A warning to those who interact with Bipolarbear and Kinganon - be warned of false flag bidding

[Kierkegaard 110]

So..... is the item still up for auction because I'm looking for a new saddle?

[Perseii 19]

5 hours ago, Kinganon said:

Are you kidding me? I'm being personally tagged in the post, and have people suggest not to make trades with me because I placed a bid without thinking it through. I'm not going to sit idly by while people spin lies about me.

I'd imagine this is exactly how the private slayers feel. They constantly have people speaking ill of them, refusing to trade with them, and conducting personal campaigns against them for the crime of *checks notes* playing the game exactly the way it was intended.

 

The game code and rules are designed to make unique slays END GAME CONTENT. They aren't intended to be massive, server-breaking events with hundreds of low level players and alts hacking and slashing at dragons with pitchforks and walking away with .00 weight scale drops. The game code considers low level players "leeches" and reduces the overall drop of scale or hide based on how many are participating. In other words, the devs specifically didn't intend for unique slays to be come-one come-all events. They intended for them to be conducted by high level players in order to maximize the rewards. The biggest evidence in support of private slays is the fact that if all slays were made public it would take 30-50 YEARS for an NFI player to create a set of dragon armor at the current unique spawn and scale/hide drop rates. Obviously that is not what the devs intended. They intended for end game players to seek and slay end game monsters in order to obtain end game rewards.

 

Frankly this should seem obvious on its face, even without knowing the game code, rules, or math underpinning it. It is silly to think that every single player should have access to the top tier armor type in the game, or that newbies still sporting starter gear should be walking around with a "Dragonslayer" title. That is not how any game works, and that is DEFINITELY not how anything in this particular game works, where every reward is tied to massive amounts of effort. You will never convince me that I'm supposed to spend hours grinding tailoring and farming cotton just to make a quality tunic, but I should be able swing at a dragon that someone else hunted and trapped with 10 FS and a crappy starter sword, and suddenly the realm will herald me as a "Dragonslayer". It just doesn't make sense. A player that level can't even land a hit on a dragon, let alone slay one.

 

If someone chooses to hold a public slay, great. There are certainly data-based arguments to be made that this is the most efficient way to get unique bloods into the market. But I don't understand the anti-private slayer philosophy at it's core, which seems to be based in personal feelings and a sense of entitlement rather than the cold hard facts that support private slays as being the intended way of handling uniques (particularly dragons).

 

I'll also add that a recent public slay host was so discouraged by the crappy comments they received from players complaining about the way they set their event up that they felt they no longer wish to make their claims public. The attitude that slays belong to everyone is RUINING the experience of hosting public slays, and ultimately making more people likely to go private. You may think you are "hurting" private slayers with this attitude but you are only creating more of them, as many have been driven to private slaying specifically due to the selfish and entitled ways people behave regarding public events. So maybe think about that as you continue to disparage private slayers who have historically been the ones to host many of the public slays, and now see no point in helping out people who will treat them as villains regardless of the myriad ways they have helped the community. This particularly includes the auctioneer in question in this thread, whose decision to no longer "directly" speak ill of private slayers was rooted in an event that they helped host, made possible by private slayers who trapped the unique when the claimants were unable to, and then proceeded to speak ill of private players at the very event they had facilitated.

 

Sorry to come across so harsh, but I am beyond sick of seeing the active players who do so much for the community, often quietly and behind the scenes, being the target of these personal vendettas and slanderous campaigns against them, all for the "crime" of simply choosing to pursue end-game content and end-game rewards. It's wrong, and it's not supported by anything in the rules, code, or spirit of the game.

 

 

Edited March 11 by Perseii

[SweetSerenade 183]

I want to say that if Bipolar had have messaged me as soon as possible that my bid was no longer valid I probably wouldn't have made this post, the fact he left it three days to artificially raise the price which somebody could have outbid me on is perhaps the worst part for me.

Edited March 12 by SweetSerenade

[Guvna 110]

Stand on business son, decline that sale.

