Freedom griefing

[FlakAttack 21]

However the slaughtering of a whole herd is still wrong in my eyes regardless if they were properly secured or not.

Well, that said, Heart's herd was pretty big and we've had numerous discussions on the forums about people killing off herds that were unfairly large. Not that I approve of what happened, but I can understand the motivation.

[EliasTheCrimson 348]

I agree in part, but I think the griefers will continue to prey on the uninformed, the new players, and the foolish ones.  It doesn't make Wurm a better place.  Until everything that people remotely care about in Wurm is on a deed or otherwise protected by rules, the griefers will pick away at what people value.  

As long as there are two people playing this game there will be "some people" doing stuff that "some other people" (subjectively) considers griefing. To ensure that Rolf does not have to get ruined over a paid GM crew whilst still keeping the Wurm world free and open (and not for instance limiting construction to deeds only), maintaining the current mindset on griefing and simply accepting a small number of these incidents occurring regularly will be necessary. In other words, the small group you speak of will always remain regardless of what Rolf does (and he can still do a lot to reduce it).

Ignorance can neither be coded nor legislated away.

[MasterGeldrin 0]

Ignorance can neither be coded nor legislated away.

Nor can the childish behaviour of said Griefers. However I think the main issue some people have is that if theres a single lapse which causes human error or a flaw in a technical game system, said griefers are jumping at the chance to cause serious harm.

It would not be a problem if the damage caused could be repaired in the same amount of time it took to cause but it doesn't. In some cases it is months of work undone due to a single human error or a technical flaw which only took seconds to undo.

And like it has been said before Wild is there for those who want to slaughter Deed Animals, steal equipment or cause Terrain deformations.

"Deed it or lose it" should not be a catch all excuse for ignoring griefers. Its getting used more and more instead of actually doing investigative work on Griefers.

[Urman 1]

... maintaining the current mindset on griefing and simply accepting a small number of these incidents occurring regularly will be necessary. In other words, the small group you speak of will always remain regardless of what Rolf does (and he can still do a lot to reduce it).

Ignorance can neither be coded nor legislated away.

One hopes that the current mob with their torches has encouraged at least Freedomite to lock something up.  For this reason, I'm fine with the hand-wringing and cries for justice - it raises the issue to people who might be unaware.  Naming names, including victims, might make people understand that it could have been them (on either end of the incident).

[spellcast 983]

for the record.

vehicle mechanics seem to over-ride deed mechanics in any and all cases that i've had time to test.

meaning that if a large cart or boat is set to allow everyone access to the inventory then that over-rides people being prevented from taking items from it. if it is not set to everyone, taking things will be prevented by the deed even if there is no lock, HOWEVER -

if everyone can command a cart or boat, or of the cart or boat is unlocked, then it is possible to remove the vehicle from the deed by driving it off.

there is no game mechanic that prevents animals from being killed on deed at the moment either, so if players have access to your animals it is possible for them to kill said animals.

all of these are known by the GM and dev team, and being looked at but at this time the best method to protect your animals and items is to make sure you take a few simple precautions.

make sure carts and animals are secured from the general population of the server, either in a fenced area or inside a building, and make sure the entrance to said area is locked.

add locks to your large carts (large or small padlocks will work) and ensure that you have managed the settings correctly.

add locks to your boats (boatlock, made on large anvil) ad ensure that you have managed the settings correctly.

[Kadore 926]

No, the real "crux" is that people don't understand that animals belong inside pens with locked fence gates on a deed. The people that quit over these incidents are the people who are unwilling to accept this. Once this group of players has been reduced enough (through conformance or otherwise) the misinformation regarding these rules will hopefully be eradicated from the community.

I'd too love a Freedom where we can all live as careless hippies without a worry in the world but since I have a remotely realistic perception of the world I can see that this will never be the reality unless we had a GM following each player around.

Pray you still have a decent playerbase after all the folks that get griefed quit for whatever reason. The people that have the strong argument that it wasnt locked, it was off deed etc , doesnt make it any better for the person griefed.

I personally have not been griefed but it is a sad state of affairs when an unknown person appears in local you automaticily fire up the air raid siren and lock your deed down ... doesnt really feel like Freedom. how about Wurm San Andreas.

I quoted yours since its a pretty good summary of the other side of the arguement, and I do agree under the current rules its about all you can do, just how it is currently it feeds tons of drama and ruins the game for many

[MasterGeldrin 0]

I agree Kadore, when I first started my deed up and it was relatively quiet (myself, 1 other and a second large village on a certain lake) we were all considerate for each other and welcoming to passerby's.

Now if a stranger comes into local its fingers on the Gatelocks at the ready with a spanish inquisition accompaniment.

I originally wanted a deed that public people could wander around, browse get ideas for their own villages but now I've had to start walling it all off and replacing the ever so buggy wooden palisades with tallstone walls and gatehouses.

Its a sad day that Freedom is being used like Wild purely for the safety of no retribution.

