F2P Or P2P?

[yarnevk 257]

 

I suggest more of 'useless' stuff to be added in to shop. Things like special boots/hats/capes/backpacks/anything that would make u look different and MAYBE add 5-10% skillbonuses to certain skills.

 

Useless to you maybe because you give a rats ass about the tailoring skill, but there are many people that are skilling it, and you would essentially make that skill pointless.    In a player driven economy, everything has to be made in game, regardless of you not appreciating certain skills.  You cannot bypass skill by buying things on the shop, since skills are the only game there is in Wurm.

Edited May 12, 2013 by yarnevk

[Ecrir 887]

Useless to you maybe because you give a rats ass about the tailoring skill, but there are many people that are skilling it, and you would essentially make that skill pointless.    In a player driven economy, everything has to be made in game, regardless of you not appreciating certain skills.  You cannot bypass skill by buying things on the shop, since skills are the only game there is in Wurm.

 

Then these item could be skins that have to be applied to actual player made items. Then say that for example the best cloth related skins require ql 90 tailoring so only the best tailors can apply the skins to actual clothing, that way only they can create those items. Then suddenly it's a huge boost to the tailoring skill instead of it becoming useless, all end products are still player made, but the player just needs to buy some ingredients from the shop. This way it also doesn't bypass skill, so I believe this example of adding cosmetics to the cash shop doesn't have any of the issues you mentioned.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Ecrir

[Sarcaticous 338]

Useless to you maybe because you give a rats ass about the tailoring skill, but there are many people that are skilling it, and you would essentially make that skill pointless.    In a player driven economy, everything has to be made in game, regardless of you not appreciating certain skills.  You cannot bypass skill by buying things on the shop, since skills are the only game there is in Wurm.

 

A player made item can be made a requirement for any cash shop item if there's a concern about professions being impacted in a negative way. Every objection about a cash shop isn't thought out to a logical conclusion. A cash shop could enhance the game and any profession in the game. Items could be restricted to servers, skill levels, quality levels, etc.

[atazs 965]

I guess you have not played the game for very long so here's a news flash. WURM has a cash shop. It's called TRADERS. Lots of Pay to Win stuff on them.

Except there is no way to win this game. Those items are there since years and years why are they only brought up now? Oh i get it... because of the price increase you have to argue about something right?

The only item i can see that MIGHT cause some problems is the sleep powder but thats so damn expensive that nobody uses them. Anyway i'd remove traders as a whole, too many people abuse them, too many abused in the past, and too many problems with them. 

Edited May 12, 2013 by atazs

[ReaverKane 363]

Cash shops ruin games. The way it is is fine by me.

You probably haven't been playing online games for a while. You can count by the fingers in your hand the number of subscription games atm.

In fact many subscription games have been revitalized by going cash shop, best example is Dungeons and Dragons, was about to be shut down, but the distributor went (lets give it a go with F2P model), game is cruising just great atm.

GW2 is another good example, great game, great cash shop.

[Aeris 3,764]

GW2 is popular purely because of how easy it is to play though. There is no challenge whatsoever in the game, it's just eyecandy with a linear levelling curve. The ability to buy stuff in the cash shop goes along very well with the theme of the game - Ease of access to everything.

[yarnevk 257]

Then these item could be skins that have to be applied to actual player made items. Then say that for example the best cloth related skins require ql 90 tailoring so only the best tailors can apply the skins to actual clothing, that way only they can create those items. Then suddenly it's a huge boost to the tailoring skill instead of it becoming useless, all end products are still player made, but the player just needs to buy some ingredients from the shop. This way it also doesn't bypass skill, so I believe this example of adding cosmetics to the cash shop doesn't have any of the issues you mentioned.

