Merge Forage and Botanize

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

With the old system, there was a reason for them to be separate (i.e. you could perform both actions on the same tile).  However, under the new system, this just isn't possible.

 

It might be better to merge the two, since there is nothing to really distinguish them now barring an artificial limitation on what you can gather that doesn't really need to be there anymore.

 

How do we merge them?  Simple, give players a new skill called "Wild Harvest", and set it to the highest of the two skill scores.  Have it award both titles that were previously given as a fun quirk.

[Simyaci 425]

I'd say yes but I want the old system back and merging the skills mean the old system won't come back. 

[Red_ 334]

46 minutes ago, Simyaci said:

I'd say yes but I want the old system back and merging the skills mean the old system won't come back. 

 

I'm with you there. Unfortunately, it looks like we're gonna have to just continue looking forward and not backward as much as I am disappointed. I am reminding myself that there's a bunch of other skills that I enjoy, so that's why I stick around.

 

58 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

With the old system, there was a reason for them to be separate (i.e. you could perform both actions on the same tile).  However, under the new system, this just isn't possible.

 

It might be better to merge the two, since there is nothing to really distinguish them now barring an artificial limitation on what you can gather that doesn't really need to be there anymore.

 

How do we merge them?  Simple, give players a new skill called "Wild Harvest", and set it to the highest of the two skill scores.  Have it award both titles that were previously given as a fun quirk.

 

With what I said above, even though I'm not happy about the new system, and I feel like it should have just been added on top of the old system as a new feature when foraging/botanizing, I will say I agree that there's no point having 2 actions that do the same thing.

 

When I first did "forage" on a node, it automatically seemed to lock on to "botanize" instead, and then I tried botanize and it would lock on to foraging on other nodes. So to me, if that's how it works now, might as well just remove one of the skills and either keep it named as it is or as you suggested rename it.

 

Yesterday, in my mind I was speculating if this change came about because they want to clear out an older skill to make way for a new skill, and maybe this was the first step to doing so.

[Leilue 35]

i usually like the updates, but this one seems very out of place. it's clutter, makes the game feel and look like some runescape private server.

[Ekcin 2,425]

having developped my for bot skills for nearly 6 years I am strictly against that. Foraging and botanizing also appear to behave differently on the different nodes.

-1

 

[Damascus 381]

You be missing out on two titles removing one or the other  so i think a few players may not be happy .

Hope in a week the amount of nodes increases , compared to old way i was getting around a 60/100 harvest spots now its like 30/100 .

 

Plus having a tropical plant node next to snow is just weird .

[Ekcin 2,425]

Honestly, I do not know runescape servers (only knew the old 2d runescape) and I find the visuals pretty, but the mechanic shitty :).

[kochinac 1,396]

+1 there is apsolutly not a single reason for it to be two skills beside mess that would need to be solved on merging skills on developer side

[Ekcin 2,425]

Why should those who did f/b for years be punished? What is the benefit except a slot in the skill table and the erasure of work of players?

I am also using the same tools, the same forge, and same raw materials for BS, WS, JS, all the same actions. Should they be merged?

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Ekcin

[Lisimba 779]

+1, they should have been merged a long time ago.

[Milkdrop 278]

I was pondering the same thought, so I will just drop a +1 here.

Others and I would lose some effort put into either skill, but looking back this would not be the first time we lose something to move forward with the game.

 

I don't think that it is a plan of the devs to merge the skills as Red ponders though, having people skill up two now and then merge it up at a later point would be adding insult to injury, they are not that mean.

The fact that some people would lose a 99skill is most likely what would keep them from doing it though, would just be another sh..storm.

 

If not merge, even out the skill gain at least, so both can be skilled as fast as a single skill - the entire skillgain on that system needs some tweaking anyhow.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Milkdrop

[Finnn 3,322]

-1

[Ekcin 2,425]

It is a crappy and destructive idea, typically from those who never put significant effort into the skills. I see some sadistic joy to cause even more harm and distress than already done.

