Four months later and it looks like not much has changed

[Archaed 2,282]

6 hours ago, Leilue said:

 

 

Yes i understand. here is one. THIS GAME, I found this game in 2015 on a promotion for Xanadu's release That was the ad not social media. Does anyone have steam? does it not pop up a game randomly saying 50% off go bananas. Also what is a conversion?? There is free software that will translate everything down to the very graphics. They will even replace the voice of some unlucky stranger to any influential person flawlessly in any language. (disregarding the family bushiness style website from chat gdp)   a private server has more tech and thought put in a stolen game than this game has for its own. Do they not advertise their private servers here or on those private server finder websites??

 

I can go to google ads, and pay them 600 for an ad to be on youtube within 30 minutes.

 

You know what i see on social media? Read the comments, and this is just recently, you can see as far back as 2010 regarding apparent GM abuse to their PVE players.

 

But there is more. Look at youtube! https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=wurm+online not so great is it. Now look here. This is that game every boy i new in school played on the ibm computers.  https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tibia not saying how long ago..

 

 

I've literally given a new player a months village upkeep just so he can learn the game freely. They have not logged back in after 4 days because their friends would not play this game, with them.  They were having a lot of fun and put more hours in the game then Teeebomb does. Go find another game like this. They've either failed or don't exist. I understand that developers do not want to make the one and done games anymore, that subscription based games are mostly out the door unless they are some AAA title with flashy boy bodies featuring long pink hair. I'll say this openly. I do not care about the item mall store. BUT do not mix a subscription, with inside costs on top of a item mall.  I've watched old players bully new players out of land because they don't like them there anymore or used GM influence to root them out of the game. Independence is one dark dark place. Thank god those people left the team recently.

 

Also this "

Wurm Online is a sandbox MMORPG"

 

 

 

 

Most don't believe it is.

 

 

How is the social media going for you? 

 

Month	Avg. Players	Gain
Last 30 Days	141.9	+1.6
December 2023	140.3	-5.3
November 2023	145.6	-3.2
October 2023	148.8	+16.1

 

 

for those that have businesses, What do you do to bring people in. You advertise?    Those that do not are dying on purpose. But then again. This is a gambling company?

A conversion is someone seeing an ad and clicking on it to play the game. 
 

steam sends out emails to Wishlists when there’s a discount but it doesn’t apply to Wurm only wu. 
 

everything that you mentioned proved my point in regards to the conversion being the issue, the lack of flash and friends not wanting to play the game. YouTube is also more organic than paid media, which is what I imagine you mean when you say advertising.

 

Theres work on the organic side with those weird TikTok’s but they weren’t my style, could be interesting though if it continues. 
 

end of the day wurms never going to be a massive player base, I don’t think anyone expects it to be, but there does need to be a steady stream of new players  that’s likely to be far better grabbed through word of mouth than paid ads in their face 

[Emi 181]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:20 PM, Wilczan said:

I don't remember and don't want to check posts, but I think, someone from staff said at one point that there will be more building possibilities. It's dead or in progress?

 

Also, docks. (I bet that's dead)

Docks would be a pretty good update for the team to focus on probably. I can see it push the game forward again just like bridges and the multistory building extension.

 

Couple other ideas would be taxidermy, glassmaking, more building types (log cabin and such). All of these have been suggested 1000x times already.

 

Also as others mentioned Polling updates would be a wise move, we don't need another cartography skill. 

[Carmichael 688]

3 hours ago, topkos said:

Well, this is a Private Business.

No constitution, or bill of rights apply here.

Also, no one is putting duct tape in our mouth, 

We are free to speak our mind, here, in reddit, twitter, or discord.

They, in the other hand, are free to refuse service to us.

Its called freedom.

