Freedom griefing

[spellcast 983]

no, instead there were tons of threads about having nowhere to place a deed because the AoC was insane and the no plant radius even worse.

[Vion 0]

Several days have passed since the most recent events which initiated these threads, and I think we can draw some conclusions.

As no action has been taken against the three individuals who engaged in the outrageous conduct, it is clear that OneTooFree's policy is that sociopathic, delinquent, amoral behavior will be allowed by its customers, regardless of the fact that it damages the value of the Wurm product for all other players, and, much worse,  when this kind of behavior is not met with the firmest of rejections in civilized society, the individuals "learn" the lesson that it is acceptable. I sure hope I don't live in the same real world community as Cooka, Jotoha and Dakilleux, and I sympathize with those who do, because these individuals are now that much more conditioned to behave in a sociopathic manner. (And any of you who think that the experiences gained in an online environment have no influence on one's non-online activity, let me assure you, you are living in a very dangerous and naive dreamworld.)

I hope Rolf feels comfortable with the fact that his lack of a firm policy of no tolerance for this kind of behavior is likely to have negative effects not just to the Wurm community, but to civilized society as a whole.

But, of course, we all know that the operators of an entertainment venue have no history of rejecting sociopathic, delinquent behavior. If you go into a nightclub, and proceed to start spilling the drinks of all the folks around you, no proprietor would dream of tossing you out (after all, there isn't a sign with meter high lettering on the wall saying it is against the rules to deliberately spill other people's drinks). Or if you act similarly in a movie theater, its OK -- its the fault of the other patrons for having an expectation that the other theater goers might choose to confine themselves to morally acceptable behavior.

Indeed, as Bellona so clearly points out, the patrons who allow themselves to be victimized by the sociopaths are morally wrong because...

Actually, Bellona's accusation against Heart is an shocking case of libel. To state another individual is "a guilty party" -- i.e., morally in the wrong -- with absolutely no basis whatsoever is an outrageous, offensive attack on her character, and I'm appalled by the fact that Bellona hasn't been dealt with severely by OneTooFree.

This not to suggest that should OneTooFree, like all other operators of entertainment venues, by adopting and enforcing a no tolerance policy, should, in some way, expect to rehabilitate or fix such individuals; by the same token, no in-game system can either. These are seriously damaged people, and the best thing most of us -- and, especially entertainment venue operators -- can do is make sure we deny them access to an environment where they can exercise their pathological behavior, as such further conditions them to use that behavior. And, while improving the rule set in Wurm does make Wurm a less attractive place for these individuals, one can never, at the level of computer enforced logic, remove all opportunity for unacceptable behavior. OneTooFree tacitly acknowledges this by having GM's -- but these GM's must act. Note, by the way, Dakilleux's attempt at at an apology: he says "I didn't know the consequences of the behavior." Like any delinquent, it should be clear what he will do next -- look for a way to act sociopathically where he won't be exposed to consequences. And he's a smart kid -- he will find such ways. (He also tried to say in his post he didn't know it was wrong -- in fact, while he was in the middle of his destructive escapade he made a very offensive remark which clearly acknowledged he knew what he was doing was morally wrong.)

And for the others of you who choose to discuss this matter as merely some objective analysis of the effectiveness of some computer based rule sets, and fail to see this is an issue about ethics and morals, and how we and OneTooFree should be responding to grievous moral transgressions, I am seriously concerned that your ethical and moral development is far below what is reasonable in a civilized society. To, as several writers have done, in any way, reduce, or even distract the discussion from the central issue of the seriousness and the unacceptability of the behavior of these individuals by minor concerns such as Heart's honest mistake of forgetting to lock her gate demonstrates a serious lack of ethics and morality. Responsible, civilized, ethical, moral people do not tolerate or accept this kind of behavior, nor allow appropriate responses to be mitigated by irrelevant issues. And I can't imagine a more irrelevant issue regarding how we should react to these individuals than the state of Heart's fence gate.

And finally, let us please stop using euphemisms which tend to mask the seriousness of what is really happening. "Griefing" is such a nice 21st century online word -- but it is a euphemism for sociopathic, delinquent, amoral behavior. And to use the euphemism rather that words which clearly, and unequivocally expose the true seriousness of the matter, is to be sticking your head in the sand.

(Oh, and although I shouldn't have to say this, unfortunately I do -- GM's, you have a moral obligation to be sure the text of this post is passed on to Rolf.)

