A Comment On Joining The Pristine/release Servers With The Other Servers

[Kiddo 27]

Since I'm also playing on Pristine and this decision could potentially affect me too, I would like to state my point of view too.

Opposed to most of the other people that talked here, I'm a totally new player (character created on April 1st) and I'm aware that because of my lack of experience and only a mediocre IQ I may say a lot of dumb things. Still please don't start throwing tomatoes - it's just one more point of view, from a totally new player perspective (a perspective which I noticed is kinda missing from this thread).

From what I see things, my sensation is that at this moment there are a few people (can't say an exact number - but probably less than 20-30) who really make a profit out of this close market (those people that "invested" time and money to rush to high levels in their professions) charging prices which are most of the time more than double than those from other servers. And for these people a merge now or in the close future would be a disaster since it will change their close market which they monopolize with a free market where they will be at disadvantage. Not to mention that they will no longer be the "VIPs" of the world.

Other than them, there are other people, also crafters, but not the top ones, which will neither benefit or suffer from the two clusters merge - yes, they will no longer have a market for their 20-30-40 QL fares, but on the other hand they will be able to buy anything much easier, so things will be somehow fair for them - win some, lose some.

And finally, the newbies like me, will greatly benefit from the merge - we are not able to sell anything neither here or there (except brute force work, which pretty much has similar prices on both clusters), but we would get everything at half (or even lower) prices so we would certainly rejoice such a decision.

So, from a pure economical point of view - a few people (the hardcore players) will loose big time, some people ("middle class") will neither loose or win and some people ("lower class") will definitely win; so, looking at numbers, with the risk to upset some veterans, I would say that joining the servers would kinda make sense even in close future.

But the economic factor is not the only factor involved. There are other advantages and disadvantages too (to give just a few examples - a positive one: we would be able to interact with friends from other servers [for example I found quite a few great people on forums, whom I would love to live with, but this will mean to leave my character and deed behind] / a negative one: quite a few people from the old servers, with tons of cash, may be attracted of our lands so any remaining good spots would be taken). Again lots of pluses and minuses, but, at the end of the day, I think they would somehow be in the balance.

The only real problem with joining the two servers right now or in the close future is that some people made some plans and it will not be nice to ruin their plans all of a sudden (I know I would hate if this would happen to me). That's why I think the merge decision should be taken now, but not applied immediately, but just announced (with a clear date) so everyone could adjust their plans (fix their skills, clear their stocks, get that deed they spotted, or whatever else they want). And probably an interval of like three months would be more than enough for this, as long as everyone would know when this will happen and will have time to adjust their strategy, or just enjoy their last few months as the "kings of the island".

Finally: a in-game vote on the two islands would be really cool since this way everyone (or maybe even premium players?) could say their point of view - because 90% of the casual players will never even hear of this thread, not mention come here and state their points of view - and we'll end up with only the views of a small minority, which doesn't necessarily also represent the views of the majority.

Just my 2 cents...

Cheers,

Alex

Edited April 16, 2013 by Kiddo

[Kegan 3,926]

It is crazy the prices they are charging for casts and boats but as far as the land grab this would be very low most of the land grabbers are the people using traders and have already set up over there anyway. What it would do is open up a huge market for people to buy and sell stuff. The last month alone i spent like 40s on bricks and mortar and still need a ton more and this is just one person. A lot of the older established players pick and choose what to do with their time and i like building but hate making bulk goods so i choose to buy them all and make my money on other things. Sure that same market will be over there too but a merge would only add more to it and not take away much..IMO

Edited April 16, 2013 by Kegan

[Pollo 146]

The only people who want to delay for as long as possible are the people who are trying to protect their monopolies.

Joining the servers would generally help new players and prevent confusion on how they can get wherever.

That said, I dont have any true care if they combine, and stick with what I have said before. If the new servers want to stay seperate, make it forever. And if populations should ever tank or circumstances change, remember there are consequences because forever is forever.