[EliasTheCrimson 348]

That is ridiculous. It's not "against the Freedom feel" to simply demand that players lock their animal pens and keep an eye on their carts, and if you feel the need to show hostility towards passer-bys or "fire air raid sirens" you should seriously consider if you're putting enough effort into protecting your property. A majority of all Freedom players manages to keep their belongings safe and sound without being paranoid. As long as this group remains in majority, "griefing" will never decimate Wurm's player base. If you are outside this group, the game does not have a problem - You do.

The repetitive nature of these arguments makes me feel like "Griefing" is being used as an excuse for laziness. If you want a system that keeps you safe by automagically knowing what belongs to you and what does not, I'm sad to announce that Wurm is not a game for you since it cannot fulfill this request. I, along with many others, have a deed completely open to the public. The difference between your deed and mine is simply that I keep my animals and carts locked away, and I do not keep stuff I cannot afford to lose off-deed. It's as simple as that.

Mind you, banishment to Wild being used as a punishment for committing actions the community dislikes is something I support. I'm all for giving the community more tools to passively police the player base on their own (without adding PvP).

[Farmerbob 369]

Clearly a solution for leading animals on deed needs to be found. Possibly a new game mechanic needs to be introduced that allows the server to differentiate between an animal you just disembarked off on someone else's deed and the deed owner's drag animals that he mindlessly left outside.

My personal (temporary?) solution was a "cart garage" consisting of a combined cart dump/animal pen.

Animal collars

http://wurmonline.com/forum/index.php?topic=38805.msg372482#msg372482

[Tamorlane 381]

You know that your insurance company won't pay you if they find out you left your doors open to the burglar?

Most of the griefing incidents lately has been a direct result of negligence or ignorance on the victim's part. Lock your gates, build on your deed and our current rule set cover 99.9% of all thinkable cases of "griefing". The GMs can't babysit players, at some point every players needs to take responsibility for their own security.

^ This

Good thing that insurance companies (in the U.S. at least) don't have anything to do with the determination of a crime.  That's a function of law enforcement.  I'll never understand why people insist on bringing apples to a discussion about oranges.

[Guest Bellona]

I know everyone is tired of griefing, but why is everyone twisting the obvious (stuff needs to be locked) into a situation where the victim is nowhere near being at fault. Ignorance on the griefer and victim sides are not going to solve this any quicker.

And as said before, real life logic is vastly different than Wurm logic. We will never have an ingame "police force" unless as previously stated, the GMs monitor every character 24/7.

[Urman 1]

I know everyone is tired of griefing, but why is everyone twisting the obvious (stuff needs to be locked) into a situation where the victim is nowhere near being at fault. Ignorance on the griefer and victim sides are not going to solve this any quicker.

[Guest Bellona]

I understand this, but you can't make the whole game turn over a new leaf and have them all on one mindset, it just isn't possible.

And give me one example that I'm trying to defend the griefers, all I have been saying is what should have been done in the first place, lock your stuff.

I'm trying to be as neutral as possible. I'm not for or against either side, both sides are equally at fault. The horses shouldn't have been killed, but AGAIN, things should be locked up. Don't be so quick to point fingers if you are only going to accuse me of defending griefers or repeat incessantly that it should have not happened. YES, I get that it shouldn't have happened. But all we can do now is move on and take care of our things better.

[EliasTheCrimson 348]

Mistakes don't liberate you of responsibility. If I make a mistake, I will face the consequences, as must everyone else. Those requesting a completely safe game experience - even on a no-PVP server - WILL be disappointed at some stage because it is principally impossible.

No one here is defending the actions of griefers, the only things I've seen are people advising other people to take responsibility for the security of their assets.

[vinius 1,498]

And a personal question:  Having read the 20 or so posts you've written on this topic, I do ask why you are so determined to defend, defend, defend, those who would prey on the weak?  What act by one player against another player would you not defend?

[Kadore 926]

And a personal question:  Having read the 20 or so posts you've written on this topic, I do ask why you are so determined to defend, defend, defend, those who would prey on the weak?  What act by one player against another player would you not defend?

Because her player character was in the same settlement as the offenders in the most recent event iirc

[Guest Bellona]

And a personal question:  Having read the 20 or so posts you've written on this topic, I do ask why you are so determined to defend, defend, defend, those who would prey on the weak?  What act by one player against another player would you not defend?

Because her player character was in the same settlement as the offenders in the most recent event iirc

[Kadore 926]

This is Kadore's wife.  Pashka.  So there is no mistake where this is coming from.

And if your going to oppose my opinion by holding this over my head, I see no reason for you to even bother posting. If you can't contribute something meaningful, step out. And that is to all. Just because I lived with him doesn't mean I support what he did. Mature a bit and address this problem realistically.

Bellona or Ava whichever.

