Maps With Player Created Markings- Past, Present, And Future.

[joedobo 1,187]

 

I could be wrong but I think history has shown many players want maps with markings for roads and villages. If the new maps don't support this feature wouldn't it be like coding in a feature that is destined to be obsolete and under appreciated? Players will quickly abandoned the map and seek out ones that fulfill what it lacks.

 

Another issue I'm concerned with is the anti-map crowd will try and use these new maps as leverage to take away the higher detailed maps. I've seen this type of thing in the past, as an example, when this group responds to complaints, "You can find your general location". They don't like maps at all and any excuse to get rid of them will be capitalized on. Despite these people's efforts we always comeback to the same thing. Should we not learn a lesson from that?

 

ps. I love to see some unbiased poll questions.  I'd end up writing something biased since I hate the anti-map crowd so much.

 

This isn't my main point but I just have to mention it. We can make much better markings if we had a means to get player position. The ability could be severely restricted with long cooldowns. I think that is a reasonable compromise. It helps us make maps yet isn't a instant update indicator. Such an ability could easily fit in Wurm's lore if it was done with a magic item.

 

[Outlaw 697]

Everything in wurm is player created. (Well, pretty much and that's the whole idea) As we don't have the tools in-game to actually design and create maps, a meta gaming approach is what is required. The players who have dedicated time and effort into creating such maps have done a terrific job. (And still do)

 

All we really need is a way to view said maps in-game. We don't need some "You are in this general location" dot or marker. That is easily worked out with a quick glance around you.

 

It seems that we are trying to fix something that isn't really broken. (Again) There could be an in-game item called "Map" that acts much like a flint & steel. You start with one and never lose it, but it can be dropped and created too. Quality has no effect. All this "Map" would do is display a popup window of the player-made map in-game.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Outlaw

[Shads 170]

if you really want a map with markers, just save a pic of the map to your computer, go into ms paint/photoshop or any other program or website that allows editing, or print of the picture, get a pen and draw the markers onto the map.

 

No need to say where you are at all, so many people dislike the idea of the maps already, I like the way they've been designed and think they're fine as is, Yes they should be no drop. No need to create them if they can't be dropped/lost etc.

[Wraithglow 787]

 All this "Map" would do is display a popup window of the player-made map in-game.

 

The trouble is for this to happen you either need to link to an external site (unsafe?) or give the community mappers access to something on the server (even less safe?).

 

I like that they are putting maps into the game. I'm happy that they don't show deeds, roads, etc as that would require the game to keep updating the image, which I think is impractical (it's hard enough doing this with the community maps and that's just when people can be bothered to submit updates!). Deed locations are also a complication, as people often don't want their location known and I respect that.

 

I would have no problem with a cartography function in-game, however, if this only recorded the tiles you stepped on. For example, you could activate a "survey" action on a parchment, and your movement speed would be reduced (skill dependent) and every tile you stepped on would be recorded to the map. This would require you to re-survey areas to keep it updated, have benefits for increased skill (faster movement while surveying), and would also prevent the 6th sense problem of spotting hidden settlements in pvp. If you wanted to then put markers on that map and trade it to others, I don't see a problem with it. However this all has significant data storage and transfer issues - either the item or the world itself has to record information about what should be shown on every individual map.

 

In any case, I don't like the idea of GPS-like markers. I don't think you should be able to see in advance when you are approaching things or going in the incorrect direction.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Wraithglow

[joedobo 1,187]

Quick question: How many of you would only use the original map dump that Rolf game us with no marking? How many players would prefer that map over the current community map?

 

Is there a way we can see how often those maps are access? I downloaded mine a long time ago and don't even remember where they are hosted.

______

 

Player created road and village data can work!

SVG can use a PNG raster as the background and then on a separate layer add vector based markings. Pure SVG data is very small and it seems it should be possible to create  a wiki of these marker layers. Add revision control so we know when its been edited, can undue things, and can notify players if a newer version is available. SVG is simple text so I'd think we could make a editor tool for importing, changing, and exporting. If we could import a custom made svg file for a marking layer we could make then with Inkscape. 

[Radni 1,089]

I would much prefer having to keep Rolf's original map dumps if I was forced between a community one and he originals.. Then I can change them and ad notes, Etc.