 

Others have put years long efforts in both skills, why do you hate it so much?

Edited December 7, 2023 by Ekcin

[Lisimba 779]

50 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

It is a crappy and destructive idea, typically from those who never put significant effort into the skills. I see some sadistic joy to cause even more harm and distress than already done.

 

"sadistic joy to cause harm and distress"? That's like a 9 out of 10 on the drama scale. You should try for maybe a 3 or a 4.

 

50 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Others have put years long efforts in both skills, why do you hate it so much?

 

We don't hate them, that's a stupid leading question.

 

I think it's a net negative to the game to have both. It's not just that they work exactly the same mechanically, they don't even have a separate identity in my mind. It's like having a "picking stuff up" skill and a "picking up stuff" skill. And yet, we do have to level them up separately, and nodes only give one or the other.

 

It sucks if that interrupts your grind but we can't keep the game in stasis for everyone who's used to something working a certain way. If it's combined you should get the higher of the two in the new skill, and you should keep all titles if new titles would be made, but we need to be able to move on.

[Ekcin 2,425]

Sure, all smithing also work exactly the same mechanically. Carp too. Best only one skill for all.

What a stupid rant. You seem determined to destroy Wurm.

Never having achieved anything significant in foraging and botanizing, and now hell bent to destroy the skills.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Ekcin

[Finnn 3,322]

36 minutes ago, Lisimba said:

 

"sadistic joy to cause harm and distress"? That's like a 9 out of 10 on the drama scale. You should try for maybe a 3 or a 4.

 

 

We don't hate them, that's a stupid leading question.

 

I think it's a net negative to the game to have both. It's not just that they work exactly the same mechanically, they don't even have a separate identity in my mind. It's like having a "picking stuff up" skill and a "picking up stuff" skill. And yet, we do have to level them up separately, and nodes only give one or the other.

 

It sucks if that interrupts your grind but we can't keep the game in stasis for everyone who's used to something working a certain way. If it's combined you should get the higher of the two in the new skill, and you should keep all titles if new titles would be made, but we need to be able to move on.

Are you joking?

 

Is digging and mining net loss because terraforming above ground involves both?

 

The two were different things, botanizing was strictly herbs(mostly), some were grinding only one skill because of the low weight.

 

The game literally have a chill vibe.. in many aspects, the "update" killed that and brought a big chaos element to it, while there's nothing new and worthy the extra work, all existing activities many liked are removed and replaced by barely functioning half-thought mess which is best implemented as side function.

 

To fit this nonsense.. we should adopt it to other skills and completely piss off everybody, add pliers to handle hot items, get burns by hot items otherwise, risking wounds, death, etc.. once tempered - the item should be completely cold, then heated again, it only brings more enjoyment from the realistic smithing activity, right? Replace the chill archaeology with a lot more and very limited node system, following the great success of for/bot updated greatest rework where nobody complained. Fishing is good as it is, there's so much to do and so little to gain, he-hhe, nobody would bother to do that. What else, terraforming.. trying to dig/mine you slip and harm yourself, you've worked for 5-10minutes, you need a break and fresh air or rest under the shade of a tree, etc...

 

Just imagine if all mechanics get some annoyance added to them to make them more fun and "realistic", because everybody loves that in a game.. where people go to get away from the realistic.. RL.

 

Makes sense? yup...

Edited December 7, 2023 by Finnn

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

4 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Why should those who did f/b for years be punished? What is the benefit except a slot in the skill table and the erasure of work of players?

I am also using the same tools, the same forge, and same raw materials for BS, WS, JS, all the same actions. Should they be merged?

I mean, I've been foraging/botanising for longer than you (nearly 11 years now I think?) - I've literally lived on those skills in the past as both a premium player and a long term free player.  So, I really hope you take this the right way when you read it but please do stop thinking about yourself for a moment.

 

Personally speaking, I've got the skills in both (more than enough for my needs with botanize slowly creeping up towards 85) and I'd lose out on this as well.