[Kegan 3,926]

Well i want my character off the new servers IF he keeps them separate permanently. I started on the new server with him saying they would be merged one day and expecting to be able to get my characters over to my main deed one day. Even if it is a one time /transfer thing will work for me but other then that i don't care either really.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Kegan

[Protunia 735]

There are no monopolies and as you can see by looking at the forums more players are making better stuff every week and selling them on the forums.

A few trade skills have less players doing them like ship building, chain, weapon smithing, but that was always the case in a new server, because people are generally lazy and want more without putting in the effort, time, or work to get it.

Yes there should be a Warning to all NEW PLAYERS that these servers have lower QL stuff and the players are not as advanced as the other servers and it WIll Be Harder and more costly to live there.

Nothing any different than when Indy started btw boat prices are higher and casts are higher because of the newer priests and the demand for them.

The Trader Payout is much higher still than the other servers and the coin is flowing more easily thus prices are a little higher on most things, but you can get most tools for about the same prices indy had a year or so ago from 50-70 qlty.

And sure Merging anytime soon would make it much easier for those players who are just starting out in Wurm and do not want to work harder or are casual players and do not like roughing it as much or a tougher market place.

But maybe those types players should have had a warning and gone to one the easier servers and more established servers instead?

[Kiddo 27]

And sure Merging anytime soon would make it much easier for those players who are just starting out in Wurm and do not want to work harder or are casual players and do not like roughing it as much or a tougher market place.

But maybe those types players should have had a warning and gone to one the easier servers and more established servers instead?

Edited April 16, 2013 by Kiddo

[Protunia 735]

Yes, but we didn't had this warning... if we would had in the first place probably many of us would have been chosen differently.

So while you, veterans, did actually made an informed choose, the most of us, truly new players (not just new on this server) didn't had this luxury.

And it's not about laziness, it's just that some of us are just casual players - we put maybe one-two hours per day in the game and are only willing to invest a few silvers now and then. For us joining the rest of the servers would probably represent a huge benefit.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Protunia

[Hussars 511]

Oh yes I feel this should be done every year or so with the same kind of PR and stuff we had going into this.

Its obvious its helped Wurm overall and has added population across the board to all servers.

Sure you have some deed alts expiring and some accounts of players who moved, but the numbers do not lie.

We were at 3.5k and now at about 5.5k I'd say that's a pretty sizable improvement.

Yay, graphs...

So Lets look at your specific subset of the total number you posted (and for those who don't know, that is the count for Premium Accounts across All servers he posted)

So Release:

Shows what, roughly 20% drop from peak, at Feb/Mar?

Pristine:

Again, roughly 20% since peak in Jan, had a nice upswing there, but then drops again.

Finally, the rest of the server stats (with numbers shown since it also shows a rather steady decline:

So sure, nice spikes across the board, but it didn't solve the biggest problem. Customer Retention.

As you add silo'd servers, you silo customers, which in turn leads to discussions/arguments/etc... such as this one. Sure you bring in more people temporarily, however lets look at the numbers again this time next year.

The other factor to this, as you increase server count, hosting services, support, etc..., with a declining player base, your spend value per customer increases (means that each person spending has to spend more to simply maintain your current income levels) Eventually, you need to either consolidate your servers to reduce operational costs, or find a new way to keep the incoming spikes going.

Short term, you gain new customers, but if you cannot fix the retention problem, Long term you eventually run into a deminishing return just adding servers.

As shown in, I believe, every one of the threads about the servers joining, there are people trying to point this out.

For those who would like to look at the numbers themselves: http://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Server_graphs

Currently Pristine has a slight hit in deeds, Release is stable(ish), but both are too new to tell if that is simply from folks "land grabbing", but considering there are roughly 1 deed per 2 permium players on both, it'll be fun to watch the servers normalize.

But now.. lets talk in game numbers.. the market value:

Release

Roughly 10 gold with roughly 460 Premium players (0.21g a person)
/>http://freedom002.game.wurmonline.com:8082/mrtg/economy.html

Pristine:

Roughly 12.2 gold with roughly 550 premium players (0.22g a person)
/>http://freedom002.game.wurmonline.com:8081/mrtg/economy.html

Indy (Several years older then the other two servers)

Roughly 70 Gold with roughly 1230 Premium players (0.57g a person)
/>http://freedom001.game.wurmonline.com/mrtg/economy.html

This includes value of items/coin in banks, storage, upkeep, merchants/vendors, etc...

