Regarding The Price Raise Discussion

[Protunia 735]

I disagree completely the system is flawed and should be looked at in depth and not just brushed under the rug.

If you are going to say you need income to keep the game you running you look at everything that is causing you not to get income.

Regardless if there is coin in game right now that was paid for the game is charging 60% more on May 2nd because it needs more RL money to keep running and cover expenses.

This current in game coin will be used for a long time to avoid buying silver and paying premium from the shop by many players.

What that means is he will see less income soon not more so he really should take a hard look at all systems in game.

Not just raising prices on those that are first coming into the game, pay premium time at the shop, can't afford traders, or refuse to buy traders.

I agree it's been a fun ride to have Traders give money for so long, but because of the problems the game and player base are facing with costs it's time to sacrifice some of that payout to help all players and not just a few players who game the system.

If you are playing for free because of traders and cannot see that something needs to be changed for the good of the game and the player base to help the game continue on and keep more players then you are really not for the game at all, but only for yourself and and what you can get out of this game.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Protunia

[Keldun 335]

Oh and just for the record, to put my position into perspective: I own one public trader and I play for free mostly because of pan loading.

The way I see it: somewhere on the server is one guy with a salary that buys a bunch of ore veins from a trader to make good tools. Somewhere else someone drains that money from the trader and pays me for pan loading to gain the stats to enchant the tools from the guy with the salary. Everyone wins.

Now if Rolf were to disable the traders he wouldn't get more income, simply because we don't have any more money to pay, he would just loose two players.

It might even cause the guy with the salary not to buy more ore, because he wouldn't get his tools enchanted or he would leave all together because he has so few other players to play with.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Keldun

[Kegan 3,926]

I guess everyone wonders why we talk about the traders so much when he did not mention them in the first place. Well even though i have used them to their vast potential to gain as much in-game coins as i can i can also see how they are harming the game. I can not even pretend to know how it would affect the game if you take them out (well the draining part anyway) I just don't know. Will some leave? I guess probably a lot of them would once they get to the point where they have to pay out of pocket again. Will that effect anything? Not really they were not paying any money into the system anyway.

What you will see is less coins being circulated this will have an impact on the f2p guys trying to pay their way up not sure if that will be possible under a system without the trader drains.

i will be here either way i can and will pay out of my pocket if i must but while the trader system is in place i am going to use it like always I guess i will start looking at hoarding coins now in preparation for any changes that might come and pick out a smaller place to move to if need be. All this said i would rather see Rolf change it now so it is all out on the table and we know what is going to happen from this point forward. Lets get it behind us and move on.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Kegan

[Odynn 2,248]

Ok, after tons of like because tons of good peeps already told everything that was needed to be told.

Traders might be a trouble because some use thems to make real money, tho it's your responsibility to buy the coins those people sell if you are unhappy about it, you like the game you support it.

I own 4 traders, and i got my deed upkeep paid this way, i also got many toons and all of thems are premium and paid every month using my credit card and sending some money in the game i like.

The extra cash i get from those traders is used to finance some of my alliance deed where we(alliance community) and I(paying with my traders cash for thems) welcome new people and try to get them started to Wurm

I also bought tools, mats from other players as i help some of my fellow alliance peeps.

I spend 100 € on the game for traders and first deeds - I spend 35 € for my toons per month - I will spend 40 € after the price update (cutting some of my "useless" toons - else i would have to pay 56 €).

So where is the trouble with my traders, why do you want to remove thems when they are helping the community and myself who spent some real cash every now and then on the game.

Something after 9 month of playing close to 400€, )kinda too much when i think about it, maybe time to start real trader draining right peeps ?).

They are others way to get money into the game, maybe it's time to stop that war and start thinking to positive change to the system (and i've already seen some for traders). And more important, waiting for Rolf to say what he think about it once and for all.

[yarnevk 257]

I use the drained silver for these goodies and to help with deed upkeep. So the many times i buy a settlement form with this silver rolf loses nothing and gains more deed income, and has addicted me a little more lol.