[Emi 181]

Hopefully staff members are paying attention to this thread as it is very unpleasant to have people doing fake bids, and auction bias which has no place on an auction thread.

 

More moderation on auctions would be ideal. Especially when its so obvious like this.

 

[Ajala 587]

10 hours ago, Emi said:

Hopefully staff members are paying attention to this thread as it is very unpleasant to have people doing fake bids, and auction bias which has no place on an auction thread.

 

More moderation on auctions would be ideal. Especially when its so obvious like this.

 

 

It's particularly irritating when people place a bid, then retract it and say they got a better price elsewhere.

Edited March 12 by Yldrania
moderation edit

[Viceren 182]

[Kian 170]

2 hours ago, Perseii said:

I'd imagine this is exactly how the private slayers feel. They constantly have people speaking ill of them, refusing to trade with them, and conducting personal campaigns against them for the crime of *checks notes* playing the game exactly the way it was intended.

 

The game code and rules are designed to make unique slays END GAME CONTENT. They aren't intended to be massive, server-breaking events with hundreds of low level players and alts hacking and slashing at dragons with pitchforks and walking away with .00 weight scale drops. The game code considers low level players "leeches" and reduces the overall drop of scale or hide based on how many are participating. In other words, the devs specifically didn't intend for unique slays to be come-one come-all events. They intended for them to be conducted by high level players in order to maximize the rewards. The biggest evidence in support of private slays is the fact that if all slays were made public it would take 30-50 YEARS for an NFI player to create a set of dragon armor at the current unique spawn and scale/hide drop rates. Obviously that is not what the devs intended. They intended for end game players to seek and slay end game monsters in order to obtain end game rewards.

 

Frankly this should seem obvious on its face, even without knowing the game code, rules, or math underpinning it. It is silly to think that every single player should have access to the top tier armor type in the game, or that newbies still sporting starter gear should be walking around with a "Dragonslayer" title. That is not how any game works, and that is DEFINITELY not how anything in this particular game works, where every reward is tied to massive amounts of effort. You will never convince me that I'm supposed to spend hours grinding tailoring and farming cotton just to make a quality tunic, but I should be able swing at a dragon that someone else hunted and trapped with 10 FS and a crappy starter sword, and suddenly the realm will herald me as a "Dragonslayer". It just doesn't make sense. A player that level can't even land a hit on a dragon, let alone slay one.

 

If someone chooses to hold a public slay, great. There are certainly data-based arguments to be made that this is the most efficient way to get unique bloods into the market. But I don't understand the anti-private slayer philosophy at it's core, which seems to be based in personal feelings and a sense of entitlement rather than the cold hard facts that support private slays as being the intended way of handling uniques (particularly dragons).

 

I'll also add that a recent public slay host was so discouraged by the crappy comments they received from players complaining about the way they set their event up that they felt they no longer wish to make their claims public. The attitude that slays belong to everyone is RUINING the experience of hosting public slays, and ultimately making more people likely to go private. You may think you are "hurting" private slayers with this attitude but you are only creating more of them, as many have been driven to private slaying specifically due to the selfish and entitled ways people behave regarding public events. So maybe think about that as you continue to disparage private slayers who have historically been the ones to host many of the public slays, and now see no point in helping out people who will treat them as villains regardless of the myriad ways they have helped the community. This particularly includes the auctioneer in question in this thread, whose decision to no longer "directly" speak ill of private slayers was rooted in an event that they helped host, made possible by private slayers who trapped the unique when the claimants were unable to, and then proceeded to speak ill of private players at the very event they had facilitated.

 

Sorry to come across so harsh, but I am beyond sick of seeing the active players who do so much for the community, often quietly and behind the scenes, being the target of these personal vendettas and slanderous campaigns against them, all for the "crime" of simply choosing to pursue end-game content and end-game rewards. It's wrong, and it's not supported by anything in the rules, code, or spirit of the game.

 

 

 

Absolutely spot on.

Discrimination in any form should have no place here.

[SweetSerenade 183]

8 hours ago, Kinganon said:

Are you kidding me? I'm being personally tagged in the post, and have people suggest not to make trades with me because I placed a bid without thinking it through. I'm not going to sit idly by while people spin lies about me.