[Protunia 735]

LMAO!! ok did you click I agree to the Terms and Conditions??

[Boogalah 0]

Several days have passed since the most recent events which initiated these threads, and I think we can draw some conclusions.

As no action has been taken against the three individuals who engaged in the outrageous conduct, it is clear that OneTooFree's policy is that sociopathic, delinquent, amoral behavior will be allowed by its customers, regardless of the fact that it damages the value of the Wurm product for all other players, and, much worse,  when this kind of behavior is not met with the firmest of rejections in civilized society, the individuals "learn" the lesson that it is acceptable. I sure hope I don't live in the same real world community as Cooka, Jotoha and Dakilleux, and I sympathize with those who do, because these individuals are now that much more conditioned to behave in a sociopathic manner. (And any of you who think that the experiences gained in an online environment have no influence on one's non-online activity, let me assure you, you are living in a very dangerous and naive dreamworld.)

I hope Rolf feels comfortable with the fact that his lack of a firm policy of no tolerance for this kind of behavior is likely to have negative effects not just to the Wurm community, but to civilized society as a whole.

But, of course, we all know that the operators of an entertainment venue have no history of rejecting sociopathic, delinquent behavior. If you go into a nightclub, and proceed to start spilling the drinks of all the folks around you, no proprietor would dream of tossing you out (after all, there isn't a sign with meter high lettering on the wall saying it is against the rules to deliberately spill other people's drinks). Or if you act similarly in a movie theater, its OK -- its the fault of the other patrons for having an expectation that the other theater goers might choose to confine themselves to morally acceptable behavior.

Indeed, as Bellona so clearly points out, the patrons who allow themselves to be victimized by the sociopaths are morally wrong because...

Actually, Bellona's accusation against Heart is an shocking case of libel. To state another individual is "a guilty party" -- i.e., morally in the wrong -- with absolutely no basis whatsoever is an outrageous, offensive attack on her character, and I'm appalled by the fact that Bellona hasn't been dealt with severely by OneTooFree.

This not to suggest that should OneTooFree, like all other operators of entertainment venues, by adopting and enforcing a no tolerance policy, should, in some way, expect to rehabilitate or fix such individuals; by the same token, no in-game system can either. These are seriously damaged people, and the best thing most of us -- and, especially entertainment venue operators -- can do is make sure we deny them access to an environment where they can exercise their pathological behavior, as such further conditions them to use that behavior. And, while improving the rule set in Wurm does make Wurm a less attractive place for these individuals, one can never, at the level of computer enforced logic, remove all opportunity for unacceptable behavior. OneTooFree tacitly acknowledges this by having GM's -- but these GM's must act. Note, by the way, Dakilleux's attempt at at an apology: he says "I didn't know the consequences of the behavior." Like any delinquent, it should be clear what he will do next -- look for a way to act sociopathically where he won't be exposed to consequences. And he's a smart kid -- he will find such ways. (He also tried to say in his post he didn't know it was wrong -- in fact, while he was in the middle of his destructive escapade he made a very offensive remark which clearly acknowledged he knew what he was doing was morally wrong.)

And for the others of you who choose to discuss this matter as merely some objective analysis of the effectiveness of some computer based rule sets, and fail to see this is an issue about ethics and morals, and how we and OneTooFree should be responding to grievous moral transgressions, I am seriously concerned that your ethical and moral development is far below what is reasonable in a civilized society. To, as several writers have done, in any way, reduce, or even distract the discussion from the central issue of the seriousness and the unacceptability of the behavior of these individuals by minor concerns such as Heart's honest mistake of forgetting to lock her gate demonstrates a serious lack of ethics and morality. Responsible, civilized, ethical, moral people do not tolerate or accept this kind of behavior, nor allow appropriate responses to be mitigated by irrelevant issues. And I can't imagine a more irrelevant issue regarding how we should react to these individuals than the state of Heart's fence gate.

And finally, let us please stop using euphemisms which tend to mask the seriousness of what is really happening. "Griefing" is such a nice 21st century online word -- but it is a euphemism for sociopathic, delinquent, amoral behavior. And to use the euphemism rather that words which clearly, and unequivocally expose the true seriousness of the matter, is to be sticking your head in the sand.

(Oh, and although I shouldn't have to say this, unfortunately I do -- GM's, you have a moral obligation to be sure the text of this post is passed on to Rolf.)