Yet another person that does not understand that Rolf makes absolutely no income from in-game activities by any player. He only makes income when premium and silver is purchased form his shop. The silver sinks in the game such as deeds simply remove silver from the game, with deed upkeep a sink that gets resourced thru traders. So when you use this 10-15s in-game to pay for your deed, yet did not purchase this thru the shop, that means the Rolf has lost 10-15e that you would have paid cash for that deed. It is lost income which is why he is having to raise his income 60% to cover his expenses. You do not justify it by saying you paid cash for that trader, because once you earn your money back Rolfs net is zero, and once you continue to use that trader Rolf now has lost income. Yes Rolf got paid my 10-15s when I paid for my deed using cash shop silver, that does not mean that gives you the right to take that silver out of your trader and reuse it to pay for your deed then claim you are supporting the game.

Edited April 20, 2013 by yarnevk

[yarnevk 257]

I own 4 traders, and i got my deed upkeep paid this way, i also got many toons and all of thems are premium and paid every month using my credit card and sending some money in the game i like.

So while the rest of us cannot afford to maintain even 2 deeds because we support the game by paying cash for the monthly upkeep for every tile we use on top of our premium fees. ... you justify it by saying you paid cash for the deeds so Rolf got paid and the real problem is those despicable gold trader. But you are incorrect as Rolf has not gotten paid every month for your deeds, so YOU are the problem that is causing him to raise rates. That deed upkeep is there to supply Rolf with recurring income needed to keep the servers running. 4 large deeds with $5 upkeep is $240 a year that Rolf is not receiving income from, and he has realized that is not enough so now it will cost 60% more or $384 per year. If you say well if I had to pay I would not have these deeds, then why are you entitled to not pay and have these deeds? Your premium payment entitles you only to remove the skill cap on your characters and use horse carts and boats, it does not entitle you to free deed upkeep.

I made no agreement with you that my deed upkeep funds your deed upkeep so that you do not have to pay. It would be different if I contracted you to make some bricks and I agreed to pay you silver to pay your deed upkeep in return, that is the nature of the player based economy is people exchange time creating for silver which is paid for with cash. Rolf does not gain income from the exchange of silver between players, what happens in the game that you paid for that guys deed or that guys bricks is irrelevant to Rolfs bottom line, the Wurm economy has no material impact. He only makes money when you pay cash for all your characters, your purchased silver and your deeds and upkeep. You do not get to have free upkeep just because you paid cash for your characters, he charges that deed upkeep because it means that character is using more server resources.

Edited April 20, 2013 by yarnevk

[yarnevk 257]

i will be here either way i can and will pay out of my pocket if i must but while the trader system is in place i am going to use it like always I guess i will start looking at hoarding coins now in preparation for any changes that might come and pick out a smaller place to move to if need be.

And i appreciate your honesty and forthrightness on this matter, much as it does astound me how much better your game is then mine simply because I (nor you) would never be able to afford your holdings. Of course some will rage quit if trader training is gone, but that is not a bottom line loss because they never was a f2p to p2p conversion candidate that represented future income potential for Rolf. Of course the Wurm economy will reduce in size to that which the players can afford to play, but that also has no material impact on Rolfs bottom line, which has always been what players can afford to pay to play. Of course you will have to reduce your holdings, which has only a positive impact to Rolf because that means paying customer can now invade your dozen of deeds on your private corner of the map, while you can do nothing about it but cringe on your remaining deed.

But there will always be players with more cash than time, and players with more time than cash, that is the very nature of a player based economy which Rolf only gains income from if players buy time and silver from him. So the Wurm economy will survive, and the fact is Rolf will have increase income from a smaller Wurm economy that does not have the hyper-inflation caused by gold sales and recircuilated silver, simply because every f2p players is now a potential p2p candidate, and every that does pay to play is actually paying Rolf.

And it is my opinion that traders are so pervasive that simply converting a small fraction of those into fully paying players even if the rest of them rage quit, will remove the need for a 60% hike on the rest of us, because I suspect may are like you that say you will pay if you have to because you enjoy the game, but will milk it for free for as long as you are allowed just because you can.

And that is why I and others (which includes those who have used traders and understand the damage they cause to the games funding) insist that trader reform be part of the payment hike discussion. It would be best if traders actually stopped outing themselves on the forum, for it enables Rolf once and for all to actually calculate how much lost income this represents, and for him to do the right knee-jerk change that will be good for his biz.

