Competition on a PvE server

[Sidrat 1]

Had an interesting conversation in game last night with someone who believed that we are not competing against each other and that everyone plays Wurm on the PvE server to create the most beautiful world that we can.

I disagreed on principle that people are actually quite selfish and want the best quality and highest income than anyone else so they, and they alone, can call themselves top dog.

Can both statements be true?

Why do you play on the PvE server?  Is there as much competition as I feel there is or at least should be, while of course aiding each other to increase the minimum quotient?

The same gentleman said he had top quality vein of all resources but only allow the top grade miners to extract from it and actively exclude 'noobs', or new players as I am having only signed up just over two weeks ago.  I felt this is rather elitist and strange because you don't get told the quality until you reach a rather high level so new players coming across iron for example mine it, so they can try to make armour just to survive.

Is that not agreeing with my statement that we play to be the best before and above any one else?

[Xallo 2,599]

The same gentleman said he had top quality vein of all resources but only allow the top grade miners to extract from it and actively exclude 'noobs', or new players as I am having only signed up just over two weeks ago.  I felt this is rather elitist and strange because you don't get told the quality until you reach a rather high level so new players coming across iron for example mine it, so they can try to make armour just to survive.

Is that not agreeing with my statement that we play to be the best before and above any one else?

If you're in the same village or whatever as the guy, I don't believe it's elitist at all if someone wants to protect an utmost vein. Utmost veins are fairly rare, and having a noob with 10 mining skill mine it out is a waste of resource, especially if there's only 1000 actions left on it. 1000 may seem like a lot, but that's not enough to hold down a full time CAS or Blacksmith. It's better off for the village/community as a whole if that vein is left for 90+ miners to tackle, as they can get the best out of the vein before it's depleted. I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem with everyone mining off a normal or good quality vein as they aren't rare at all.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

Aye, it is perfectly normal to reserve rare high quality veins for only highly skilled miners, as said it would be a waste of a limited rare resource to let it get mined out quickly when 20-60 quality veins are commonplace and work just as well for less skilled miners just as well (since they are capped by their skill).

My first mine took me forever to get an iron vein (had to clear over 70 tiles) and to my shock, it was exhausted only a week or two later. With my luck, it was probably one of those high Q veins, and I regret now not leveling up my prospecting earlier to check the quality before mining it with my limited skill.

[Sidrat 1]

Fair enough, high quality veins are rare, so this IS economic PvP on a PvE server.  No we are not in the same village/community.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

Its not a matter of economic PVP, its like using your only Q90 log to light your oven, instead of saving it to improve your best wood carpentry tools. Very poor planning and use of materials even if you are the only person on the deed.

[zalifear 186]

I find that your "statement" Makes no sence. A mining has and always will be about QL. If you start off you find a 99.99Ql iron and you need Iron your gonna mine it no mater what. Now as you progress thru this world Ql becomes life here. Then you yourself start to realize that you have found more iron and wish to seperate the ql now and mine from each as you need and use it.

To conclude, each player plays fortheir own reason and I myself play for power and fame, investing my own time and money to make something that sets me apart from anyone else and make my own name that will last in history of Wurm itself. Competition can be held in the eyes on one person and not another.

E.g My neighbour had a lagre deed and worked hard to build it and all by himself. I had moved and was looking for a new spot ( my old deed had been sold for 2 gold) and This "guy" ( I wont name) said hey the land next to me is free. Upon arriving I had showen picture of my own deed and from the pictures he knew I was a large builder. A few weeks went by and I made fast progress. I tried to expand only to find he had 50+ perimiter tiles. At this point I offer to pay for a small resize on his behalf ( only 10 tiles was needed) and most of that resize was in the water and he wasnt gonna use it. He refused and we got into a bit of a scrap over it. He said " I dont wanna compete" I assumed my deed was looking better perhaps. He said: " I dont build fast" meaning what my building fast was wrong? He liked to maul things over he said. So in the final parts of this scrap he said: " I dont wanna get emotional" And as awell we shouldnt over a game. I was a bit emotional over the fact he wouldnt move ten tiles for a neighbour he invited to move in and I said a few thing: "Ill move you was here fist and so forth" Upon these words he said: " Ill take a vacation" He took off and Iv only seen him 2-3 since and his massive deed lays empty now for over 1 year! It was such bother to move remove ten tile ( which I was gonna pay for) that he left and didnt come back.

