

I'm not saying KoS should forever be lethal, just that Deed owners should have the right to deject anyone they don't want on deed. Without having to resort to walling everything and locking everything.

Some of us want to play with open plan deeds, allow people to wander and look. But at the same time be able to say "No look come on. I don't trust you and I don't want you here leave or be dejected."

[RomaN 890]

FSB/BSB in public locations - You can build a tiny storage building, have the FSB/BSB in there and give permissions to friends/allies/villagers. KOS is not going to resolve anything here. I could go to your deed and drop 1ql iron lump into your BSB to spoil everything. You can put me on KOS but that's only going to stop me AFTER I had done something. It doesn't protect you from other people doing the same thing (We don't know who the troublemakers are until they cause trouble).

Murdering livestock - Don't quote me on this but I don't believe you are able to kill branded livestock on deed anymore. I'm not sure if this applies to unbranded livestock. Also... aren't livestock usually penned up anyway? How could they possibly get in unless a gate was smashed down or unlocked? I've tried luring a champion troll to bash down my walls before. After letting it roam around my inner walls for days, it still never happened. Once again, what good is KOS going to do here? People who walk into your pens don't automatically get put on the KOS list. We don't know who the livestock murderers are until they've actually done it and it won't protect you from other people doing the same thing if you take no preventative measures.

Blocking mouse clicks - Never seen it happen before, never heard of it. Especially since you can click through people when they clip into you. If they're doing it to harass you then that is something that should be reported to and dealt with by a GM as it breaches the Griefing rule. Using KOS to stop them might just escalate the situation. They like getting the reaction out of you and seeing you  off so they'll do it more next time.

Removing unwanted people from deed - I don't have much to comment on this. As long as everything is secure and the permissions were set up properly, they can't really do anything to harm you.

[MasterGeldrin 0]

FSB/BSB in public locations - You can build a tiny storage building, have the FSB/BSB in there and give permissions to friends/allies/villagers. KOS is not going to resolve anything here. I could go to your deed and drop 1ql iron lump into your BSB to spoil everything. You can put me on KOS but that's only going to stop me AFTER I had done something. It doesn't protect you from other people doing the same thing (We don't know who the troublemakers are until they cause trouble).

As I said earlier, works for allies / villagers fine anytime. For friends though it requires me to be online and specifically have them in my friends list and on the building. I work on a basis of trust people, and Wurm and small few bad eggs are basically telling you to be paranoid and mistrusting. The attitude of players on freedom is one step away from basically being Wild. (Hell just enable player vs player and they'll be exactly the same).

Murdering livestock - Don't quote me on this but I don't believe you are able to kill branded livestock on deed anymore. I'm not sure if this applies to unbranded livestock. Also... aren't livestock usually penned up anyway? How could they possibly get in unless a gate was smashed down or unlocked? I've tried luring a champion troll to bash down my walls before. After letting it roam around my inner walls for days, it still never happened. Once again, what good is KOS going to do here? People who walk into your pens don't automatically get put on the KOS list. We don't know who the livestock murderers are until they've actually done it and it won't protect you from other people doing the same thing if you take no preventative measures.

If someone is known and proven in the past to be a serial murderer of livestock, then they could be put on KoS (thus giving it a good use.). If it is a new griefer who is not on your KoS and succeeds in killing livestock, then yes the livestock is gone (most of us will accept that), but then that new griefer can be added to the deeds KoS.

As for your assumption all livestock are penned up, until recently I had mine free wandering as I am lucky to live on a small entirely deeded island. Then it was brought to my attention that anyone of an evil or griefing intent could just walk up to them and kill them. So much for playing in safety on a deed eh.

Blocking mouse clicks - Never seen it happen before, never heard of it. Especially since you can click through people when they clip into you. If they're doing it to harass you then that is something that should be reported to and dealt with by a GM as it breaches the Griefing rule. Using KOS to stop them might just escalate the situation. They like getting the reaction out of you and seeing you  off so they'll do it more next time.

Well they won't be able to do it more next time would they? As they wouldn't be able to step on the deed. >.>

Removing unwanted people from deed - I don't have much to comment on this. As long as everything is secure and the permissions were set up properly, they can't really do anything to harm you.

What you really mean is; thats a fair reason. someone who is unwanted stepping no your deed, even if theyre unable to do anything may still be unwanted in presence. They may be crude of language. And after a few nice polite warnings I have had people go "trololol". So sure their presence won't physically affect things but they can still be bloody annoying.

Equivalent would be a handcuffed man walking into your house (which you normally leave unlocked, because you trust your neighbours and you regularly do the neighbourly thing and pop round for tea.

That handcuffed man can't really do much, but he is still tresspassing. And trespassing is determined by the owner of the property.

So if I own a deed I should be able to deem someone a trespasser and have them evicted from the premises, be it violently or not.

[Mystecore 0]

AFAIK this has stemmed form people kos'ing over 'highways'. Why can't we just drop this notion of protected public highways, since it's supposed to be an ever-changing sandbox landscape anyway. There's always another route around, or you can make your own. Deed space should be your own, to do as you wish. If you want to protect a section of road, deed it.