Now if the traders would actually become part of this discussion of admitting it is broken and offering suggestions what can be done about it, then they can contribute to a change they can live with even though it gets them paying for the game if they are willing to stay. Many suggestion have been made, so here is a new one to chew on, keep traders but institute a sales and/or income tax so that Wurm can microtransaction earn directly from the state of the Wurm economy say every 10s exchanged Rolf gets 1e taken from the appropriate accounts. After all are not these threads motivated by this very issue itself, because VAT is a sales tax? I personally prefer my 'traders produce sleep powder advantage for higher skills' idea, but a hyperinflation economy with a sales/income tax would generate a lot more revenue for Rolf because of the recirculation enabling more transactions to occur, but I have no idea how to make a tax work for f2p.

But the point is to get past pretending the traders are good for Wurm and to join with those traders on solutions who now realize they are a large part of the reason for Rolfs revenue shortfalls, and that they need to do more than they have been to support the game before it finds its way into the servers are down forever bit bucket.

Edited April 20, 2013 by yarnevk

[Odynn 2,248]

First of all who told you my deed upkeeps where so high... 1s a month per deed, no templar because like you said i'm not limited in skill and able to take my foes down.

So yes i can pay for those upkeep, right, but i already paid more with the cash i spend on making an agreement with Rolf and the trader he put in the game. and i'm using thems the same way they were intended. My personal deeds are 1s upkeep, so 5s a months. God, with my traders (100€) I already bought 2 years worth of upkeep time.

So you are attacking us trader owner, but do you think that will change anything, how do you think the economy which is trader powered (public or private) will work. Do you think more people will buy more cash from the shop ?

I don't think so, just check how much of you are already buying gold from players and trader drainer instead of buying those coins from the shop when Rolf obviously need more cash.

I see unhappy people going to war because we are using a means we were given to finance our deeds and needs. You want to remove the traders, ok do it, you will remove the only way we have to make some easy cash in the game without high skill. But also remove the dragons, after all Rolf is not making any money with all the drake armor sold for 60/80 € - he can also sells thems from the shop, right ?

Beware of asking too much cash from us, by forcing us to pay more again and again you will only drive us away and kill the game by removing us, player (and there i'm not talking to rolf but to the angry mob trying to remove the player driven economy).

And remember before attacking everyone : some of us are happy to pay for the game, we can always give less money.

[yarnevk 257]

Those paying players gold have already demonstrated they are willing to pay for the game. Remove that gold producing trader from the game, and have no choice but to pay Rolf the same amount of cash, only means that the silver economy in-game reduces in size by the amount the gold was discounted. However the game now improves and more people come to play it because Rolf can now afford continued development, so the economy will not be in as dire straits as traders threaten.

SInce you justify that you paid for the trader with cash from Rolf silver and not player gold, then can we have your assurance that once you have obtained your 50e back from it that you will disband the trader so that the net income loss to Rolf is zero, but he is happy to take your money now and give it back later as it improves his cash flow which is just as important to a biz as income?

Or do we need to have Rolf change the traders so they are a only a short term cash pay with finite long term return? Because once you earn back that 50e can you really stomach coming up with that extra monthly cash for silver to maintain your holdings when you say you are already at your budget limit now? It is irrelevant if your deed upkeep is 1s or 5s or 50s, the point is are you paying cash for your deed upkeep once you earn back your trader fee.

That is the problem with traders is that once you get past making back the initial cash Rolf might have earned (ignoring the fact that many players use trader gold so Rolf does not even get initial cash payment), your trader skills are so much better and you realize how much better it can be if you just add another trader, and keep the old trader going because now any silver gained is pure in-game profit allowing you to expand your game without paying anymore for your game. Then as you continue to expand to the point you starting getting gold coins, you realize you have no way to spend all this gold, you have not time to do so many projects and hire so many people. And then you realize that you can make a quick 100e for that gold that is otherwise just sitting in the bank, you are going to tell me you are not going to do it because you have your principles.....

That is why other traders have come out only after they have learned to game the system such that that payback is earned in as short of time as two months, to say maybe this is not the right thing for them to be doing when Rolf is demanding others pay 60% more, when they can indeed afford to pay to play for all they do in the game and will once Rolf makes them do so.