You knowingly and deliberately made a bid to raise the auction price futher after a bid you knew to be invalid.

You only cancelled that bid when you were called out, if you were not called out I would bet a significant amount that you would not have retracted that bid.

[Kinganon 140]

29 minutes ago, SweetSerenade said:

You knowingly and deliberately made a bid to raise the auction price futher after a bid you knew to be invalid.

You only cancelled that bid when you were called out, if you were not called out I would bet a significant amount that you would not have retracted that bid.

No, I did not. I made a mistake and undid it as soon as I realized. Something I would have done regardless of you calling me out or not.

 

I welcome you to add your reasoning for just outright blocking me in-game when I'm trying to help settle the matter in-game in a civilized matter.

Edited March 12 by Kinganon

[TheTrickster 2,290]

I have had nothing to do with any of the involved parties, as far as I know.

 

This thread's very name seems libelous, and is at the very least a misrepresentation of the actual facts.  There was no "false flag" and it wasn't manipulation to drive the price up.  It was an Auction not intended for everybody but posted as a public auction and the disclaimer was unclear.  With no background, I assumed that there were individuals that the seller would not do business with and was saying so.  Arguably, that was inappropriate, and as many have said this isn't the way to go about it.  However, I think the "don't make drama" embedded in that would certainly seem (to me) to be saying that the seller was avoiding disparaging or otherwise calling out people.   Poorly handled, maybe, but not what the OP (and follow ups) claim.

 

I honestly cannot seriously consider that anyone thinks the Bipolar was trying to use false bids to drive the price up.  

 

What I do think is that SweetSerenade is mighty disappointed not only over missing out but over being hobbled out of the running and not knowing.  Fair enough - that would be disappointing and frustrating and probably deserving an apology.  However, to instead opt to pillory others rather than seek some kind of rapprochement, is I think totally unwarranted.

 

Probably unpopular views.  Likely to upset SweetSerenade, which is not my goal.  Hopefully a perspective from outside of this whole thing, seeing it as relational rather than commercial, might be worth something.

 

My 2 irons, adjusted for inflation.

 

 

[SweetSerenade 183]

15 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

I have had nothing to do with any of the involved parties, as far as I know.

 

This thread's very name seems libelous, and is at the very least a misrepresentation of the actual facts.  There was no "false flag" and it wasn't manipulation to drive the price up.  It was an Auction not intended for everybody but posted as a public auction and the disclaimer was unclear.  With no background, I assumed that there were individuals that the seller would not do business with and was saying so.  Arguably, that was inappropriate, and as many have said this isn't the way to go about it.  However, I think the "don't make drama" embedded in that would certainly seem (to me) to be saying that the seller was avoiding disparaging or otherwise calling out people.   Poorly handled, maybe, but not what the OP (and follow ups) claim.

 

I honestly cannot seriously consider that anyone thinks the Bipolar was trying to use false bids to drive the price up.  

 

What I do think is that SweetSerenade is mighty disappointed not only over missing out but over being hobbled out of the running and not knowing.  Fair enough - that would be disappointing and frustrating and probably deserving an apology.  However, to instead opt to pillory others rather than seek some kind of rapprochement, is I think totally unwarranted.

 

Probably unpopular views.  Likely to upset SweetSerenade, which is not my goal.  Hopefully a perspective from outside of this whole thing, seeing it as relational rather than commercial, might be worth something.

 

My 2 irons, adjusted for inflation.

 

 

I would agree if they had have addressed it when I made the bid 3 days before, the fact it was only addressed when it looked like I might win it could have artificially driven the price up

[TheTrickster 2,290]

4 hours ago, SweetSerenade said:

I want to say that if Bipolar had have messaged me as soon as possible that my bid was no longer valid I probably wouldn't have made this post, the fact he left it three days to artificially raise the price which somebody could have outbid me on is perhaps the worst part for me.