So in my great spirit I continued building and it grew to this, http://exilecommunity.com I always thought he would return but, thinking of it now, I personaly think he didnt return, for 2 reasons: A. my deed looked better and it was some sort of competition in his eyes and B. pride. Although he kept paying for a deed he hasnt played on in 1 year + now. Looking back wouldnt it have been better to have sold ten tiles, instead of wasting a years worth of money on an unused deed.

So idk about hoarding top ql iron, being competitive but, at many lvls there are Wurms who strive to make their name known and rise to the top, while creating a beautiful world. There are also ppl who could care less and are happy in there own little world.

Wurm: "a fair mediocrity"

Zalifear creator of Exile's gate

[zalifear 186]

PS always remeber Wurm is a wild open world and what you find you can claim, like gold in a mountain of a free country. Put hard work in and find the material and it's yours if you can protect it. QL plays a huge roll in this game and many ppl wouldnt want 50 skill miners mining their 90 QL ore ad thats mostly outta not wanting to waste not greed or hoarding.

[Hydragyrum 4]

While your specific example regarding ore veins was answered, you do bring up an important topic: Player vs. Player competition in a PvE setting (what I call PvEvP).

Things like competing over land tiles, uniques, highways, canals, etc. are all very much player vs. player competitions. They just aren't combat competitions, and so aren't PvP in the traditional sense. But don't be mistaken, the Freedom Isles can be very competitive. Escalate the in-game competition into the forums and you have the forum game, which I'll admit I've fallen victim to.

Sometimes, I think the Freedom Isles are in fact more competitive than wild simply because we cannot settle matters by the sword. A little dispute can be dragged on and escalated far beyond the original problem; a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Urman 1]

So in my great spirit I continued building and it grew to this, http://exilecommunity.com I always thought he would return but, thinking of it now, I personaly think he didnt return, for 2 reasons: A. my deed looked better and it was some sort of competition in his eyes and B. pride. Although he kept paying for a deed he hasnt played on in 1 year + now. Looking back wouldnt it have been better to have sold ten tiles, instead of wasting a years worth of money on an unused deed.

[Alyeska 2,621]

Sometimes, I think the Freedom Isles are in fact more competitive than wild simply because we cannot settle matters by the sword. A little dispute can be dragged on and escalated far beyond the original problem; a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Daash 183]

I can certainly understand the point that he didnt want someones place to close if it didnt look nice and the player put alot of effort into making a nice deed. If i had to log in every day and the first thing a saw was a crooked wooden house i would go crazy (not saying it was crooked in this case, just an example). And if the playet that got there first had a deed with 50 tiles in perimiter it tells me one thing, he/she wanted to be alone in that spot and if you come there after that deed are planted you have to repect that.

Then on the other hand i am part of a community that from the get go have set the standards high when it comes to how the deeds/area looks. So i am kind of partial in this case.

And i suspect that this is a player that have said no from get go to change perimiter and the second part have nagged the first player about it. The thing is if someone says no, then its no. You have to respect that as well.

[zalifear 186]

Did the neighbor win, by holding out on the tiles in question, or did Zalifear win, by hounding him from the game? 

My example was to point out that there was no hounding at all, I found out I needed 10 tiles to included my docks, which was miles from his and he said he was going on vacation by the end of the perhaps 20 min convo. In all regaurds I wasnt competing at all, I just wanted my docks safe on deed.