Edited April 20, 2013 by yarnevk

[Protunia 735]

You want to remove the traders, ok do it, you will remove the only way we have to make some easy cash in the game without high skill.

just check how much of you are already buying gold from players and trader drainer instead of buying those coins from the shop

Exactly....keep talking.

kind of like this within a couple months....http://forum.wurmonl...about-60-euros/

3 sold to Kersha so far

2 sold to Phantasy

1 sold to Acaos

2 sold to Whykillme

1.5 sold to Gatalyn

2.5 sold to Object

1 sold to Visarrian

1 sold to Tailos

1 sold to Freet

2.5 sold to Doom

Edited April 20, 2013 by Protunia

[Odynn 2,248]

Offer us constructive way to start in Wurm in a dying market on the old server where you are amongst high skilled player and without valuables and atractive dragons, but that's not the point, we are here to discuss way of funding the game not trader relative threads, using 100 € on the shop for 100 silvers then you got two options :

• directly use those silvers and buy whatever you need
  
• or take the risk to use those 100 silvers for a trader and a small deed, and play with thems a long time and keep going forward.
  

So are you unhappy because i was clever enough to use a means Rolf offer us to prepare my Wurm experience while paying for the game ?

Anyone can do it - and that raise one question : how much do you like the game to pay for it, or use way to buy silvers cheaper.

If Rolf think he is loosing cash with all those Gold sales he can always remove that right he grant traders drainers, drake farmer and talented crafters. Then everyone will have to pay for theirs silvers from Rolf, no one will find appealing to raise a trader army and everyone can have a share of the servers funds (if they are paying from the start a trader with real cash) and as such helping their own needs.

One trouble in Wurm is that real money is linked to the IG currency, maybe there is one of the point that need to be looked in.

I like the game i spend already too much of my money on it and i will leave the thread, the angry mob and whatever to do what we are all supposed to like : play Wurm

Edit : keeping it nice

Edited April 20, 2013 by Odynn

[Amadee 1,543]

Wow. Just wow. You torch & pitchfork bearers (in particular the 3 individuals who have monopolized 30% of this thread with endless repeats of your "opinion"), by your account Rolf is a brainless idiot who doesn't know his own business. You've actually had the cheek to come right out and say it. lol. Lucky for him he has you to hold his hand and set him straight.

So, since any post that doesn't agree with the gratingly annoying repeats flooding this thread, gets treated to another long repeat of what's been said already, I'm not even going to bother with my opinion on the subject itself nor my reasoning on it.

I just have this to say to Rolfs saviors.

Do you know how many traders are in the game? Rolf does.

Do you know if Rolf keeps any percentage of the coin that goes into the traders monthly? Rolf does. (I see one of you, at least, stated that Rolf said 100% goes back to the traders, where does it say that?)

Do you know exactly how much gets "drained" off the traders each month? Rolf does.

Do you know how many players still pay for their prems & buy silver from the shop monthly and have a trader? Rolf does.

Do you know how many traders in the game are not being drained in the nefarious way you claim? Rolf does.

Do you know the total he's made off selling the traders vs what gets paid out on the traders monthly? Rolf does.

Do you have all the facts at your disposal? Rolf does.

So who is in a better position to know exactly how traders impact the game? You? I'm sure you think so. lol

I have no doubt that if traders are a detriment to the game and/or his income, and if he's losing vast amounts of money (by your accounts), then it will get changed at some point. Your lobbying isn't what's going to change it. Give the man a break. He's not the idiot child you seem to think and he's well aware of your opinions on the subject. In fact he couldn't miss it if he tried. lol You are certainly entitled to your opinions, as are we all, but hijacking and flooding every thread where you get smallest opening is extremely tedious. You're worse than a bulldog with a bone.

And rest assured, if the traders were removed tomorrow, you'll still be paying the increase and everyone will still be spending $X.XX in the shop each month according to what they can afford.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Amadee

[Zuuma 42]

Exactly....keep talking.

kind of like this within a couple months....http://forum.wurmonl...about-60-euros/

= 1750 euros rolf dont see = ~583 players (chars) paying the extra 3 euros soon

Btw, lets look the Release server prem numbers just to see how huge the numbers are:

And with the extra 60%, we would be talking about 2800 euros (~933 players paying the extra 3 euros) not in the bank to help the development of Wurm.

[Protunia 735]

Yeah the price increase should be discussed and all options to help more players afford to play the game as well.

This includes Traders and How they take money from upkeep from other players deeds and pass that upkeep to around.