[spellcast 983]

for the record vlon, we as GM's are bound by rules as well. those rules are based on the natural order of the game, namely that if the game mechanics allow it, policing and preventing it becomes extremely hard to do.

while we constantly get more tools to track and deal with this sort of behavior, we are also forced to stop and check with rolf to see if what we are seeing is an intended behavior of the game, or something that is not working as intended.

I understand that the process seems slow to you.

It often seems slow to me personally as well.

we operate on facts, and the fact is that the game mechanics allowed it to happen in this case and that there is no rule against it, making applying a punishment for doing it somewhat arbitrary.

NOW i think that most players would agree that a GM team acting arbitrarily with no solid basis or consistency in action is not to be desired. that is not to say that we arent looking into this, and many other situations, trying to work with rolf to create code changes to prevent future incidents such as this or the one that flakattack referenced with a large cart.

There is also the fact that there is only one paid person on the staff. ROLF.  so testing and investigation gets done when we as GM's have time from our real lives to do so. Pacer has spent most of the past two days looking into horses, thier mechanics, what is and is not possible, and some possible options for "what needs to be changed".

-HOWEVER-

given the fact that rolf is on vacation, the staff (all voulenteer let me remind you) is spread out over 24 time zones and work schedules, and we like to try to discuss possible ramifications of changes we make ahead of time. things do not get changed instantly.

above all we have to strive for a climate of innocent until proven guilty, and we have to write rules that reflect that long term. just like in real life, that means that some people are able to game the system and use that philosohy to get away with things that most rational people consider wrong.

[Maximilus 0]

Second of all, I knew full well the consequences of what I was doing and don't remember saying the contrary.

[Boogalah 0]

Second of all, I knew full well the consequences of what I was doing and don't remember saying the contrary.

...and we still wander why no one even punish you as you just said you did grief on purpose and with all the intent to damage...

above all we have to strive for a climate of innocent until proven guilty, and we have to write rules that reflect that long term. just like in real life, that means that some people are able to game the system and use that philosohy to get away with things that most rational people consider wrong.

[Maximilus 0]

I sincerely doubt that anything I said or anyone on this forums would have any weight on the final decision made towards what happen. I can almost guarantee you that, most probably, nothing will be done to you or the other 2 culprits by the staff due to the many loop holes people like you abuse. The only one getting both sides of the short shaft is Heart, as she lost months of hard work because of you 3 and got bashed here by everyone and their mothers for not locking a frikking gate. We as a community fail to see the big picture. Heart will most probably leave and you all 3 will stay, most probably doing it all over again somewhere else, until everyone leaves and then what?

What I can tell you is that if you, or any of your 2 little friends had just a little bit of remorse on what all of you did, you'll stop behaving like you still do on chat, like nothing ever happen, or like Jotoha yesterday on chat, mostly laughing at the situation. That alone shows the type of person you all are in game and real life as well. If you did know what you did and you still did it, then you don't belong in Freedom, Wild trip is free, why don't you go and play with the boys over there?. I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms. But of course you won't go, because you like it here as the current rule set allows you and your kind to do as you please without the minimal concern to you or the others for your acts.

[Boogalah 0]

I sincerely doubt that anything I said or anyone on this forums would have any weight on the final decision made towards what happen. I can almost guarantee you that, most probably, nothing will be done to you or the other 2 culprits by the staff due to the many loop holes people like you abuse. The only one getting both sides of the short shaft is Heart, as she lost months of hard work because of you 3 and got bashed here by everyone and their mothers for not locking a frikking gate. We as a community fail to see the big picture. Heart will most probably leave and you all 3 will stay, most probably doing it all over again somewhere else, until everyone leaves and then what?

What I can tell you is that if you, or any of your 2 little friends had just a little bit of remorse on what all of you did, you'll stop behaving like you still do on chat, like nothing ever happen, or like Jotoha yesterday on chat, mostly laughing at the situation. That alone shows the type of person you all are in game and real life as well. If you did know what you did and you still did it, then you don't belong in Freedom, Wild trip is free, why don't you go and play with the boys over there?. I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms. But of course you won't go, because you like it here as the current rule set allows you and your kind to do as you please without the minimal concern to you or the others for your acts.

I, personally, feel no remorse, but a tiny bit of empathy.

I understand that you wouldn't take my word for it, but I can assure you that I won't do any act of griefing for as long as I play.

Yes, we joke about it on kchat. People are not content with shunning us and feel it necessary to bring up the subject whenever they can find a witty way to do it. We're simply humoring them.