 

Sure, but this is where the tracing back goes into play. I'm also pretty sure in regards to, like the staff chat leaks and whatnot, any youtube videos of it were reported by the team or by the company itself. And the discord portion is a no go because the game rules still apply on the wurm online official discord. Reddit I'm unsure of solely because I don't use it. And Twitter is Meh because this game doesn't have enough traction for anyone to remotely care. You'd basically be talking to yourself on Twitter. And as for  the tracing back for example. If x says something against the rules like challenging moderation on their discord, y can ban you both on discord and ingame over what was said in discord. Sometimes, and I've seen it happen personally, where people got bans countless of times and a couple of permanent bans over stuff said in discord. Do I think the rules need a tiny bit more freedom for the players? Of course. But will it happen? Probably not because of how soft the world is today and nobody can actually take, all they can do is give. If that makes any sense... and also I'd say that having any criticism for this small of a team, is really good because it weeds out any b.s. and you as a customer are being straightforward with what you want/dont want/like/dislike. Since as a company, and for just about any company, the customer comes first and "the customer is always right" (with some logic behind it to make it valid) should be a priority. But as you can see for the pvp community... I won't even bother wasting my breath on that side. But yeah I hope you get the point on the bans and stuff. Also what votip said, if you even say something... basically can easily get yourself banned. 

Edited January 11 by Carmichael

[TheTrickster 2,290]

6 hours ago, MrJonnyboy said:

You know how often I hear baseless accusations about GM abuse over the years, yet no one ever provides proof/evidence of such?

There is no way to provide proof without it going poof.  

 

3 hours ago, Votip said:

if i leak the proof, i am gonna get banned immediately

And this, too.

 

 

[TheTrickster 2,290]

5 hours ago, topkos said:

We are free to speak our mind, here, in reddit, twitter, or discord.

They, in the other hand, are free to refuse service to us.

True, but commercially speaking, they should then refund your payment in advance for the service that is now being refused.   When has that happened?

[MrJonnyboy 223]

10 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

There is no way to provide proof without it going poof.  

 

And this, too.

 

 

Yep, because wurm gms have 100% moderation control over every website on the internet. Nothing is stopping any of you from anonymously submitting proof on literally any other website. Again, put up or shut up.

Edited January 11 by MrJonnyboy

[TheTrickster 2,290]

7 hours ago, MrJonnyboy said:

Yep, because wurm gms have 100% moderation control over every website on the internet. Nothing is stopping any of you from anonymously submitting proof on literally any other website. Again, put up or shut up.

Except it isn't accepted as proof without some provenance, so anonymity is actually not possible to maintain.  In the online world, provenance allows backtracking not only for evidentiary purposes, but for identification purposes as well.

 

BTW, there certainly has been plenty of evidence posted in various places.  You have to go looking for it though, because it cannot be referenced here in any way but for the most ephemeral of parthian shots.

 

There is abuse in every system.  Blanket denial that it happens at all in any particular system is willful ignorance.

 

 

[Kohle 99]

For the trove of screenshots that were recently posted to a public cloud drive detailing internal discussions, I'm not aware of anyone who was banned nor anyone who disputed their veracity. This seems to refute the idea that it's "impossible" to present the "put up or shut up" proof requested and also avoid targeted retribution.

[TheTrickster 2,290]

29 minutes ago, Kohle said:

For the trove of screenshots that were recently posted to a public cloud drive detailing internal discussions, I'm not aware of anyone who was banned nor anyone who disputed their veracity. This seems to refute the idea that it's "impossible" to present the "put up or shut up" proof requested and also avoid targeted retribution.

The screenshots were not related to GM abuse, but were internal discussions.  Not the same thing at all.  Also, given the staff terminations, how do know there was no retribution involved?   

 

Also;

2 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

 there certainly has been plenty of evidence posted in various places.  You have to go looking for it though, because it cannot be referenced here in any way but for the most ephemeral of parthian shots.

 

There is abuse in every system.  Blanket denial that it happens at all in any particular system is willful ignorance.

 

[Archaed 2,282]

I have proof, but I can't show you it at all. 