I think he saw me as competition and judged me right away. His deed is beautiful and I had complimented him serveral times on it. He made the choice to make a mountain out of a mole hill like Hydragyrum said.

And i suspect that this is a player that have said no from get go to change perimiter and the second part have nagged the first player about it. The thing is if someone says no, then its no. You have to respect that as well.

Id just like to remind you that he invited me there. He did say no, he said he had reserver and paid for those tiles. Now where the real problem lays I think is: in the deeding system, he bought that huge perm to protect land on the west side which meant he had to perm the front aswell which left a silce of land that neither of us would even use. As far as nagging, there wasnt anyone to nag, he left right after the 1st convo about it and never returned to play. I seen him once and he passed thru and said "the place looks great" and that was it. The convo about this lasted all of 20 mins and he had said: "I dont wanna compete" I just wanted a few tiles to protect my docks. So he saw me as competition, I was just building my own little world.

To conclude: This player was an old player from JKH and I would have never thought he would get this upset or even leave that long. But I think in this case, he seen my deed was unfolding to be very nice indeed, he didnt come back at all, and that just proves he was competing, becuase There's no other reason not to come back, when I just stayed and setteled with what I had and continued on my merry way. Like I said in good spirit, I always wanted to reach out and ask him why but, never knew how, after such along time. And for everyone that reads this, I'd like to say, It kinda hurt me more in the long run, for the fact that he was actually a good guy. If there was no competition he shoulda noticed I setteled for what I had and returned to play and relax. So not coming back must mean there was more to it, in his eyes.

So the ultimate answer to this thread is, Wurm in all ways is competitive but, it's only how humble you are and how much you wanna compete.

PS and ofc I won Urman, becuase I setteled for what I had the next day, he carries this with him still to this day, paying for a huge deed that he no longer enjoys.

[Urman 1]

To the OP:  I think it's a sandbox game and, at least on the PvE side, there is no organized method of keeping score.  So everyone works with their own challenges and goals.  (Some people can't play that way, and go elsewhere.)

The game A Tale in the Desert actually was set up to encourage competition and conflict, but in Wurm, it's more incidental.  There is no defined standard of beauty, for example.  I like to build rustic settlements that fit within the terrain, and I generally despise tall stone walls and palisades.  Some people love them.  Neither is right, and neither is wrong.

For a real world example of the competition, look at (non-pro) running or swimming.  There are people who work out at these sports, go to competitions, but in the end, they are competing with themselves, setting goals, scoring wins in their own lives.  In a crowd of marathoners, 99.5% are not competing with the Kenyan superstar who is out front - they are competing with themselves.  They aren't pro, they don't have unlimited funds or time, they squeeze in workouts before and after a job, and compare this run with the last.  And so it is in Wurm.

[Sidrat 1]

Thanks everyone for the replies great thread with your input.

I do have some queries with game mechanics though as I am a self confessed noob and thus should not be used against me.

My mining skill is 19.21 as I write (might go up, too dark to see out side), the description reads 'A vein of pure iron emerges here.'  which to me means it COULD be a rare high quality vein that I should sell for as many silvers as I can get or I should google and research the definition but don't see the point when it could be included in the description in the first place e.g 'A vein of pure iron emerges here.  Maximum quality is expected to be xx'  That would not be hard to do, yet isn't included.

On a second but important note, I should confess I have lost this PvP encounter in that I wanted to subscribe and deed a prime real estate of excellent view, (different thread) but don't really want to subscribe today and wait for a week or more before the buildings crumbled, so in some ways, Rolf wins and the non subscriber loses out on extra game play facets - in fewer but more important ways the game mechanics don't seem to support the IDEA of upgrading.  Granted some f2p games go the other way and push it down your throat before you've even signed in then drown you in pop up messages about 2x advancement.  I don't want that.

I just want to play the game in the area I am accustomed to (but still get lost in), with a deed in my name and then start learning what the abbreviations mean.

Forum warfare is the only resort players have on the P.E.P server which makes player reputation more valuable than silvers.