At the moment though, the community map fulfills my needs.. In the rare occasion I use it.

Either way, play long enough and explore ( month tops) and you will know your surroundings/island like the back of your hand

Edit: I also don't believe you realize the ramifications of an ingame map with precise "you are here" locators on the pvp servers...

Pull up your map, be in the general area, look at where you are.. Blammo, you're essentially X tiles away from enemy deed.

We've played just fine without maps for years now (ingame ones) if anything, just allow us ingame usage to the original map dump and the top rated community map(s) and, possibly, the ability to ingame add our own landmarks.

Any you are here points are un-needed.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Radni

[Gerugon 60]

..the ability to ingame add our own landmarks.

Any you are here points are un-needed.

 

Totaly agree, making your own notes (without having the ability to copy paste points of interested into the map somehow) would be great because that way each player has to explore on their own and its rewarded (with a better map). And as said before a "you are here" would totaly ruin the emersion for one and destroy and home advantage of a defending player on pvp islands.

[Tpikol 1,057]

Totaly agree, making your own notes (without having the ability to copy paste points of interested into the map somehow) would be great because that way each player has to explore on their own and its rewarded (with a better map). And as said before a "you are here" would totaly ruin the emersion for one and destroy and home advantage of a defending player on pvp islands.

i dont know about pvp servers but on pve there would be no real need to explore even if they do that,people can just copy the current community maps using their own markers and have a pretty decent map with 0 exploring.

 

and so far devs have said several times on other threads that there will be no "you are here" marker and i agree with that.

 

 

my fear is that if they just do what the announced so far,blank maps with no markers,and no custom markers,it will be just a useles feature that nobody uses,because community will still be much better to find out where u are and the only result of the ingame maps will be new players complaning about how the ingame maps suck and the community maps are better.

[BrQQQ 2,854]

Quick question: How many of you would only use the original map dump that Rolf game us with no marking? How many players would prefer that map over the current community map?

The nice thing about the original mapdump is that every pixel shows a tile. When players edit maps and add stuff to it, they often save it as JPG. When you zoom in slightly on those maps, all you see is a blurr because of the reduced quality. If you want to see your surroundings, or want to see how a small area looks like, mapdumps are usually much more useful.

Anyway, I think the point is that it kind of depends which map you want to use. Like if you're new to the server, a detailed map with villages will likely be more useful than an empty mapdump.

[Protunia 735]

 

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38283941/Wurm/forum/Desertion_v006.png

 

 

here is the maps discussion btw and the new map that they are working on for in game.

 

like I said in that thread.....

 

 

 

There ya go keep it simple and let players one day use a skill to develop and create their own maps to some degree possibly.

 

Looks good.

 

I wouldn't even mind a fog of war type of thing for places you have never been if these maps end up with any type of details.

 

You could show the map, but no details until players visit a place and/or have possibly some sort of skills in map making.

 

Maybe even reverse fog of war if you do not travel there frequently you lose some details. 

 

I guess it all depends on how far you end up going with this thing, but its a nice start and works for me.

 

 

 

Btw I think it should be tile by tile details to be revealed in your map that you visit personally.

 

This way if you can't get into an area you do not get to know whats in there.

 

I cannot see some fog of war 50 tile radius that reveals every single tile you have not seen.

 

I also cannot see maps in game that reveal every single tile as it is changed in the world.

 

No deeds, no roads, no nothing until you actually go there and touch the tiles or token.....

 

Yes to showing the starter deed where players begin and thats it.

 

As far as trading maps I think there should be a required skill to be able to view and read some one else's map.

 

Higher skills would enable people to place more types of markers on their map.

 

I dont mind the map being plain like it is at all btw and think its fine like it is now.

 

But if you are going to demand more and more to be shown in detail then there should be some skill attached to making and reading maps.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Protunia

[joedobo 1,187]

The nice thing about the original mapdump is that every pixel shows a tile. 

I've seen community maps that have one pixel per tile resolution. 

________

 

Its interesting how many folks want to ignore what has happened in the past. Quickly I"ll recall some past events.

 

1.  JKH/MRH - No map dump so players try to make maps. There are lots of arguments about maps, we get a map dump for Christmas, players mark it up with roads and villages to make a community map

 

2. Independence - No map dump so players try to make maps. There are lots of arguments about maps. We get a map dump eventually. players mark it up with roads and villages to make a community map.