You are posting from a PA account.  As such you are inviting such remarks by posting with such vehemence.  You have posted every however many minutes.  This post, as the last one that was locked, was filled with you defending them.  Saying it was all HE's fault.  Yes, they should have remembered to lock the gates.  Forgive me and them for being a human being.  Things happen.  What should not happen is someone with a position of 'higher' standing being so vocal on one side or the other.  You may 'think' that what you are posting has the ring of being neutral.  I do not read it as neutral and I'm imaging many others are not seeing neutral either.  If you do not wish for folks to respond to you, then kindly do not post.  If you do post, then expect others to post.  Just as you will not sway their opinions by your posting, you cannot stop them from posting by saying their posts are needless.  They are no more needless than yours.

As a side note, everyone has an opinion and they are entitled to express them.  I'll let ya know when the law changes on that.

The getting mature needs to happen to many folks.  Might look in the mirror before throwing stones at it.

If folks want to know what is driving folks that pay money for this game out of it.  Now you know.  It won't be the griefers that make me leave the game.  It will be more with attitudes like this that 'think' they are somehow better than the rest of the game.  Trust me you aren't.  There is always someone better in one way or another.  And if you need to feel 'big' in a game I'd personally suggest getting out of the game and seeing what the real world does offer you.  Next time please do not make things personal because that is when all bets are off.

Sorry to all for the rant.

Pashka

[Roach 0]

Long story short, most if not all cases of "freedom griefing" occurred because:

1.) A gate was left unlocked.

2.) An area was undeeded.

It's unfortunate that people are losing their horses and other livestock to "griefers", I'm sure most of us can agree. The unfortunate news I have to share is that, as of yet, it isn't against the rules, and unfair as that may seem, there are many reasons why this is the case.

Millions of you have posted possible "coding changes", with few of you actually having any idea on whether the option is possible, nevermind viable. Coding changes cost Rolf time, which he is already spending either fixing more pressing issues or developing whatever he has planned next. What's more, most of your coding suggestions might help the problem, but at the same time create new ones. It's important to consider the full implications of your "coding miracle cure" for the game.

Millions besides plead and beg the GMs to create some sort of new ruleset, without considering why they wouldn't do that in the first place if they were able to. GMs can't be everywhere at once, and are limited in what kinds of calls they can make. Some previously suggested new rulesets, again, would cause more problems than they would fix. I strongly emphasize you think about your suggestions before you post them, because from what I've seen so far people are just writing down whatever comes to mind and hoping it solves the problem.

These options forsaken to us, it seems that we're left with only one option: that you might have to do something about it yourselves! Forgive me if this sounds accusing or offensive to you. I'm not saying you need to go out and hunt down whoever killed your horses (What would you do, hurl insults at them?  :-\), I'm saying just prevent it from happening in the first place. Deeds exist for a reason and are your best defense. If you can't afford one and don't want to risk being attacked by turrible griefers, join an existing village. If you have fence gates, on or off deed (although off deed fences can be bashed and probably will be), lock them. Plenty- in fact most players in freedom - have already discovered this and have never been griefed. Unfortunately there is always the occasional case where a player makes a looooooooong post describing the details of their particular case and stating how unfair it is, and everyone sighs and points out that their property wasn't deeded/locked/whatever, and that this has been the case for quite some time now, and that it has happened before, and that nothing has changed from two weeks ago when the last griefer hit, and that it's really sad you lost your belongings/horses but really what it comes down to in the end is that you should have properly protected your property.

What can we take away from this?

1.) Deed your property(or join a village), lock your fences.

2.) If you've already been griefed, the best you can do is accept it and prevent it from happening again. See 1.

It's not that we're defending griefers, it's just that the solution is so simple and easy. It might not do the justice you want, but you know, sometimes that's the way things are and it's easier to just accept it and move on. In fact, getting angry about it and making a post on the forums for the griefers to see only makes them happier, and the best way to get back at them is to ignore them and pretend like you don't care.

I would like to take the time to remind you that this is, in the end, just a videogame, and the horses that you are losing aren't real.

I hope the advice I have to offer all of you is helpful. If you have any questions or comments feel free.  ;D

[Maximilus 0]

Not even going to wasted my time anymore

[Maximilus 0]

Same

[Roach 0]

blah, blah blah

...from someone else, a PA, that's in the same village as the bro's, great advise. Not interested in your opinion either.

...tell me who you hang with and I'll tell you who you are....

[KyleBooze 451]

I don't bash fences but once they fall I'll salvage what's there.

I respect other people's space and stuff, because that is how I want to be treated.  It's part of the basic social compact.  We respect other people's stuff out of an understanding of self-interest.

The recourse we have is to name the offenders, let the community shun them, and try to protect ourselves as best we can.  As a society, not only should we lock our doors, we should also drive the thief into the wilderness.

[Boogalah 0]

Now to clarify a bunch of things.

Yes, I did live with Ava. Yes, we still speak on a regular basis. No she does not approve of what we did.

*Maybe* she has a different perspective of this affair because of that, but I sincerely doubt she'd feel any different had we been total strangers.

She has her own opinion. If you can't respect that, then yours shouldn't be acknowledged either.

Also, I find that the only people who are acting immaturely are those who weren't directly involved :/

[Wulfgar 1,132]

Also, I find that the only people who are acting immaturely are those who weren't directly involved :/