 

5 minutes ago, SweetSerenade said:

I would agree if they had have addressed it when I made the bid 3 days before, the fact it was only addressed when it looked like I might win it could have artificially driven the price up

 

Well, there we go.  That issue of bidding in good faith and not knowing.

 

For what it's worth, while the delay could be interpreted as artificially raising the price it could also be interpreted as "ignoring bids" except if no further bids were incoming for a few days that prompted Bipolar to reach out.  Again, not a great way to handle it, but not necessarily attempting to manipulate the auction for a higher price.  While I do get that the effect of ignoring bids rather than rejecting them does indeed increase the price, I don't believe (and yes, that is my subjective assessment) that this was the intended goal.

 

 

 

[Silviustrz 30]

5 hours ago, Guvna said:

Stand on business son, decline that sale.

[Borstaskor 503]

There are so many people who don't have a clue about how much time and effort it takes, both in game by going out searching for them and trapping them but also off game to keep track of spawn timers, keep track of hotspots to search, etc.

Like, not even a little bit of a clue.

 

Want everything by doing nothing.

Edited March 12 by Borstaskor

[Simyaci 423]

7 hours ago, gnomegates said:

 

To address this question only, it has been stated by forum mods in the past, that the person listing the auction has full control of how and why they wish to sell. There have been no rules set up as to how auctions should run, leaving it to the person listing to choose how to deal with the auction. This does include anything during and after the auction. The person selling the item can choose at anytime to remove someone or just not sell at all. There is nothing in place to force someone to honor an auction, nor to honor any bids that someone places. It goes back to "your reputation is your own" thinking that you live or die by the reputation that you build. 

 

I personally am of the mindset that one should honor their word, if a item is listed to the public, then it should run its course and sold to the highest bidder, period. Any rules that the seller whishes to place should be stated up front, so everyone knows what they are getting into, and then let the auction run its course. 

 

This tells me all I need to know about how auctions are rigged on the forums, as there are absolutely no downsides to rigging them or outright blatantly overriding them.

 

If they don't get caught and keep it quiet, they won't even have a name and shame topic. If they get caught by being boastful about it or blatantly override it after the auction is over, they can get a name and shame topic like this but then it gets filled with people who support them leaving positive messages in agreement as either friends, people who think alike, people who dislike the other side etc. A bunch of people even threaten to get the name and shamer in trouble through slander or joke about libel (Defamation). Even the people who get name and shamed are feeling comfortable enough that they are throwing around threats and anger outbursts. 

 

If this forum topic was a habitat where one of those two sides could live, it would be the name and shamed who could live in it, even thrive in it.

 

Apparently, the forum auctions are more of a joke than I thought they were. There are absolutely no downsides to doing whatever you want as a host. No downsides whatsoever. You must be absolutely needing that auctioned item or have no idea what the norm is or what the mindset is regarding how forum auctions are supposed to work to be actually bidding in a forum auction. 

 

We urgently need an ingame auction house. I'm glad we are actually getting it so I can actually participate in the ingame auctions knowing there is a fee to pay for rigging and the host has no power whatsoever after the auction has been completed. Rigging bids might also be subject to ingame rules as the action happens ingame and not on the forums, with GMs being able to easily check the bids, their timelines and which character has made them and take action due it being done within their jurisdiction. 

[Ekcin 2,419]

1 hour ago, Simyaci said:

 

This tells me all I need to know about how auctions are rigged on the forums, as there are absolutely no downsides to rigging them or outright blatantly overriding them.

This tells me that you do not read forum rules, where it is explicitly stated that the team takes no responsibilities for auctions, and the auction starter should care for her reputation.

The whole drama here is as ridiculous as Bipolarbear's crusade against private slayers.

[Cista 430]

1 hour ago, Simyaci said:

There are absolutely no downsides to doing whatever you want as a host.

 

I don't understand why you keep saying that. The downside of rigging the forum auction is that I and others will never buy anything from these two clowns again. They have named and shamed themselves.

 

That consequence would never happen in the ingame auction house, where there is no documentation of anything once the auction is removed, and bidders may even be anonymous during the auction. 