Not making a point with the market values, just including it so the numbers are in the open.

[Protunia 735]

And how much of those graphs are alt deeds?

A bunch.

You are never going to retain 100% period, but as you know in wurm to set up many traders which some have you need alt deeds.

You also have people who protected their area's with alt deeds around them.

You also have people who let prem expire from accounts on old deeds and old servers.

In other words alot of the increase was not just new players, but alts for deeds and people having two or more accounts moving to the new servers.

So of course you would see a drop off as these type of accounts expire.

But the fact remains there are still 2,000 more premium accounts.

More than a 50% increase for sure from what we did have even with those dropped accounts.

SO in the end the game made more money and it did work which is why it will work everytime we have this type of new island come, even on the old servers it does the same thing, but lower numbers.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Protunia

[Acaos 100]

The prices people are charging for boats isn't crazy at all, that's pretty darn close to what they were going for on inde all those years ago.

If you wanted your toons together on one server, why start one of those on a new cluster where the timeframe of them being together is unknown?

If someone wanted access to 90+QL items easily, why start on a new cluster where no-one has those skills yet?

I agree that a one time command to /transfer to inde cluster could be added and that player keep their inventory.

I am really enjoying myself on a fresh server where a great majority of us are equal. There is a growing economy where prices haven't settled yet, a good population here and afaik no unique is dead yet. We had a try at a green dragon and failed, but that's something we as a server need to work on. Getting a plate smith sourced out, a weponsmith for 70QL wepons so that a priest can cast dragons demise etc. then the task of finding Fo healers. It's going to be a good piece of work and effort for us to be able to have another crack at it, but that is what it should be like, the server coming together to achieve a goal. True community spirit where we aren't taking the easy road and roll over these guys with our highly enchanted and high QL items.

[Kiddo 27]

You've known for awhile now and have made 3 characters as well as made and bought more than 3 deeds and sold deeds.

You're basically playing a pity party now.

Sorry , but you've been there enough to know to make another guy somewhere else if that was an issue.

I try to never discuss personal cases, but general principles that apply to a lot of people. Everything I said was about new / casual players versus experienced / veteran players and not between Kiddo vs Protunia or Kiddo vs anyone else.

But, if you decided to bring my specific case on discussion, I will answer you (but it's a one time thing - I don't think that's the place to discuss personal cases - so I won't answer to personal examples the second time):

1. I invested my first money in the game (becoming premium) the very first hour I start playing the game (this can be confirmed by people at the academy who knew me from day one or, if possible, by any official having access to this info).

2. I left the academy and bought my first deed (already a 20+ silver investment by that time) in my first three days in the game (again same people can confirm - they helped me with this).

3. I started my second premium character and bought my main deed (the biggest investment of mine) after less than two weeks in the game (again, can be proved by the founding dates of the first settlement and mayor change of the second).

By that time my only posts on forum were on Pristine / Release sections and one or two questions on the newbie forum.

I just didn't know the differences between the servers. I only learned it when that mine problem raised and I got to see the difference between the spell casting prices. By that time I had already invested more than 80 euros in the game, which for a casual player like me, far from being rich, it was the most I was willing to invest in the game; from this point forward I set myself a maximum investment of 14 euros per month (20 silver) which should include my premium account and my deed(s) maintenance.

I would give away the time spent on my characters and I would migrate to another character to start over again. But i simply can't afford it.

If you can find someone willing to give me the money spent on the deeds (nothing extra - just the cost to plant each of them in the first place) I would also give away the characters to those persons and just move to the main servers and start over again. That could be the ultimate proof that I didn't knew the difference when I joined this server and when I spent my money on it.

Now I don't *demand* for a server merge. I don't even ask for it. But, given the choice to vote or state my point of view, I am for it, since it will benefit not only me personal, but all players like me (casual, newbie players).

Just my 2 cents...