 

Regardless of whether you have proof or not, claims without any ability or willingness to back them up should be treated with all the credibility to proof. I.E. none

[Emoo 4,357]

21 minutes ago, Archaed said:

I have proof, but I can't show you it at all. 

 

Regardless of whether you have proof or not, claims without any ability or willingness to back them up should be treated with all the credibility to proof. I.E. none

Which is why eye witness testimony isn't admissible in courts of law all around the world. 

Oh...wait...

[Archaed 2,282]

12 minutes ago, Emoo said:

Which is why eye witness testimony isn't admissible in courts of law all around the world. 

Oh...wait...

okay you got me in that technical loophole, but eye witness testimony IS proof, none of this is even a statement of what someone did or what happened, it's literally "I cannot tell you what they did because I fear repercussions but this is enough to judge them on" 

[Emoo 4,357]

13 minutes ago, Archaed said:

okay you got me in that technical loophole, but eye witness testimony IS proof, none of this is even a statement of what someone did or what happened, it's literally "I cannot tell you what they did because I fear repercussions but this is enough to judge them on" 

Which means you can't outright dismiss those that have spoken up about their experiences. It's your prerogative to believe them without supporting "evidence" but it's pretty wild to say that they have zero credibility.  

As an Ex GM I can say that there is publicly available stories about bad staff experiences that I 100% believe because I have witnessed or been on the receiving end of the same behavior. 

 

[TheTrickster 2,290]

1 hour ago, Archaed said:

Regardless of whether you have proof or not, claims without any ability or willingness to back them up should be treated with all the credibility to proof. I.E. none

 

Which is why I have generally been saying that abuse/misbehaviour by people in roles of authority occurs wherever there are roles of authority and it is beyond naive to say things like "Every ban was deserved" regardless of the game/community/etc.

Credibility regarding individual incidents needs to be considered - not merely set at "none".  Apart from anything else, an organization that insists that it is perfect in any given particular will not improve in that particular.  

 

46 minutes ago, Archaed said:

it's literally "I cannot tell you what they did because I fear repercussions but this is enough to judge them on" 

 

For me, I would disagree regarding that (but cannot speak for anyone else).  I am merely saying the converse.  A lack of specifics, whether due to paranoia or genuine, well-founded fear of reprisal ("but am I paranoid enough? 🙂)  is not sufficient to judge this organization uniquely free of the otherwise universal misconduct that occurs to some degree in every organization.

 

A while back more than one GM was dismissed over deemed misconduct, and whichever side of that disagreement anybody falls on it is clear that someone in authority did the wrong thing.  So there should be nothing wrong with discussing this in principle.

 

I have actual knowledge of only ONE incident, and saw logs from different sources which agreed, which showed ONE GM apparently bullying and harrassing a player - and the player they had bullied was ultimately banned for life.  I don't know if that GM is still around and I have no idea what happened with the appeal/review (and apparently neither does the banned player).  

Edited January 12 by TheTrickster

[Zundy 99]

I feel like unbanning everyone is kind of "using a sledgehammer to crack a nut" tier. It's assuming that the vast majority of bans were in error, malicious or over extremely minor things. I'm not sure that's actually the case in reality. The only two times I can think of where everyone was unbanned in a community, it was carried out by a disgruntled ex-admin and both times the community exploded and died. One was a space station 13 server that I forget the name of and one was this old Garry's Mod comic community (WHP or something?) and they died a death when it happened. Could people just appeal instead?

[Guvna 110]

On 28/10/2023 at 14:24, Army said:

I think there is a misunderstanding here. The post you quoted was a reply to one of your posts about your impression of [volunteer] staff members replying to announcements, so I was only referring to those.

My wording wasn't ideal there, so to be more accurate again: the majority of the staff team (volunteers) didn't see the last VI post in advance. Announcements are always proofread by project officials though.

 

That's simply not true. While the program isn't officially live yet, it has members already which are actively supported by us. I can't give you any specific details about it at this point though, please wait for the official announcement.

 

I did? In the last VI post I confirmed that they are not cancelled, just postponed for now. Sorry if the wording was unclear.