Reduction in trader payouts and deed upkeep would help more players be able to keep their deeds and play the game once these new price increases come into effect.

I see that as a good thing because I think Wurm needs to keep as many people as possible.

[Kadore 926]

Yeah the price increase should be discussed and all options to help more players afford to play the game as well.

This includes Traders and How they take money from upkeep from other players deeds and pass that upkeep to around.

Reduction in trader payouts and deed upkeep would help more players be able to keep their deeds and play the game once these new price increases come into effect.

I see that as a good thing because I think Wurm needs to keep as many people as possible.

It was discussed, with Rolf and his Accountant, he obviously didn't find it necessary to include you in the meeting.

[Zuuma 42]

Wow. Just wow. You torch & pitchfork bearers (in particular the 3 individuals who have monopolized 30% of this thread with endless repeats of your "opinion"), by your account Rolf is a brainless idiot who doesn't know his own business. You've actually had the cheek to come right out and say it. lol. Lucky for him he has you to hold his hand and set him straight.

So, since any post that doesn't agree with the gratingly annoying repeats flooding this thread, gets treated to another long repeat of what's been said already, I'm not even going to bother with my opinion on the subject itself nor my reasoning on it.

I just have this to say to Rolfs saviors.

Do you know how many traders are in the game? Rolf does.

Do you know if Rolf keeps any percentage of the coin that goes into the traders monthly? Rolf does. (I see one of you, at least, stated that Rolf said 100% goes back to the traders, where does it say that?)

Do you know exactly how much gets "drained" off the traders each month? Rolf does.

Do you know how many players still pay for their prems & buy silver from the shop monthly and have a trader? Rolf does.

Do you know how many traders in the game are not being drained in the nefarious way you claim? Rolf does.

Do you know the total he's made off selling the traders vs what gets paid out on the traders monthly? Rolf does.

Do you have all the facts at your disposal? Rolf does.

So who is in a better position to know exactly how traders impact the game? You? I'm sure you think so. lol

I have no doubt that if traders are a detriment to the game and/or his income, and if he's losing vast amounts of money (by your accounts), then it will get changed at some point. Your lobbying isn't what's going to change it. Give the man a break. He's not the idiot child you seem to think and he's well aware of your opinions on the subject. In fact he couldn't miss it if he tried. lol You are certainly entitled to your opinions, as are we all, but hijacking and flooding every thread where you get smallest opening is extremely tedious. You're worse than a bulldog with a bone.

And rest assured, if the traders were removed tomorrow, you'll still be paying the increase and everyone will still be spending $X.XX in the shop each month according to what they can afford.

And rolf never made mistakes before ... or reversed one change after people started to point the problems, right?

[yarnevk 257]

Yes we are talking about a person who was apparently unaware of EU tax code changes until a week before when his accountant tells him he needs a 60% increase to stay in biz.

We are talking about a person who is oblivious how to verify US players so he does not have to pay VAT for them. Despite using the very same payment processor as a swedish sandbox competitor that charge $14.25 OR 14.25e depending on where the paying player is from, and has been doing so for years to properly pay the VAT.

Rolf cannot possibly know which premium silver deeds paid for in-game came from a traders recirculated server, he does not do any gold coin tracking about who paid what cash for coin that was not from his website. The only way for him to possibly know this is to actually read this thread where traders came out and say they do not pay cash for the game, they use trader silver to fund multiple deeds/alts, and not only did they come out with what they make from the game, they posted all their details in a thread helping others optimize the ratio. Do you think Rolf even knows this thread exists? They sell gold coins giving other players cheaper access to the game, without Rolf seeing any of that money for development, so he should have already taken actions to limit their income.

So not only does Rolf not know how to properly pay his taxes, he also has no clue how to do an accounting of lost income, nor has he made any changes to traders once threads started appearing on how to recoup the initial investment in mere months which is way beyond his original design for the feature.

If he was a businessman then traders would be nothing more than a short term loan vehicle for him, that he takes your money now and returns it with interest and principle over time, say 60s for 60e trader/deed, he agrees to pay you 80s over six months (more or less time depending on your skills at gaming the trader, maybe even more to cover your expenses in dealing with the trader and upkeep), allowing you to buy a replacement trader in-game for a guaranteed return of 20s again in six months (more or less). He most certainly could design the feature to be nothing more than a investment with a maximum payment that is up to your skill to obtain. All these bad traders that cannot hack it and quit before their time was up, that is 20s owed that Rolf now gets to keep. Of course that 20s has no value for him, for he is the creator. It is just the incentive for traders to pay him 60e to get more than they paid for, but not too much more that he fails to earn income from that player.