Edited April 16, 2013 by Kiddo

[Protunia 735]

And then you went ahead and made more deeds anyways just the other day....

In other words you knew about this costs for casting yet still made more deeds.

That's not someone who's trying to get out of a server at all.

You simply want a merger to benefit your case which I can understand and I said it would mainly help casual types of players who want things easier and cheaper.

I do not want a merger any time soon because I know how hard many people have worked and the money and time they have invested to get where they are right now and that's barely close to average on the old servers.

So I will fight to never have them connected or it take a very very long time for the many many players who came

( and are still coming ) to the new servers knowing what they were/are getting into and were willing to put in the effort to be better than other players.

Those players have invested more in some cases than many of the old server players have in years within a couple months and should be given ample time to grow their characters and yes have the advantages they have worked and paid to have on the new servers.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Protunia

[Suntzu 644]

-1 Please link them now, we want those dragons.

[Protunia 735]

-1 Please link them now, we want those dragons.

sshhh.. get over here and work for it like the rest of us.

[Hula_Girl 266]

-1link them now

[Pollo 146]

-1 Please link them now, we want those dragons.

Yes, it is the dragons that are the going to cause issues. Rolf has said (and the conditions may change) that the merge will not happen until 1 or most of the dragons has been killed. Someone already mentioned that all of the dragons are already accounted for and AFAIK none have been killed. Those dragons (particularly females) potentially represent about 100 times the total value of anything else Pristine/Release can make (that is a guess but you know what I mean). There have been too many threads against a few people abusing dragon control in the past.

IMO, until Rolf can figure out a way to either have the dragons get smart enough to rampage out of confinement, or just kill them off, then the server clusters can not be merged. The value of controlled dragons is stupidly out of whack with the rest of the game and the dragons, more than anything else on the new servers, represent disruption.

[Hussars 511]

[...]

So I will fight to never have them connected or it take a very very long time for the many many players who came

( and are still coming ) to the new servers knowing what they were/are getting into and were willing to put in the effort to be better than other players.

Those players have invested more in some cases than many of the old server players have in years within a couple months and should be given ample time to grow their characters and yes have the advantages they have worked and paid to have on the new servers.

I'll assume you mean paid for by way of effort to make in-game coin to pay for those advantages rather than paying into the euro/silver exchange.

Otherwise, you don't see a conflict between those two points?

"Working for" versus "paying for"?

Especially when those same folks who did pay for advantages by way of Sleep Bonus, which is why it is such a good seller for Rolf [which he has even made public comment on at event(s)] are the people selling coin as well as items to the others on the server, with as you specifically claimed, little to no competition?

I'm not saying anyone should be penalized, their "wealth" or skills stripped from them. I'm not saying the new servers are the only place this happens.

I'm saying using an argument that equates to a player's ability to generate real world money in a game to slow down advancement/changes because of how it impacts their epeen or their euro/dollar/yen/etc... earning potential is short sighted.

As folks like to point out, this is not Eve or Second Life, we've corrupted a system used to make the game a bit friendlier, and to generate revenue for the game into a source of conflict. And we're not even talking about the problem directly, just by way of how it is impacted by other mechanics/decisions.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Hussars

[Protunia 735]

They are together both in Wurm working and paying for.

People BUY land without working for it the same way.

Others Buy Sleep bonus either from referals ( which I bought many from new players ) or sleep powder.

All games have systems which give players advantages if they choose to use them.

Some people choose not to use CoC at all, while others pay to have the best they can get.

That's paying for skilling too nothing different just not wrapped the same.

Same with people who choose not to make bricks because the skilling sucks and pay some new player to do it while they are getting more skills doing something better.

There are many ways in Wurm people get ahead of other players.

The New server is flowing with cash right now from new players, old players, and from the shop.

I see no conflict at all btw that many people including me have worked for the coin we have on the new server and used it to our skills instead of other things.

Some people choose to not work harder, spend money or time and be relaxed and just play along with the game.

Complaining that someone helps fund the game, or a new player while getting a little more skill in doing so and Trying to Wrap all those who skilled for endless hours a day 10 12 14 hours or more in some cases for weeks as somehow cheating the system is pretty low.