[ago 470]

My mining skill is 19.21 as I write (might go up, too dark to see out side), the description reads 'A vein of pure iron emerges here.'  which to me means it COULD be a rare high quality vein that I should sell for as many silvers as I can get or I should google and research the definition but don't see the point when it could be included in the description in the first place e.g 'A vein of pure iron emerges here.  Maximum quality is expected to be xx'  That would not be hard to do, yet isn't included.

It's called prospecting. At the beginning you can only see the type (iron, silver...). At 20 prospecting skill you can see a rough indication on the quality (bad, normal, good, very good, utmost) and at 60 you can also see roughly how many ore is remaining (0-100, 100-1000, 1000-3000, 3000-5000, 5000+)

[inaccurate_material 0]

Here's a nice way to get your prospecting skill up:

1. Bind prospecting to a key, press F1 to open console

bind x prospect

2. Find some bare rock surface, or if you're a hardcore mofo, you can do it inside a cave on the walls. Bare rock gives faster skill ups.

3. Run around hitting your bound prospecting key on the rock tiles until you want to eat babies

start seeing something more interesting than "this is rock"

And like that other guy told you, utmost vein is the holy grail. If you find one and you want to profit of it later, mark it with something so other noob miners know to ignore it. It's good to have a high skill miner mining high ql veins. Rather than yourself picking at them at 12 mining while thinking it will give you ore higher than your current skill level.

[Sidrat 1]

bind x mine_forward   but I understand now thank you.

How much trust should there be between neighbours, and do long term players work together to create a cohesive area turning disparate deeds in to a large village/town?

Still early days on Deli of course, but some areas are looking top notch!

[Othob Rithol 700]

Yes, as people get to know each other they form tighter communities but all success begins with a respect for each other's private little corner. Sometimes disputes blow up over a stretch of land, personality conflicts etc but those are the exception even if they get the most attention. It is not at all uncommon for a "community" to span multiple deeds and blanket an entire area. You might want to seriously consider getting to know the groups around you and joining up with one. You might find out that the three neighbors you like are all part of a deed across a bay or right next to you.

[Kyrmius 194]

Had an interesting conversation in game last night with someone who believed that we are not competing against each other and that everyone plays Wurm on the PvE server to create the most beautiful world that we can.

I disagreed on principle that people are actually quite selfish and want the best quality and highest income than anyone else so they, and they alone, can call themselves top dog.

Can both statements be true?

Why do you play on the PvE server?  Is there as much competition as I feel there is or at least should be, while of course aiding each other to increase the minimum quotient?

The same gentleman said he had top quality vein of all resources but only allow the top grade miners to extract from it and actively exclude 'noobs', or new players as I am having only signed up just over two weeks ago.  I felt this is rather elitist and strange because you don't get told the quality until you reach a rather high level so new players coming across iron for example mine it, so they can try to make armour just to survive.

Is that not agreeing with my statement that we play to be the best before and above any one else?

You're not going to like my opinion on this subject.

I find competition or a "competitive playstyle" on PvE servers in MMOs to be offensive. All competition is offensive to me.

I find competition to be nothing more than a carefully disguised form of basic Predatory behavior. Most activities in real life are in essence just predatory behaviors designed to serve the aggressor by obtaining substance, resources, etc., from members of their own species or elsewhere. I will not discuss money and making money... that is an irritating subject in itself, and is one of the most aggressive and rude forms of predatory behavior displayed between ourselves in real life. I consider predatory behavior between members of same species to be parasitical and cannibalistic, and as such I consider most competitive activities to be offensive.

I do not strive to make money ingame, I care nothing for it. I consider the pursuit of wealth to be evil. I am not ingame to "best" anyone. I play to enjoy the virtual world of Wurm, which I feel is absolutely amazing. I feel no need to be the "Top Dog" ingame. I try my best to get along well with my neighbors.