We won't move to freedom simply because we don't have to. Sorry if that gets in the way of your personal vendetta.

[Xallo 2,599]

We should start sending people to Wild again who disrupt the Freedom community.

[Protunia 735]

We should start sending people to Wild again who disrupt the Freedom community.

[HeartTheEternal 2]

@Protunia

lol! simply lol I'm actually flattered you consider me as someone whose in these "Groups" (I'm assuming your meaning the popular?).  I'm not apart of any group for that matter.

As for the subject at hand, i got a question for anyone whose taken the same or similar actions. IF the Rules from WILD where set on freedom, would you still do it? Just curious.

[Guest prospero]

Some people forget sometimes... they say 'its only a game'.. 'its only pixels'..

True.. but there is also a RL person behind those pixels.. and with todays technology, Digital Enviroment that we all live in and interface with each other, be it over a computer screen, mobile etc.. you can sill upset that person in RL and cause them anguish and upset..

Think of it this way.. youre paying to play this game.. youre investing time and money in achieving your own goals which someone comes along and then in one fell swoop, destroys them.. That time and effort getting to where they were, it cant be got back.. its past.. done..  gone..

Just because the game mechanics allow you do do something why shoud you do it..? no more than IRL allows me to pick up a large iron pipe and bash the hell out of my neighbours car.. Why don't I do this?

Its because in a digital environment or IRL, I know what's right or wrong.. whats morally right and wrong.. I know (having played enough MMO's) to know and understand how fragile someone can be on the other side of that screen youre looking at.. How a small mindless act 'could' have IRL reprocussions and impact.. You just dont know how much the other person is tied into the game..

How do you know that your 'victim' isnt someone confined to a house for whatever reason and their only outlet is communicating and playing with other players on Wurm? You might have now put a stop to that thought your mindless action(s).

(you just dont know and probably will never know)..

Wurm is a MMO thats pushing the boundaries, due to its design and nature.. theres not been a MMO like this out there (as far as I know).. You cannot compare it to any other MMO.. what MMO allows you to create and own your own things, by the 'digital' sweat of your brow, to have something to show for all your hard work..

To anyone.. before you do or think of doing (what the Wurm community at large has deemed a pretty bad action...) think..!!  think of the person behind those pixels..

Regards

Prospero

PCG Village

[Protunia 735]

@Protunia

lol! simply lol I'm actually flattered you consider me as someone whose in these "Groups" (I'm assuming your meaning the popular?).  I'm not apart of any group for that matter.

As for the subject at hand, i got a question for anyone whose taken the same or similar actions. IF the Rules from WILD where set on freedom, would you still do it? Just curious.

[HeartTheEternal 2]

oh i did not mean literately and in general, more like of what happen and having the ability to actually get back at players. Whether it was a gate open or not. you know?

I have a gut feeling the answers from most of these players would be no, unless they can hold their own.

And thanks for the help/offer but at this time like i mention in my, now closed, thread I'm just taking time and seeing whats gonna happen as well. :]

[MasterGeldrin 0]

I know what you mean Heart, if there was any possible chance of retribution from a victim it would be less likely that a griefer would do such a thing, however that would be allowing PVP onto freedom turning it into Wild and you'd be opening a whole new bag of Wurms.

[Elshar 1]

We should start sending people to Wild again who disrupt the Freedom community.

Absolutely. It worked great last time as a major deterrent, and I think they'd be in for a surprise the first time they tried to do something similar to people over there.

[Guest prospero]

Hi Heart..

I've some stock horses / cattle - youre quite welcome to pop down and have a look @ their traits etc..

to help you replenish your stock..

You took me in one evening a while back and gave me a meal (when I so desperately needed one) - a kind gesture

for which I've never forgotten..

Regards

Prospero

PCG Village.

[Farmerbob 369]

@Protunia

lol! simply lol I'm actually flattered you consider me as someone whose in these "Groups" (I'm assuming your meaning the popular?).  I'm not apart of any group for that matter.

As for the subject at hand, i got a question for anyone whose taken the same or similar actions. IF the Rules from WILD where set on freedom, would you still do it? Just curious.

While on Wild I'll grief an enemy or rogue kingdom member in a heartbeat if I get the opportunity.

While on Freedom, I will tweak someone's dirt level in a repairable way, or move stuff around a bit, maybe kill an animal or two on a deed as a "Hey Dummy" stop leaving your stuff unlocked - if it appears as if the person can afford the loss.