 

I’ll join wurm tv 

[Carmichael 688]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:11 PM, Emoo said:

Which means you can't outright dismiss those that have spoken up about their experiences. It's your prerogative to believe them without supporting "evidence" but it's pretty wild to say that they have zero credibility.  

As an Ex GM I can say that there is publicly available stories about bad staff experiences that I 100% believe because I have witnessed or been on the receiving end of the same behavior. 

 

This. And let's not forget how frustrated the PvP side gets. Because we know way more mechanics in depth. And for example what should and shouldn't be possible to do. Literally any GM currently does not have that mechanical experience nor probably cares enough to even learn it when it would also benefit them. Some people know this game in and out like the back of their hand. Those that left or got removed from the GM positions that even remotely knew anything about the game, like actually, created a huge gap in the "game knowledge" section. Like Enki, some people will say he's biased, but when in fact he was probably the most unbiased GM that I've ever dealt with (which was a huge issue back then). He's also been around since the beginning of the game as well. 

[Mordraug 2,542]

When the local griefer gets promoted to staff.... 

 

Yeah, those were fun times, specially when the rules suddenly applied again upon KoS'in him "because highway". 

 

It was years ago, maybe things have changed since, but it's really hard for a game to lose that reputation once acquired.

[Ekcin 2,420]

7 hours ago, Mordraug said:

[another story from long, long ago, whether true or not ..]

It was years ago, maybe things have changed since, but it's really hard for a game to lose that reputation once acquired.

I disagree. For one real incident of administrators' and/or developers' misconduct, partiality, or corruption, there are always hundred if not thousand accusations by players, former players, cheaters, griefers, exploiters and abusers about administrators' and/or developers' misconduct, partiality, or corruption, in every game.

 

That is why this thread is so dead boring. It is going nowhere, there is not the least constructive idea or proposal in it. EOD, dixi et salvavi animam meam 😎.

[Nyrhlashir 13]

On 1/10/2024 at 6:18 PM, Carmichael said:

Because according to the rules. It would be considered challenging a moderator. And people don't want to lose years of work because they want to say a GM sucks at their job or did their job wrong. Because people can trace it back with some minor digging or it just doesn't take that much effort. Criticism isn't allowed in Wurm Online if you really look at it because of that rule specifically. Borderline censorship...? I'm only saying this because people have been banned or even temp banned on either the forums or ingame or both.

 

True, happen to me several times and things gotten out of hands. Some GMs and Moderators really have no experience or least have some good social skills, esp roleplaying. I remember asking something few years ago in-game help chat, the chat moderators doesnt know what they are saying or least misunderstanding and when i point out what the problem is, things started to get heat up. Frankly, it doesnt make sense, if they arent well educated.

 

I lost a few friends too, but that isnt going to bring them back! GMs and Chat Moderators need to be more friendly and try to understand the situation before they open their mouth or take actions. Just because they have close friends that been around for many years or could be one of their alts, doesnt mean they can do whatever they please. Seen enough of that ###### already!

[Karrde 344]

On 1/14/2024 at 3:09 AM, Nyrhlashir said:

 

True, happen to me several times and things gotten out of hands. Some GMs and Moderators really have no experience or least have some good social skills, esp roleplaying. I remember asking something few years ago in-game help chat, the chat moderators doesnt know what they are saying or least misunderstanding and when i point out what the problem is, things started to get heat up. Frankly, it doesnt make sense, if they arent well educated.

 

I lost a few friends too, but that isnt going to bring them back! GMs and Chat Moderators need to be more friendly and try to understand the situation before they open their mouth or take actions. Just because they have close friends that been around for many years or could be one of their alts, doesnt mean they can do whatever they please. Seen enough of that ###### already!

 

On that matter. CMs are all volunteers with zero training. Not even an orientation. Best they have is a GM happens to be online and willing to help.

 

The range of player experience can vary wildly, not to mention personalities. Staff is limited by who volunteers.