Because that would be smart business providing him cash flow as every biz needs, even if it cost them cash later. For him to allow someone to make gold coins every month from a a one time 60e investemnt (or 40e for gold coins he never got in the first place) is purely poor business skills. Especially when he knee jerk posts in response to his accountant he needs 60% more from each of us. Well I have news for Rolf 60% more of the zero dollars these trader players have been paying is still zero.

Edited April 20, 2013 by yarnevk

[Merendi 26]

Sorry to burst your Trader envy bubble here yarnevk but:

I own a trader. I pay for 4 or 5 (depending on my mood) premium characters with silver I buy from the shop. I pay for my very large deed with silver I buy from the shop. So do not assume you know everything there is to know about traders and the people who own them.

[ReaverKane 363]

Sorry to burst your Trader envy bubble here yarnevk but:

I own a trader. I pay for 4 or 5 (depending on my mood) premium characters with silver I buy from the shop. I pay for my very large deed with silver I buy from the shop. So do not assume you know everything there is to know about traders and the people who own them.

He actually thinks you can pull gold from traders without owning a dozen of them.

[yarnevk 257]

Sorry to burst your Trader envy bubble here yarnevk but:

I own a trader. I pay for 4 or 5 (depending on my mood) premium characters with silver I buy from the shop. I pay for my very large deed with silver I buy from the shop. So do not assume you know everything there is to know about traders and the people who own them.

I am not presuming, I am quoting the people who outed themselves as paying for any combination of premium, deed upkeep, deeds, traders with player bought gold and/or trader silver and even sold gold; and those same people said the system is broken now that they have figured out how to optimally game it well beyond what is designed for. Considering that post and wiki exists on how to game the trader for maximum benefit to fund your game exists, pardon me if I find you the exception rather than the rule.

However you have not given full disclosure, so I am not yet ready to give you your due for fully paying for your game. What is it you do with your traders silver, and does that cost Rolf lost income.

And Reaver Kane I did not say you make gold with one trader, I said a trader who has posted on this forum has outed himself as having many traders which at least make him montlhy gold and said that is wrong and in the face of a rate increase realizes that needs to change, nor is he the only one that has said so, nor is he an exception having so many traders. And even if you only made silver, if you used it to deprive Rolf of income, does that make it right because it was not gold? The issue is there is no limits to the payout that a trader can make. Rolf could completely change the trader model so it is still a benefit, be it the loan shark model, the casino model, or the free items model, there is a way he could have traders not cost him shop income and give out a limitted controlled payout.

Edited April 20, 2013 by yarnevk

[Merendi 26]

@yarnevk

I use my trader income to purchase 'gifts' for myself. Player made goods. Goods i would not otherwise purchase.

And i promise to ensure (to the best of my ability) that none of this tainted silver ever purchases anything you have made.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Merendi

[yarnevk 257]

I use my trader income to purchase 'gifts' for myself. Player made goods. Goods i would not otherwise purchase.

And i promise to ensure (to the best of my ability) that none of this tainted silver ever purchases anything you have made.

So that means you are buying things in game using trader silver, so that you do not have to pay Rolf for silver. Understood. So how much more than the trader/deed fee have you obtained to pay silver for items that you have not paid Rolf for silver. Everyone has a different level of what is OK for Rolf not to earn, be it selling trader gold, or not buying shop silver because they use trader silver. The issue is has your payout exceeded what you put into the system by a large margin, such that it represent lost income to Rolf. Most people have to break rocks and dig dirt and put in wrist backing time to earn those silvers so beyond recouping your trader fee, what gives you that right to not pay Rolf for silver.

But getting silver to get goodies, over a longer period of time while you paid cash for premium and earned reasonable bonus above what you paid into it is what Rolf designed it for, he just does not realize the extent players have taken it well beyond that limit.

I do not sell any items, I mine and brush animals and garden for my sole pleasure. Ocassionally wipe off my blood while I butcher an animal to eat. So I have no concern that you will ever make any attempt to pay me for my goods using my own upkeep you got from your trader.