Cosmetics like different colors, a common choice for cosmetic in other games?  That is what we have dye for, to make things of different colors.    Which is harvested ingredients by players that are skilled in getting these things, some of which are very rare.   Anytime you require 'some ingredients from the shop'  you are replacing a player activity with money.  Wurm is founded on the principle of you can buy silver, and silver is what you buy things with.   If you want to support the game then buy silver and fund the economy by buying stuff in-game.   Anything bought on an web items shop is a one-sided transaction that does not benefit the game economy, whereas anything in the game is a two-sided transaction of the creator and the consumer which benefits the game economy. (excluding kingdom items which could be argued some of those can be on the shop, like trader contracts)

Edited May 12, 2013 by yarnevk

[yarnevk 257]

A player made item can be made a requirement for any cash shop item if there's a concern about professions being impacted in a negative way. Every objection about a cash shop isn't thought out to a logical conclusion. A cash shop could enhance the game and any profession in the game. Items could be restricted to servers, skill levels, quality levels, etc.

We have a cash shop already it sells silver, and players have merchants for selling their goods for silver, which they can turn around and sell for cash.    There is no argument that you can make for putting player made items on the shop without replacing what is already in game.   Your only argument would be ease of purchase, which goes against the design of Wurm.  

 

Yes it is not easy to purchase a player made good because you have to travel to where the merchant is, or hope it is small enough to mail for a service fee and hope you afforded a priest to build you a mail box.    But if you remove the requirement for travel, you really do not need spiders that run up and down highways anymore, for there would be no travellers.   The game becomes like many MMOs actually are where the world does not even exist, since everything is port to instances and buy from shop, there is no need for a real world in-game economy nor for random hostile mobs, to argue for it shows you miss the very point of Wurm.

 

Adding a item shop is not about pay to win because people can already buy their way into the game and even skip skilling buying alts.   This is about keeping Wurm one of the few unique virtual worlds that actually have a player driven economy of exchanged goods and silver, that economy will vanish with a cash based shop because no player can compete with the convenience of web, and moving player transactions onto the web does not solve it, because to be same as the world it would need to support barter, silver and cash. and even if it did the world just as well vanish.  No need for oceans, mountains, deserts and seas as travel difficulty anymore, just instance everyone in their own single player deed playing on the web auction house.  Might as well skip the game if you want to play that way, as  that is called quit your job and go sell on Ebay.

Edited May 12, 2013 by yarnevk

[ReaverKane 363]

GW2 is popular purely because of how easy it is to play though. There is no challenge whatsoever in the game, it's just eyecandy with a linear levelling curve. The ability to buy stuff in the cash shop goes along very well with the theme of the game - Ease of access to everything.

You know that the cash shop only sells cosmetic and some buffs (extra, exp, gold, karma and magic find). There's no ease of access.

If you think there's no challenge in GW2 you clearly haven't played it enough. High level fractals are grueling, Explorer mode in many dungeons, but particularly Arah is very challenging, WvW and SPvP, unlike Wurm's are actually engaging, tactics and skill oriented.

But this isn't about GW2 its about having a cash shop. And if you don't see that Cash Shop IS the payment option of the future, you're in for a surprise.

 

Seriously Yavernek, learn to post stuff in one thing.

 

1- You can have cosmetic stuff that isn't a ease of access, but an alternative. In one of my early topics i described a very simple, yet engaging way of creating this. Unfortunetly i doubt wurm will ever have this, not because its imbalancing, not because its against wurm policy, but because wurm doesn't have an art team with enough importance to be able to duke out cosmetic items with enough regularity to feed a cash shop.

Thing is it could be done simply by adding either:

1-  purchasable recipes (simple stuff like adding rivets to a chain armor to give it a spiky look),

2-  or skins that overlap on items,

3 - or purely cosmetic clothing that would be equipped in separate dedicated slots.

 

These wouldn't replace anything in-game, but simply add new models for the same.

For clarity, here goes some examples:

1- On the cash shop on the website (no trader items), you'd purchase Spiked Chainmail Recipe;

- The item would be sent to your in-game mail, non-tradable, non-dropable;

- Using that item would add 6 recipes to your context menu when smithing chain armor which would correspond to spiked chain jacket, helm, sleeves, gloves, boots and pants.