 

You are lucky if any of them even have any kind of teaching or support experience, which makes a huge difference.

 

Additionally its gotten even worse, as last I heard, CMs can no longer communicate with devs to even ask gameplay questions. Talking about developments and features being worked on is completely shutdown.

 

Unsure if its the same about asking GMs at this point.

 

TLDR: Be easy on the CMs nowadays. They have literally been thrown to the wolves.

 

EDIT: GMs are another story; though, keep them accountable. 🤐

Edited January 16 by Karrde

[Ekcin 2,420]

4 hours ago, Karrde said:

..

TLDR: Be easy on the CMs nowadays. They have literally been thrown to the wolves.

EDIT: GMs are another story; though, keep them accountable. 🤐

Such arrogance, while by a "more moderate" accuser, is stunning. Did you mind that most if not nearly all GM are volunteers, too?

 

As to the frequent complaints, whining, and accusing of GM (and devs), this is an old and boring story from practically all multi user games from the very beginnings (in LP muds, PBEM, DnD, whatever) that mainly losers and PvPers were constantly distributing stories about "corrupt/abusive [devs, admins, GM, game gods, whatever]". Do such things happen? Sure, here and then. Did they happen in Wurm? Possibly, prolly, here and then. Do they warrant the constant whining? Definitely not. 

 

Moreover, minor incidents are constantly blown up to monstrous levels. I recall one case where a member of some PMK cheated using an exploit to intrude an opposing deed. The abuse was obvious and certainly warranted a ban. What was not clear was the extent of complicity - if any - by his fellows. The GM took a wholesale and harsh yet understandable measure blocking the accounts of all ten (iirc) players during investigation pending. Later the nine not proven to be complicit were "released" (after 2 weeks iirc) and only the perpetrator banned.

 

That proceeding may be criticized, also it may legitimately be asked whether there was some compensation for the playtime lost (I am not sure whether there was). Even in RL penal proceedings there is not always compensation when the suspects gave sufficient cause for the suspicion even when proven innocent (or not guilty) of the charges later. And frankly, given the close relationship between small PvP groups I tend to doubt the 100% innocence of the "GM victims". Anyway, it was a minor incident, with a well deserved ban of the "villain" 😎, and some discomfort for his friends under suspicion. Much ado about nearly nothing.

 

But ok, criticizing the GMs is certainly ok, and one may hold different views about the affair. But what followed from the first day of the "arrest" was an outcry in hundreds of postings over years about the blatant cruelty and ruthlessness of the GM.

 

This alone makes me doubt about all the abuse stories. Also the "censorship" claims are rubbish. Forums are sometimes purged when threads go out of control, with the obvious effect and often intent to damage the game, the company, and the staff. This can be observed in the "uncensored" steam forums where butthurt banned cheaters rave in badmouthing and slander. Given the extent of rumouring and outright nonsense in both the aftermath of the "incident" mentioned above as in this thread one can figure what is necessary to be "censored" in these ingame forums. I can say that I am certainly an irascible and not always gentle commenter, towards the staff and company as well as towards others, but only a handful of my writings ever were removed, and in most cases I have to admit for a reason.

 

Especially community members active in PvP should be bit more self critical. Why do complaints about staff misconduct nearly always originate from that part of the community, even in puny cases like the one above?

[Zundy 99]

This isn't a nation though it's a paid service, we're customers. Only in video games do companies do such wild things like mass ban paying customers and then not reimburse them (though they most certainly would have had legal obligation to do so if some players were more savvy on how to approach official complaints). 

 

Regardless of that specific example, don't bother coming into a discussion where customers are giving their grievances and saying "well I think it's fine so shut up" because that's largely irrelevant. I personally am also fine with my experience so far but I damn well would be complaining if the service I was given was terrible in my eyes.

[Karrde 344]

6 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Such arrogance, while by a "more moderate" accuser, is stunning. Did you mind that most if not nearly all GM are volunteers, too?