 

I'm thinking in terms of a new player who joins up tomorrow and asks "why are there two separate skills for a gathering action?".  In the past, there was good justification for this (oh, ok so it's completely separate resource pools from the same tile, one focused towards healing covers and the other towards farming starters/food), but the new system has no such justification.  The new system is here to stay - the devs never roll anything back (remember fishing?).  So, steering it back towards something that isn't so confusing is probably a good idea.

[TheTrickster 2,290]

3 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

please do stop thinking about yourself for a moment.

One issue here is, if a key enjoyable element of a game, any game, is removed and replaced with something that one finds annoying and frustrating, the options are;

1. lobby to have one's enjoyment of the game restored - explaining why.
2. stop playing
3. continue playing a game that one not only no longer enjoys but that one now finds frustrating and annoying.  In other words, behave irrationally in the interests of other people's entertainment.

Now, what you are suggesting is to forego option 1.  Which of option 2 or 3 are you advocating?

 

EDIT:  Yes, snarky.  And?

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by TheTrickster

[Muse 2,232]

It would be nice if other players could be allowed to finish both their grinds to 100.

 

I don't think it's fair that loyal players having logged in regularly each day for years to grind both skills, can have a skill removed when their skill is over 99.999.

 

I don't think it's fair at 99.9 or 97 skill for that matter, or for anyone who feels they have made some progress.  That progress has value.  It's not fair to take that progress away. That's like saying half of what they worked for and accomplished didn't happen, and the end rewards have been reduced by half as well.

 

As it stands the node system has moved these goalposts further away from everyone's reach, by more than far enough.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Muse

[kochinac 1,396]

1 hour ago, Muse said:

It would be nice if other players could be allowed to finish both their grinds to 100.

 

I don't think it's fair that loyal players having logged in regularly each day for years to grind both skills, can have a skill removed when their skill is over 99.999.

 

I don't think it's fair at 99.9 or 97 skill for that matter, or for anyone who feels they have made some progress.  That progress has value.  It's not fair to take that progress away. That's like saying half of what they worked for and accomplished didn't happen, and the end rewards have been reduced by half as well.

 

As it stands the node system has moved these goalposts further away from everyone's reach, by more than far enough.

I don't think merging and removing are same things here. if someone has both skills to around 99, merge would result in one skill of 100(i mean this is just colorfull example but certanly decently precise formula can be devised to merge both efforts to grind into one skill), can't see why is that bad for such people. 

There is a problem of loosing two 100 titles but is it really that big of a problem? i mean if it's that important, let new skill give both titles upon hitting 100.

[Ekcin 2,425]

Merging is removing. It is the stupid microeconomics' view that creates suggestions like  merging existing servers and forcefully resettle players destroying their  deeds and erasing their work, of course, "generous compensation" offered for the deportation.

 

This suggestion breathes the same foul spirit, destroying the two skills because the proponents never cared, were too  lazy or to dumb to  recognize the differences and specialities of the two skills. Some in the other threads understood, and described why they preferred to develop the one or the other of both.

 

I hope this stupid and cruel  non idea gets ignored.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Ekcin

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

4 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

One issue here is, if a key enjoyable element of a game, any game, is removed and replaced with something that one finds annoying and frustrating, the options are;

1. lobby to have one's enjoyment of the game restored - explaining why.
2. stop playing
3. continue playing a game that one not only no longer enjoys but that one now finds frustrating and annoying.  In other words, behave irrationally in the interests of other people's entertainment.

Now, what you are suggesting is to forego option 1.  Which of option 2 or 3 are you advocating?

 

EDIT:  Yes, snarky.  And?

 

 

False binary at its best (well, false trinary).  I'd say {1,3} is the option most people take - fight on for the best but hedge for the worst.  This is a hedge that at least sees being able to skill consistently, this preparing for the inevitable worst.  Or have you forgotten fishing 2.0?

 

44 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

I hope this stupid and cruel  non idea gets ignored.

I mean, so far you've yet to offer any real valid counterpoint and degenerated to name calling so I'd say you're done.