- Those items would have the same stats and behavior of normal chain armor, just look different.

 

This solution, although more "Wurm-Friendly" would be the less profitable one, since a single player, after purchasing this would be able to craft many armors (unless you code it to be single use, which would make it less wurm-friendly, but more profitable).

 

2- Player would buy from the site "Spiked Chain Armor item;

- Again, non-tradable, etc, would be in your mail, or iventory.

-Using it would spawn  1 Helm, 1 Jacket, 2 Gloves, 2 Sleeves, 2 boots and 1 pants on your inventory.

- These items would weight 0,1 kg, and not be equipable.

- Activating them, and using them on a Chain armor, would change the model and texture of the chain armor, but keeping every other aspect of it.

 

This solution, although less Wurm-Like is still not hard to implement, and would ensure each purchase is for a single set of armor, thus encouraging more purchases.

 

3- Player buys "Spiked Chain Armor set" on the shop

- same as above, you get a package on mail or inv, that upon used gives the same items as above.

- These items would be equipped on a special slot on the paperdoll, and would mask the player's armor, regardless of what he's wearing, it would still show that armor.

- having it equipped gives no defense or other benefits, should not be enchantable either.

 

This gives role playing a bit of an edge, while allowing for people to be properly defended (ie: a priest using Cloth Robe skins, but equipping studded leather or better for defense). Can be penalizing for PvP, because, unlike the previous suggestions, would mask the equipment of the wearer. Maybe a exception could be coded, that these clothes are hidden in combat and switched to normal armor (somewhat like town clothes in GW and other games).

Edited May 12, 2013 by ReaverKane

[yarnevk 257]

Thing is it could be done simply by adding either:

1-  purchasable recipes (simple stuff like adding rivets to a chain armor to give it a spiky look),

2-  or skins that overlap on items,

3 - or purely cosmetic clothing that would be equipped in separate dedicated slots.

 

Every single one of those are things that can be done in game, so the argument still stands.  To add a cash shop of such things destroys a player economy. If you want to add such things to have more things to buy, then simple add these recipes, and skins and clothes to the game and let people make them so you can buy more silver to spend cash on them.  You get the exact same result of more cash spent when you enlarge the economy with more things to make.  

 

Yes even a cosmetic recipe should be something in the game that you only get thru skill and silver purchase of a kingdom item, because you do make it strictly pay 2 win (rather than optional) if that recipe is only on the shop and cannot be bought with silver.  That means the armourer that is entirely self supporting from their craft either has to put money in (or cash out) just to get a new recipe, rather than just selling armour in game then spending those silvers to buy the recipe.   That means the trader that profits from buy low sell high, does not profit from selling this recipe.   In both these cases you are replacing a transaction that benefits two players with a one way shop transaction, the armourer and trader is cut out of the loop when you can just buy a spiked armour recipe on the shop.   You cannot say 'well they can buy it too and resell it', but who in their right mind would give up the easy to use web shop for that in-game transaction?

 

Of course the devs cannot even afford to add the list of things intended for 1.0 yet, so they cannot afford to make more things that you can spend silver on.  By your argument since houses are purely cosmetic, they too should be on a cash shop, but look at the increase to the player economy because of improved cosmetic houses.   Including the need to skill up on new cosmetic floors, and mine new materials that did not exist before.   That would not have happened if the cash shop was there to replace the floor texture with a marble texture because it is just cosmetic after all.  It is certainly arguable that more cash was spent building houses because they was a player economy item, then if it had been shop only upgrades, because some houses was upgraded using game silvers meant more houses was built, which meant more players wanted better houses to keep up with the neighbors, and some of those spent cash.

 

I will continue to quote separate posts as much as it annoys you because it confuses the thread when people quote the entire post and you do not even know which point or even person is being responded to when people quote a multiple quoted post.  Deal with it, as it is not against the rules nor are you a moderator.