*************

Lets follow the K.I.S.S. principle though

Wild is PVP.

Freedom is PVE, but there are too damn many loopholes for griefers to wriggle through.

Griefing is PVP.  When you do something that you know full well is going to make someone else angry, then it's griefing.  Enough occurrences of this behavior should get you sent to BL on Wild.

*************

A solution for animal griefing would be to allow animal collars to indicate ownership.

1) Any animal ondeed with an animal collar belonging to a village members quite simply cannot be removed from the deed or attacked.

2) Any animal ondeed with an animal collar that does not belong to a village member can be attacked or led offdeed by any village member, OR the owner of the collar.

Collars would be useful on Wild too, but with fewer restrictions.  I created a suggestion thread on collars, if you like the idea, take a look at the thread.

[Guest MrConor]

Enough occurrences of this behavior should get you sent to BL on Wild.

BL is already terrible because it's about 10 people led by an idiotic douchebag who drove the kingdom into the ground. Send them to MR instead.

[Maximilus 0]

I, personally, feel no remorse, but a tiny bit of empathy.

I understand that you wouldn't take my word for it, but I can assure you that I won't do any act of griefing for as long as I play.

Yes, we joke about it on kchat. People are not content with shunning us and feel it necessary to bring up the subject whenever they can find a witty way to do it. We're simply humoring them.

We won't move to freedom (Wild) simply because we don't have to. Sorry if that gets in the way of your personal vendetta.

You are already on Freedom, and no, I don't have a Vendetta. I wish I did. I wish I had the power to return the favor, to kill your pixel toon over and over and over, until you quit, but I choose to be on Freedom, those are matters of the Wild Server. I'm not on Wild because I want to have peace, to build and to have a good time without having to worry about every little crook that comes alone to destroy my hard work. I should not even bother with this anymore, but as long as anyone continue to do this kind of acts, over and over, been you or the next guy, and the receiving end just sits there and do nothing or just silently quits, then no viable fix would ever be considered as an unheard problem will have a non existence solution.

The damage to your reputation is already done, I can care less at this point if you stay, you quit or you move to Wild. But out of all 3, you were the only one that basically say anything, were are your "friends" on this? I hope this so call "friends" of yours don't turn their back on you once the cloud settle and you are left holding the "caca" stick.

[Farmerbob 369]

Enough occurrences of this behavior should get you sent to BL on Wild.

BL is already terrible because it's about 10 people led by an idiotic  who drove the kingdom into the ground. Send them to MR instead.

BL also has a much less fettered ability to deal with people who are irritating.  Nom Nom.

[Boogalah 0]

I, personally, feel no remorse, but a tiny bit of empathy.

I understand that you wouldn't take my word for it, but I can assure you that I won't do any act of griefing for as long as I play.

Yes, we joke about it on kchat. People are not content with shunning us and feel it necessary to bring up the subject whenever they can find a witty way to do it. We're simply humoring them.

We won't move to freedom (Wild) simply because we don't have to. Sorry if that gets in the way of your personal vendetta.

You are already on Freedom, and no, I don't have a Vendetta. I wish I did. I wish I had the power to return the favor, to kill your pixel toon over and over and over, until you quit, but I choose to be on Freedom, those are matters of the Wild Server. I'm not on Wild because I want to have peace, to build and to have a good time without having to worry about every little crook that comes alone to destroy my hard work. I should not even bother with this anymore, but as long as anyone continue to do this kind of acts, over and over, been you or the next guy, and the receiving end just sits there and do nothing or just silently quits, then no viable fix would ever be considered as an unheard problem will have a non existence solution.

The damage to your reputation is already done, I can care less at this point if you stay, you quit or you move to Wild. But out of all 3, you were the only one that basically say anything, were are your "friends" on this? I hope this so call "friends" of yours don't turn their back on you once the cloud settle and you are left holding the "caca" stick.

Meant wild. Little lack of attention there. Thanks for correcting me.

Where are my friends on this? They're right where I live. They're not willing to get involved in this forum nonsense.

[Hordern 2,177]

Where are my friends on this? They're right where I live. They're not willing to get involved in this forum nonsense.

[HeartTheEternal 2]

The important thing to realise is that this situation is clearly not desirable on the Freedom server, and as such we need a conversation on how rules and/or game mechanics should be edited to prevent it happening again (although I would suspect that's already in the works too)

I very much hope so too.