Pretty much you are not going to get any of what you are talking about changed so you either learn to use it as part of the game or deal with it.

Anyhow now your off on some tangent against people who work harder, pay money into the game and play to win pretty much.

You might actually like the new servers and the way things are so come on over and work hard and get involved.

Cya good bye! I am done with your topic of people playing & paying too much into the game are cheating somehow.

This IS WURM it's been this way for a long time and you know what I like it because I have the option to actually choose to be better then other players with both my money and my time.

I think I have 45-50 days or so played on my new guys in the last 4 months.

That is more why I have higher skills than anything else.

[14:34:57] You have played 46 days, 16 hours and 57 minutes.

That averages out to about what 8-9 hours a day, 7 days a week, just on that one guy?

Edited April 16, 2013 by Protunia

[Hussars 511]

Again, I'm not knocking the folks who have invested time or even money to get where they are.

I'm not trying to get the merchant/supply/crafter systems changed that everyone has access to even if they don't have the funds to do so.

I'm saying limited this server "cluster's" connection to the rest of the freedom cluster because what appears to be less than 1% of the players/premium accounts control the majority of the market share and don't want competition is just plain senseless.

You don't want the servers joined, fine.

You want to protect the local economy. Also fine.

But trying to constantly redirect the conversation, which unfortauntely I supported by further discussion of your points and thus helped continue the redirect, does not mean you or I am right.

These are our opinions. That's it.

Neither of us speaks for the intent of the dev team OR the majority of the player base. We speak for ourselves, and to claim anything beyond that is just pride.

I hope I've shown, I have no vested interest in the server joining or not. My interest in the topic is on the longer term issues of like customer retention and overall improvements to in-game systems (which includes the game wide economy).

Where I have increased issue is with Rolf stating that he is likely to add more land mass to that server "cluster" before the older, larger cluster. So this DOES impact everyone, no matter how much you may try to deny it, and goes beyond the immediate concerns of a limited number of players in-game wallet's gold value.

I don't want to restart my character, but that does not mean I don't want to see new servers outside of screen shots/videos. To explore the lands that are added and the content the players who choose to live there create. If that is the tact to be taken, seperate them all.

Each Isle as it's own disconnected server, starting with Pristine and Release, since they were both added for "new player experience". Then expand out in reverse order of servers added. So folks have time to move to the server they prefer and know which server is next.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Hussars

[Protunia 735]

Ok you're back on this mythical few players who controls the market.....I think you are guessing and making a lot of assumptions.

I think Rolf is right to add more islands where ever he chooses and where ever they are needed when that time comes.

You are not missing out on anything really because it's the same game, same stuff, etc only a different level of players.

So yes it's back to what you or I or anyone else thinks is better for Wurm vs. what Rolf sees in the numbers and what he chooses to do that will help the game grow faster and add more income to make the game better in the long run.

[alaskanbob 225]

Ok you're back on this mythical few players who controls the market.....I think you are guessing and making a lot of assumptions.

You have to admit that there are people who switched over specifically with the intent on cornering a market. I would indeed say that there are a few "mythical" players who control a majority of the new servers market. Didn't you yourself say you went on a jc spree just so you could make statuettes to run back to the starter area to drain the trader? Most of the new kids probably don't know that they can get back some of the money they spent but some people used that to their advantage. What about the people who are only working on one skill? Your telling me the guy who has 90+ blacksmithing doesn't control the market for high end blacksmithing tools?

Rolf's going to do whatever the heck he wants but in the end the entire argument is going to come back to dragons.

[Hussars 511]

For giggles,

Since the discussion keeps coming back to market protection.

Average value per item on the server as defined by the game, not players, iron value:

Indy - approx: 2.16s/item (71g [709.6mil iron]/3.289mil items)

Pristine - aprrox: 1.24s/item (12.5g [124.7mil iron]/703.8k items)

source: Server Graphs (included in case anyone is interested in looking at how their server falls in-line with the two "major" [non-Epic] discussion points.)