Edited April 20, 2013 by yarnevk

[Gimthen 5]

I am not presuming, I am quoting the people who outed themselves as paying for any combination of premium, deed upkeep, deeds, traders with player bought gold and/or trader silver and even sold gold; and those same people said the system is broken now that they have figured out how to optimally game it well beyond what is designed for. Considering that post and wiki exists on how to game the trader for maximum benefit to fund your game exists, pardon me if I find you the exception rather than the rule.

However you have not given full disclosure, so I am not yet ready to give you your due for fully paying for your game. What is it you do with your traders silver, and does that cost Rolf lost income.

And Reaver Kane I did not say you make gold with one trader, I said a trader who has posted on this forum has outed himself as having many traders which at least make him montlhy gold and said that is wrong and in the face of a rate increase realizes that needs to change, nor is he the only one that has said so, nor is he an exception having so many traders. And even if you only made silver, if you used it to deprive Rolf of income, does that make it right because it was not gold? The issue is there is no limits to the payout that a trader can make. Rolf could completely change the trader model so it is still a benefit, be it the loan shark model, the casino model, or the free items model, there is a way he could have traders not cost him shop income and give out a limitted controlled payout.

/start rant

So let me get this right ....

Your whole 'opinion' or what i would call more like 'game/people bashing' is based on a few people that came out who exploit the system of a trader by buying many traders as per your example?

I call that being a person with his horse flaps on .. or otherwise known as being as narrow minded, who is not willing to see what -potentially a majority- other do with the use of a trader(s), in a non explotationary form and as intended by the game maker(s). Afterall, they paid 50s in the first place most probably by purchasing silver -I hope- from the shop.

Just out of curiosity... you seem only to be willing to base on other players 'who outed themselves' ...

- Do you pay premium with Real money (ie. not silver)

- Do you have a trader? if so , where and how do you spend your money you drain?

- if not and you don`t gain income from trader, do you buy form the shop or look at other players on the forum?

I find it rude where you imply misuse by others who you -probably- don't even know and demand that they give you - a mere fellow player and NOT!!!!! god- full disclosure as to how they play there game ... Might be worth to call it a day ... get some sleep.. try to relax and take a big breather... maybe then constructive words might appear in future posts rather than game bashing!

Ps. basic rule of purchase: if you like you buy it... if you don`t like .. don`t buy (or in games: move to another one)

/end rant.

[yarnevk 257]

I have already disclosed what I have paid for my game play. Every deed, every alt premium, every deed expansion, every redeed, and even spending coin for the few spendy items like pendulum and tuning fork I needed came from the $520 for six months I have paid this game to Rolf thru the game shop. But nice try at trying to discredit me and those few who have come forward with the trader problems they have personally exploited for themselves as if they are representing an abusive minority, when the wiki and the forum contains their posts telling the new player this is how to avoid paying shop silver in Wurm by using the trader, and telling them that it is plain stupid to be breaking rocks for mere silvers given how much can be profited so quickly.

If you truly think the majority of traders are public places which players use for convenience to trade goods with each other offline with the owner leaving the kings silver in the trader for the good of the public, then I have no clue what game you playing but I will have whatever it is you are smoking because that has to be some good wemp. But any trader that does do so is welcome to come forth for my applause, and if I am on your server I will be sure to come by with some of Rolfs silver. That trader really only exists at spawn and would be a very rare find elsewhere in the game (and usually the spawn ones have complaints of no coin having been recently drained by the owner).

Edited April 20, 2013 by yarnevk

[Merendi 26]

So that means you are buying things in game using trader silver, so that you do not have to pay Rolf for silver. Understood. ....

Actually, it seems you do not understand. You must have missed the part where i said "Goods i would not otherwise purchase". Or maybe i need to explain that means that Rolf is not missing out on silver from me because i would be going without these goods if i did not have trader silver with which to purchase them.

Which also means I am doing my part to help the in-game Wurm economy, and given that many of the larger games actually employ economists to ensure the health of their economy, you would have to agree that is a very important aspect of any game, let alone one that depends almost exclusively on player made items?

And as far as public traders that you believe "only exists at spawn"...i know of at least two others in Independence and one on Deliverance that are totally public and i do not get out much so i am almost postive there are many i do not know about.