 

3. Deli and others - No map dump so players try to make maps. There are lots of arguments about maps. We get a map dump. players mark it up with roads and villages to make a community map.

 

4.. NOW..Again the same crowd is trying to limit the usefulness of maps. How about this time we learn from our mistakes? The new map should be something that functionally is better then current community maps.

 

 

I see many vocal people trying to push there personal options and not be willing to recognize that history is giving us a clear indicator of what maps should be. I personalty want minimaps with instant position indicators but I'm not asking for that.

[Protunia 735]

The in game map system could be just as good or better than some of the current player made maps with some effort required I agree.

 

I do not think that you should get an instant map dump of all terrain changes. items, and deeds placed in game.

 

The player made maps have taken much time to make and a lot of effort by the players.

 

Any Map in game that would be comparable to the player maps made should take the some effort as well.

 

Having some skill and/or travelling involved like we have seen suggested many times for map making/reading in game is one way of requiring this.

 

As far as players suggesting things......or being vocal about how maps should be.......well we all see who is leading the pack on this.

[AnarchistRise 320]

Map's are a bloody joke. We have them, player made. People put a lot of work into them. Hell they even state "You are here" on spawn. What we don't need is a waste of dev time to incorporate a map that will probably be less accurate than these maps. Want to do something great? Spend dev time Updating the Ingame wiki, so "maps" brings up the Player made ones. All I see is this being added, new players going, "Oh, this in game map is horrible" and quitting because of Slow and somewhat unrewarding game play. face it, wurm isn't going to appeal to 90% of the world. And no amount of bandaids will fix this. We live in a world of Instant gratification and pay to win hand holding, sorry to break the news. Sure, we grab players every now and then, but its case they have been looking for this their whole lives, not some bored as #### teenager on a Saturday morning looking for a new game because WoW got stale.

 

You cannot "Fix" player retention without redoing everything wurm is about. and when we get to that stage, Rolf, please;
Lower the prices back to something reasonable,

spend some time fixing Still broken things, then Stop all development,

 

And then make a completely new game that is a generic carbon copy of every other game in the world that is flashy as hell, fast and rewarding and has a cash shop for shiney things. That's your "player retention." That is where you make money.

 

 

on a side not, just fix combat and all the bugs, and slash the cost back a bit, add more than one character per sub, and make  people not rage quit over stuff like that, not because they don't have a "map" (which infact, they do)  
 

[joedobo 1,187]

@ Protunia. Your a prime example of a player who refuses to make honest assessments of what actually happens. The maps that we end up with have not taken allot of effort to make.  Hey map managing dude...add xyz123 village to grid 1,2 about center. Hey map dude, I got this raster image for some roads we made. it goes about grid 1,2.

 

 

With the new maps: This is what we end up using every single time. This is what history has proven THREE TIMES IN:A ROW what is desired.

1. Any player can add roads, villages, markers to an overlay and that overlays can easily be shared with others. An import/export overlay scheme.

2. The base map under the overlays should be one tile per a pixel resolution of just the terrain. This map needs to give an indication of terrain steepness.

 

Other possible benefits.

1. a top down map

2. new terrain map dump month.

[Rathgar 959]

-1

 

Wait untill the new maps are released, my guess is, if they are already making the graphics for the maps, they probably have already thought of a functionality for them, if they really havent thought how to use maps but are developing graphics for them, then all hope is lost.

[Marshlander 188]

An import/export overlay scheme.

This is the only way I could see it work - to give the player the responsibility of using custom, trusted overlays. Provide a button to switch between no overlay and a number of custom overlays.

 

This whole idea with a mapping skill, and walking out the tiles etc defeats the purpose of helping new players and creates a new hurdle.

 

I think the game should perhaps provide the location of the deed you belong to on the map - after all, there must be an agreement between the king and the mayor about that particular plot of land recorded somewhere . This would help community-made maps because the deed location can be pinpointed. It would also help newbies because they know at least where they are if they are at their deed token. They would start out with the starting spawn indicated on their map.

 

Perhaps an option to add a deed marker when you're visiting an allied deed's token would be a good idea.

 

So essentially, the game could provide specific deed token's locations for a dynamic overlay, or you could switch to a number of imported ones.