Edited May 12, 2013 by yarnevk

[Aeris 3,764]

You know that the cash shop only sells cosmetic and some buffs (extra, exp, gold, karma and magic find). There's no ease of access.

If you think there's no challenge in GW2 you clearly haven't played it enough.

The things written in bold text are exactly the kind of things you look for when playing an MMORPG. How is providing them in a cash shop not giving ease of access to everything?

 

I admittedly didn't stick with GW2 for very long. Guess why? It was too easy, providing no challenge

I don't agree with you, I think that if you have to play a game until you hit the max level minus ten to find a challenge it's not a very challenging game. That's like saying Final Fantasy XIII is a great game because you start to like it after 20 hours of playing. We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one, GW2 to me is just easy eyecandy and no matter how I look at it I can't find any way of making a comparison between GW2 and Wurm fair. They're so completely different in how you play them, you can't justify a cash shop of that kind in Wurm based on a comparion with GW2.

[ReaverKane 363]

 

Yes even a cosmetic recipe should be something in the game that you only get thru skill and silver purchase of a kingdom item, because you do make it strictly pay 2 win (rather than optional) if that recipe is only on the shop and cannot be bought with silver.  That means the armourer that is entirely self supporting from their craft either has to put money in (or cash out) just to get a new recipe, rather than just selling armour in game then spending those silvers to buy the recipe.   That means the trader that profits from buy low sell high, does not profit from selling this recipe.   In both these cases you are replacing a transaction that benefits two players with a one way shop transaction, the armourer and trader is cut out of the loop when you can just buy a spiked armour recipe on the shop.   You cannot say 'well they can buy it too and resell it', but who in their right mind would give up the easy to use web shop for that in-game transaction?

Its not pay to win when it gives no advantage. Its simply you being stubborn and prejudiced, and seriously, i don't care wtf you say, Wurm needs to adapt to a changing market to survive, Archeage is almost out, and there's plenty other sandbox, or sandboxy MMOs planned for release THIS year, most of them F2P. If wurm wants to compete, it needs to improve, and its not being prejudiced or stubborn that will change stuff.

Yes stuff like that could be added in-game, sure having new armor recipes could be done in-game, but that does not add to the revenue of the game.

 

The things written in bold text are exactly the kind of things you look for when playing an MMORPG. How is providing them in a cash shop not giving ease of access to everything?

 

I admittedly didn't stick with GW2 for very long. Guess why? It was too easy, providing no challenge

I don't agree with you, I think that if you have to play a game until you hit the max level minus ten to find a challenge it's not a very challenging game. That's like saying Final Fantasy XIII is a great game because you start to like it after 20 hours of playing. We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one, GW2 to me is just easy eyecandy and no matter how I look at it I can't find any way of making a comparison between GW2 and Wurm fair. They're so completely different in how you play them, you can't justify a cash shop of that kind in Wurm based on a comparion with GW2.

I was never comparing Wurm to GW2, you're the one that started making your utterly biased review of GW2, to which i rebated. You're obviously a Asian Grindfest fan, i'd suggest Kalonline, its crap, but it will take you a month or two to gain a level.

 

My mention to GW2 was an example of how current games are radically shifting from subscription models to cash shop models, and those cash shop models are becoming more and more balanced, an less pay to win.

Cash shop boosts exist to give people who don't have time (cause they work) but have money (cause they work) an edge to compete with people who has time, but no money.

basically those exp and such boosts condense to their duration (1h) what could be achieved on 1h 30m (yeah 50% boost), plus in gw2, like many other games you can obtain those boosts through normal gaming (have dozens of those boosts on my bank that i never used, probably never will).

 

In wurm, that's translated by shaker orbs (replaces one of the main uses of a mag priest), sleep powders, farwalkers, resurection stones, tunning forks, rods of transmutation and magic chests, and of these, many are way more overpowered than any boost.