 

Edited March 12 by Cista

[Ekcin 2,419]

2 minutes ago, Cista said:

I don't understand why you keep saying that. The downside of rigging the forum auction is that I and others will never buy anything from these two clowns again.

I doubt. If the offer is ok, why not trying. If one is a private slayer, there are alts 😎. And I see three clowns here at minimum, the starter of this clownish thread included. Maybe tens of them with all of us participating ..

 

 

[Simyaci 423]

I'm sure every auction rigger is as ''outspoken'' as Bipolarbear appears to have been, which is what got him into trouble. His real crime is being a loudmouth. He probably thought he could run his mouth because he saw no problem with what he is doing. If he was (or has been) doing this only to discriminate, he must have thought there is no issue with it as long as he is not doing it to withdraw his own item or to increase the value.

 

On the other hand, the people who do it frequently knowing there is a huge problem with what they are doing (increasing value or withdrawing when desired value is not reached) but only if they get caught, could get away with it forever by just being quiet keeping it to themselves.

 

And if they do get caught, the worst that can happen is a name and shame topic where they get massive support, especially if they are a part of a kingdom where you don't let your buddies out to dry no matter what. Someone could be rigging his auctions for years and after getting caught for the first time, he'd get a name and shame topic where he gets to throw anger outbursts at the original poster and his buddy gets to threaten people with punishment for slander while most commentors are attacking the original poster and making jokes about how the original poster could be in big trouble for doing this. 

 

What happens in a frequent rigger's (not talking about this topic by any means but the example above) auctions after that? Nothing. He can use another account and keep doing what he has been doing as if nothing at all has happened.

 

There are absolutely no downsides to doing whatever you want to do as a host on the forum auctions. I am going to continue saying this because it is true.

 

There are going to be downsides to doing it on the ingame auctions. There is going to be at least one guaranteed downside. I am expecting there to be more. 

Edited March 12 by Simyaci

[Cista 430]

17 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

And I see three clowns here at minimum, the starter of this clownish thread included. Maybe tens of them with all of us participating ..

 

And you can make that judgment, because it is all documented right here on the forum.

 

When I am bidding on an auction for a PMK wagon or whatever, I always take into account the reputation of the opponent.

If it is a known person I go all in.

If it is a non-entity I stop bidding at a lower price, but I also know that the documentation of the bids of that entity will remain preserved and relevant.

 

That is also the advantage of a forum auction. 

And yet another advantage is you can use a two-year old auction as price check, which I also do all the time.

 

Edited March 12 by Cista

[Ekcin 2,419]

Honestly, if I ever were to bid in an auction (never did so far), I would look for item and price, nothing else. I would not allow me to be carried away by bidding contests, rigged or not.

 

Of course, it the auctioner would announce that no private slayers (while so far I never participated but cannot exclude to do so in the future, and don't know whether alliance slayings on Epic count as private), no PvPers, no male characters, or those starting be 'E' were allowed I would abstain.

[Cista 430]

20 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

if I ever were to bid in an auction (never did so far)

 

But I do. A lot.

 

And I also hold auctions every month. So forgive me for not taking your advise on how much to bid, and for believing I am the one with better knowledge on how secure the auctions are and how often they are rigged. 

 

They are hardly ever rigged on the forum because of the documentation. And this is why, and sorry for repeating myself for the third time, big auctions in games like EVE remained on the forums.

 

So to sum up, I am not at all opposed to them experimenting with an ingame auction house. It will be a fun addition. But the fact is, I would never bid high price on a wagon if the opponent bidders are anonymous and/or all traces of the auction disappear after the fact. A seller would be better off having that auction on the forum.

 

Edited March 12 by Cista

[Ekcin 2,419]

Btw., it is not that I have no experience in auctions because I do/did not participate as a bidder. I am following auctions started by friends regularly. So far I did not find things interesting me on auctions.

 

You may have a point that the lasting documentation contributes to honesty, better than policing by GM/moderators would. And maybe auction house will be riskier. But that is a different discussion, best brought up in jaytoo's thread in suggestions.

[Tor 530]

Just a love squabbles in our tight knit community.