Failing that, can't we just change KoS to block players entering the deed space, or insta-teleport them to the border?

[RomaN 890]

Removing unwanted people from deed - I don't have much to comment on this. As long as everything is secure and the permissions were set up properly, they can't really do anything to harm you.

What you really mean is; thats a fair reason. someone who is unwanted stepping no your deed, even if theyre unable to do anything may still be unwanted in presence. They may be crude of language. And after a few nice polite warnings I have had people go "trololol". So sure their presence won't physically affect things but they can still be bloody annoying.

No, when I said "I don't have much to comment", i mean "I don't have much to comment".

I've never had to ask anyone to leave my deed or go as far as to KOS them for saying something to me and so I'm undecided about this but now I'm starting to go against KOS on this one because:

- KOS is not going to shut them up or stop them. They can still linger around your perimeter and they might even find it fun to outrun your spirit templars on a fast horse. It also doesn't take much to kill a spirit templar and /ignore is also at your disposal.

[Smilingcat 443]

OMG look what you asked for!

Not that I was not already kos'd for no reason by a noob who planted a deed over a well traveled road just to giggle about killed passengers and put them on mute even before any conversation. But to take the option away leaves no more room to handle griefers without shutting off the complete deed to everyone you don't already know but might want to do some business with.

I do think those kos'd people should instead get a fair warning as soon as they get on the perimeter of a deed they got kos'd at so they see in event window that it would be dangerous to move further into that direction because they are to be killed by the guards of respective town.

@ Mystecore: there might be situations where you would wish kos=griefer dies to get items back from him that he took against your will or similar damaging behavior (killing your animal herd and running off with the butcher loot etc). And yes I know that is what locks are for but town members can turn out to be griefers as well, and people could login after some long time in a now deeded location and go aggro on everything just out of frustration.

Not agreed on lifting the road protection.

Main roads ( at least those without a viable alternative) should stay so that you can easily travel it by horse imo.

Why? When you want to deliver something to another person  by horse or cart, and there is a very small time frame available in which both are online, it can ruin the deal if suddenly a road became unpassable that was still ok an hour or two before.

Imagine for example Atrestos would shut their already built gates. There would be no way between FM and the east part of the map by horse or cart.

In general, deeding over important roads should just be forbidden. make the road protected like on GV, and a fair warning to the kos'd person as soon as they get on perimeter, and kos can not be abused anymore. Problem solved.

[Torluk 21]

81% in favour of keeping KoS and you remove it from all because of the transgressions of a minority.

For the love of Fo, undo this silly change please.

[Othob Rithol 700]

Ridiculously irresponsible.

[Bachus 462]

If you do not believe KOS can be a useful tool or necessity then why not invite these guys over for Tea.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9YCivDx0RQ&feature=related

People like this are an example of a good use for KOS.  

[Suntan 84]

So at this point the 1s a month guard is just going to protect me from cats? Hmm, yeah there is guard towers for that.

[Lycanthropic 523]

Guess it's time to fire my templar then, less costs

[MasterGeldrin 0]

Guess it's time to fire my templar then, less costs

Yup. Annoyingly I recently hired a templar to deal with the two griefers who live nearby. I bet If I said I was going to ask for a 2s refund (for the guard) would get a huge No. Despite my guard having done diddly squat since hiring (I don't get aggros on my isle).

[Lycanthropic 523]

Strange, I logged on just now, and all my reputations remain? Does this mean we can still KOS? Or is the mechanic still there but we arent allowed to use it?

[ago 470]

You can't add new (negative) reputations. The server will tell you that you can't KOS players on this server and remove the reputation again. The old ones remain until you set them to 0 though.

But I have no idea if the old reputations are still effective or if that has been disabled as well.

[Ivan Simconia 82]

Once again, common sense rules over mob mentality.

My work here is done .

[Kadore 926]

Once again, common sense rules over mob mentality.

My work here is done .

Not sure your work is going to help Rolf's wallet, removing 4 guards on Freedom, and starting to see less a need for deeds as a whole since they are slowly losing thier usefulness, I can now build large enclosures to scale back my cost since all I have left to me to deal with annoying people are fences and ignore.

[Othob Rithol 700]

Smugness is never an attractive trait.

[MasterGeldrin 0]

Once again, common sense rules over mob mentality.

My work here is done .

Not sure your work is going to help Rolf's wallet, removing 4 guards on Freedom, and starting to see less a need for deeds as a whole since they are slowly losing thier usefulness, I can now build large enclosures to scale back my cost since all I have left to me to deal with annoying people are fences and ignore.

This : infact, I am sorely tempted to just let my deed drop and in preparation for it fence off my island. And thanks to the buildings contained within still retain all of the control rights of a deed. The only thing I'd lose out on is deed decay reduction and at 40skill in most major skills those fences and buildings would be easily imp'd to 40 and maintained.