So if the concern is market value protections, when these two values normalize within 10%, could we merge then? Using the uniques allows for those really wanting to game the system to simply pen them and just ensure the ratio is never met.

Using the value of actual market goods, which the drake sets would impact, allows for a more neutral market assesment.

[Maedhros 13]

Just connect all servers into a single one, having it seperated by "Kingdoms" whatever PVP or PVE it's a damn sandbox game!

You could just simply travel wherever you want to, maybe being just restricted by premium/wild areas etc. why can't we just ride an horse and go to a diferent kingdom?

This would mean a single/2 huge main continentes as home server/cluster for PVP and PVE being surounded by islands. PVP and PVE would remain as it is now as the existing rules for each. its up to you and your choices, where you go settle and your game style.

One thing i enjoy in Wurm is the world itself, the chances it gives to explore and travel, i really don't care about the market thing, you realy have to pay for an item anyway whatever it costs if you want the bloody item. otherwise you are able to make your own stuff and you're fine with it. YOU CAN SURVIVE without 99+ql items and you can still play Wum after all. It's all a matter of skill and knowledge, the better you are the faster you can/ higher chances to survive into the wilderness.

Nice Thread.

Cheers

[Protunia 735]

You have to admit that there are people who switched over specifically with the intent on cornering a market. I would indeed say that there are a few "mythical" players who control a majority of the new servers market. Didn't you yourself say you went on a jc spree just so you could make statuettes to run back to the starter area to drain the trader? Most of the new kids probably don't know that they can get back some of the money they spent but some people used that to their advantage. What about the people who are only working on one skill? Your telling me the guy who has 90+ blacksmithing doesn't control the market for high end blacksmithing tools?

Rolf's going to do whatever the heck he wants but in the end the entire argument is going to come back to dragons.

Traders are a huge part of the new servers atm..

Pristines traders were being drained for days before I finally found Silver (dec 18th ) and did my JSing thing for 4-5 days, but because I played 18 hours or so a day for a few days I did manage to pass em and drain a fair amount. Pristine and Release also has players with many multiple traders as well making much coin a month. I try to tell people that is their best investment in the new servers. Release was the big money winner for some more so than Pristine.

Pristine is still giving at least 2x indy from traders and Release last I was told more like 3x or so.

So if you want to know where the money is?? its in the traders and the players who buy them.

More than a few of the players who were leading the pack in a couple key skills have dropped out since the server opened..weaponsmiths seem to fall hard....chainsmith went down...leather....some people have taken their places and are doing well right now getting their skills up.

The guy making 85 ql tools sold his account as well as the priest that was casting on them....

As for The Dragons...They will go when the skills are there to make 70 weapons and casting is better, simple as that, pretty much it shouldn't be much longer after those things happen the weaker one will more than likely go down.

I predict pretty soon that should happen.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Protunia

[Emane 158]

Yes, it is the dragons that are the going to cause issues. Rolf has said (and the conditions may change) that the merge will not happen until 1 or most of the dragons has been killed. Someone already mentioned that all of the dragons are already accounted for and AFAIK none have been killed. Those dragons (particularly females) potentially represent about 100 times the total value of anything else Pristine/Release can make (that is a guess but you know what I mean). There have been too many threads against a few people abusing dragon control in the past.

IMO, until Rolf can figure out a way to either have the dragons get smart enough to rampage out of confinement, or just kill them off, then the server clusters can not be merged. The value of controlled dragons is stupidly out of whack with the rest of the game and the dragons, more than anything else on the new servers, represent disruption.

Nothing to do with dragons..in the live dev chat Rolf stated it would be a long time before they were connected...and that it was highly likely that there would be more servers connected to the new cluster prior to it being connected to the other release servers...since new servers have been introduced historically at about 1 per year...one I think can assume that it will therefore be a very long time yet before they are attched...

[21:13] <@Wossoo> What are the plans regarding joinging Pristine and Release to older freedom servers and if this would happen, when?

[21:14] <&Rolf> there is no ETA and it's more probable that we add new servers to those islands before rejoining

Entire chat at http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/75201-live-developer-qa-session-in-irc-thu-14th-feb-1330-1530-cet/