[Aeris 3,764]

Its simply you being stubborn and prejudiced, and seriously, i don't care wtf you say

 

You're obviously a Asian Grindfest fan, i'd suggest Kalonline, its crap, but it will take you a month or two to gain a level.

Quoted for hilarity

[whykillme 1,621]

Only the current trader items should be for sale for euros, not a single thing more. That only ruins the people owning a trader

[yarnevk 257]

Yes stuff like that could be added in-game, sure having new armor recipes could be done in-game, but that does not add to the revenue of the game.

 

Then you are admitting here that the increased economy created by traders and crafters, that circulating silver means more players means more cash buyers, does not actually work when you say this.   If you are going to be all hostile and wtf in your responses at least keep your arguments straight across threads.

 

You completely ignore that adding cosmetic housing got a lot more people playing for 1.0, some payed silver and some payed cash but it is more cash than the game would have received without cosmetic housing.   We already have an optional 'pay to win' cash shop in that you do not need to grind for silver you can buy it, and to promote a player driven economy you are required to buy things from other players in the game(or their trader/merchant NPC they payed for).  Not everything is about combat, people will seek out a better looking armour and pay more for it despite it being identical in combat.   They will even pay cash for silver to buy it.  

 

But the instant you move that spiked armour form the game to a cash web shop is the day all the armourers might as well quit playing, so instead let them require the skill and buy the recipe for better things that people want to pay for.  Sure when the armourer is using a hired NPC merchant then OK add a buy with cash now button to his shop for easy of use that you do not lose an impulse buy for someone with cash but not silver.   The point is you do it in game so that another player benefits with the receipt of silver.

 

Without this feature of the game the economy suffers because silver cannot circulate amongst players when things are bought on the shop.    Yes if you make new things some will be bought with recirculated silver, some will be bought with purchased silver, but that is still more revenue and likely more revenue than if it had been on a cash shop.

Edited May 12, 2013 by yarnevk

[ReaverKane 363]

Then you are admitting here that the increased economy created by traders and crafters, that circulating silver means more players means more cash buyers, does not actually work when you say this.   If you are going to be all hostile and wtf in your responses at least keep your arguments straight across threads.

 

You completely ignore that adding cosmetic housing got a lot more people playing for 1.0, some payed silver and some payed cash but it is more cash than the game would have received without cosmetic housing.   We already have an optional 'pay to win' cash shop in that you do not need to grind for silver you can buy it, and to promote a player driven economy you are required to buy things from other players in the game(or their trader/merchant NPC they payed for).  Not everything is about combat, people will seek out a better looking armour and pay more for it despite it being identical in combat.   They will even pay cash for silver to buy it.  

 

But the instant you move that spiked armour form the game to a cash web shop is the day all the armourers might as well quit playing, so instead let them require the skill and buy the recipe for better things that people want to pay for.  Sure when the armourer is using a hired NPC merchant then OK add a buy with cash now button to his shop for easy of use that you do not lose an impulse buy for someone with cash but not silver.   The point is you do it in game so that another player benefits with the receipt of silver.

 

Without this feature of the game the economy suffers because silver cannot circulate amongst players when things are bought on the shop.    Yes if you make new things some will be bought with recirculated silver, some will be bought with purchased silver, but that is still more revenue and likely more revenue than if it had been on a cash shop.

I'm starting to think you have some sort of impairment...

Armorer's LOSE NOTHING, BECAUSE THE ARMOR ADDS NOTHING EXCEPT VISUAL EYE CANDY!! And in ALL of my suggestions YOU STILL REQUIRE A ARMORER to either craft the spiked armor, to create the armor the skin is applied to, or to create the armor worn underneath the skin. So i'm really struggling to understand wtf you're all about? Except if you have some sort of disability, then, maybe you need to get someone to assist you in your posts, cause you're making no sense.

 

And no, i am not contradicting myself, this thread is about F2P or P2P, i'm saying i support a F2P with alternate payment options, traders are the one of the current means for F2P alternate payment. So no, i'm actually following the same line of thought throughout all my posts.