 

2 hours ago, Muse said:

As it stands the node system has moved these goalposts further away from everyone's reach, by more than far enough.

I agree, and what I propose does help resolve that a little.  Let me pose the question: lets assume a weighted average score for both skills were given (with higher skills offering more of a pull effect to reflect the exponential progress gap).  Would that satisfy your qualms?

 

In this way the effort is rewarded, and the goalposts moved back towards a more favourable place.

 

However, this would upset a fair few who were previously over a threshold for new resources if one skill lagged, and would likely harm players in terms of item ql found (not many have them exactly equal).  You'd have a lot of angry players, but the easier skilling might help mollify this.

 

Or you could just keep the skills separate and gated to "the old guard" who skilled them pre-change.

[Lisimba 779]

8 hours ago, Finnn said:

Is digging and mining net loss because terraforming above ground involves both?

 

Those pass the very low bar of at least feeling different.

 

8 hours ago, Finnn said:

The two were different things, botanizing was strictly herbs(mostly), some were grinding only one skill because of the low weight.

 

Strictly herbs. Mostly. Except for barley, oats, rye, and wheat of course. And the spices, of course. And... acorns? And garlic. Best you can say about it is that it's plant parts. But then it turns out that foraging is also basically plant parts, only with a few rocks and eggs thrown in.

 

Barley, oats, rye, wheat, rice? They're all grains. First four were botanizing, last one was foraging.

Woad and wemp plants? Both non-edible utility plants. Woad was botanizing, wemp was foraging.

All of the vegetables? Foraging, for some reason. Except for garlic! Garlic was botanizing again.

Acorns were botanizing, but all of the seedlings were foraging. This would make more sense if it was swapped.

 

Both skills have an identity crisis because they don't really have separate identities. Botanizing kind of tries to be herbalizing. Foraging is mostly botanizing. It seems things were just randomly distributed over both in an attempt to give each roughly the same amount of stuff to do. They should be just one skill.

 

8 hours ago, Finnn said:

The game literally have a chill vibe.. in many aspects, the "update" killed that and brought a big chaos element to it, while there's nothing new and worthy the extra work, all existing activities many liked are removed and replaced by barely functioning half-thought mess which is best implemented as side function.

 

I find it pretty chill to hop from node to node. More chill than before, as now I don't have to keep track of what bits of terrain I already covered.

 

8 hours ago, Finnn said:

To fit this nonsense.. we should adopt it to other skills and completely piss off everybody, add pliers to handle hot items, get burns by hot items otherwise, risking wounds, death, etc.. once tempered - the item should be completely cold, then heated again, it only brings more enjoyment from the realistic smithing activity, right? Replace the chill archaeology with a lot more and very limited node system, following the great success of for/bot updated greatest rework where nobody complained. Fishing is good as it is, there's so much to do and so little to gain, he-hhe, nobody would bother to do that. What else, terraforming.. trying to dig/mine you slip and harm yourself, you've worked for 5-10minutes, you need a break and fresh air or rest under the shade of a tree, etc...

 

It would help you a lot if you stopped with making stuff up and then getting angry about it.

[Ekcin 2,425]

Quote

would upset a fair few

So not caring about "a fair few" is not cruel towards them? Holy ignorance.

[Lisimba 779]

39 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

I agree, and what I propose does help resolve that a little.  Let me pose the question: lets assume a weighted average score for both skills were given (with higher skills offering more of a pull effect to reflect the exponential progress gap).  Would that satisfy your qualms?

 

An option is to simply add the efforts for both together. If you spent 100 hours on each, you'd get the equivalent of 200 hours in the merged skill.

 

The way skilling works in Wurm, each nine is about the same amount of work. If you had both at 90, the combined skill would be about 99. If you had both at 99, the combined skill would be about 99.99, and so on. It's fairly easy to come up with a formula that can merge any two numbers this way.

 

(Yes, this means that 99.99 is only halfway to 100. Actually it's a bit below halfway because the first 9 is easier than the rest.)