 

As to the frequent complaints, whining, and accusing of GM (and devs), this is an old and boring story from practically all multi user games from the very beginnings (in LP muds, PBEM, DnD, whatever) that mainly losers and PvPers were constantly distributing stories about "corrupt/abusive [devs, admins, GM, game gods, whatever]". Do such things happen? Sure, here and then. Did they happen in Wurm? Possibly, prolly, here and then. Do they warrant the constant whining? Definitely not. 

 

Moreover, minor incidents are constantly blown up to monstrous levels. I recall one case where a member of some PMK cheated using an exploit to intrude an opposing deed. The abuse was obvious and certainly warranted a ban. What was not clear was the extent of complicity - if any - by his fellows. The GM took a wholesale and harsh yet understandable measure blocking the accounts of all ten (iirc) players during investigation pending. Later the nine not proven to be complicit were "released" (after 2 weeks iirc) and only the perpetrator banned.

 

That proceeding may be criticized, also it may legitimately be asked whether there was some compensation for the playtime lost (I am not sure whether there was). Even in RL penal proceedings there is not always compensation when the suspects gave sufficient cause for the suspicion even when proven innocent (or not guilty) of the charges later. And frankly, given the close relationship between small PvP groups I tend to doubt the 100% innocence of the "GM victims". Anyway, it was a minor incident, with a well deserved ban of the "villain" 😎, and some discomfort for his friends under suspicion. Much ado about nearly nothing.

 

But ok, criticizing the GMs is certainly ok, and one may hold different views about the affair. But what followed from the first day of the "arrest" was an outcry in hundreds of postings over years about the blatant cruelty and ruthlessness of the GM.

 

This alone makes me doubt about all the abuse stories. Also the "censorship" claims are rubbish. Forums are sometimes purged when threads go out of control, with the obvious effect and often intent to damage the game, the company, and the staff. This can be observed in the "uncensored" steam forums where butthurt banned cheaters rave in badmouthing and slander. Given the extent of rumouring and outright nonsense in both the aftermath of the "incident" mentioned above as in this thread one can figure what is necessary to be "censored" in these ingame forums. I can say that I am certainly an irascible and not always gentle commenter, towards the staff and company as well as towards others, but only a handful of my writings ever were removed, and in most cases I have to admit for a reason.

 

Especially community members active in PvP should be bit more self critical. Why do complaints about staff misconduct nearly always originate from that part of the community, even in puny cases like the one above?

 

 

Nah GMs worked up from being CMs, so they knew full well what they were getting into more or less. Plus the CM scene that birthed the current crop of GMs was different many moons ago.

 

Since 2006 playing pvp exclusively until 2016, and ongoing from there... I've seen plenty good GMs, bad GMs, and other staff. I've seen pvp GMs get hounded for little reason, and I've even seen devs abuse their power while doing little work. One person even publicly spitting in Rolf's face after being pardoned for massive gold duping. The pardon was related to them doing dev work, ie Rolf gave them a second chance due to them "contributing".

 

Ever wonder why the sound system is so half-asked? Lets just say that dev left in a very dramatic fashion.

 

Overall I tend to reserve judgement on such matters personally until I've seen/heard fairly definite proof. The person's own conduct can help show their true colors and degree of selfishness.

 

Granted more transparency would be helpful, and I do kind of miss the old systems that Oracle and some old Arch GMs had in place. There was far more experimentation to see what worked too.

Edited January 16 by Karrde

[Ekcin 2,420]

Interesting what you write. But well, you write, prolly correctly

Quote

Nah GMs worked up from being CMs, so they knew full well what they were getting into more or less.

I have not even been a CM nor will ever be. I would dissuade any such offer panickingly knowing my hot temper and bad habits. So I won't ever get a chance to become GM which I would decline equally passionately. I have been in the second and third level support for decades, and was always happy when able to stay away from humans, algorithms are less forgiving but never really injust.

 

And they won't argue with you.

 

 

Edited January 16 by Ekcin