I also do not trust most people in real life or in a game like Wurm... for they are Human and have proven themselves to be Predators. Predators can never be trusted. So if I seem at times distant or unfriendly, it's nothing personal. It's how I see the world.

Imho... and it counts for almost nothing because I disagree with 99.99% of the rest of my species.....

"Competitive Gameplay" is best played out on Wild, the PvP server. Just my guess.

[Mystecore 0]

[Sidrat 1]

You're not going to like my opinion on this subject.

I find competition or a "competitive playstyle" on PvE servers in MMOs to be offensive. All competition is offensive to me.

I find competition to be nothing more than a carefully disguised form of basic Predatory behavior. Most activities in real life are in essence just predatory behaviors designed to serve the aggressor by obtaining substance, resources, etc., from members of their own species or elsewhere. I will not discuss money and making money... that is an irritating subject in itself, and is one of the most aggressive and rude forms of predatory behavior displayed between ourselves in real life. I consider predatory behavior between members of same species to be parasitical and cannibalistic, and as such I consider most competitive activities to be offensive.

I do not strive to make money ingame, I care nothing for it. I consider the pursuit of wealth to be evil. I am not ingame to "best" anyone. I play to enjoy the virtual world of Wurm, which I feel is absolutely amazing. I feel no need to be the "Top Dog" ingame. I try my best to get along well with my neighbors.

I also do not trust most people in real life or in a game like Wurm... for they are Human and have proven themselves to be Predators. Predators can never be trusted. So if I seem at times distant or unfriendly, it's nothing personal. It's how I see the world.

Imho... and it counts for almost nothing because I disagree with 99.99% of the rest of my species.....

"Competitive Gameplay" is best played out on Wild, the PvP server. Just my guess.

I don't think I believe even half of what you wrote.

In fact the only thing I agree with you on is the comment "I play to enjoy the virtual world of Wurm, which I feel is absolutely amazing."

We all do, unless someone is being forced to log in and play the game but that's probably rare, perhaps a husband/partner just to have an easy life.

However by playing the game, by having fun you are using resources that should belong to someone else.  Probably me, but I'll defer it.  The fact that you're taking up tiles and possibly a nice scenic view means you're a fully invested in the competitive nature of both the game and your instincts.

Perhaps it's a most intelligent troll post in the history of the internet.

[Kyrmius 194]

I don't think I believe even half of what you wrote.

In fact the only thing I agree with you on is the comment "I play to enjoy the virtual world of Wurm, which I feel is absolutely amazing."

We all do, unless someone is being forced to log in and play the game but that's probably rare, perhaps a husband/partner just to have an easy life.

However by playing the game, by having fun you are using resources that should belong to someone else.  Probably me, but I'll defer it. The fact that you're taking up tiles and possibly a nice scenic view means you're a fully invested in the competitive nature of both the game and your instincts.

Perhaps it's a most intelligent troll post in the history of the internet.

A troll?

Not hardly. I was completely serious in my post, more serious and honest than I should have been. I am going to get hammered for it too, you and Mystacore are only the first of many.

I believe every word I typed. Whether you believe it is your decision.

As for the part...

However by playing the game, by having fun you are using resources that should belong to someone else.  Probably me, but I'll defer it. The fact that you're taking up tiles and possibly a nice scenic view means you're a fully invested in the competitive nature of both the game and your instincts.

YOUR resources? Hmm now that is competitive.

If you are referring to the land immediately south of my deed... uphill from it... that is the neighborhood project. When complete the doors will be opened and many will benefit from it. (not going to discuss the project yet). The parcel of land is too small for even the smallest deed to be planted on it, so after the project is complete the neighborhood will share in it's use. To my way of thinking that is a boon to all concerned.

In general: I pay my premium and the cost of my deed.... With real life money I hate to use and despise to even manage. What land in the game I use I pay for now (that wasn't always the case but now is). I do not go around harassing others, or making mines into other's deeds, or a host of other bothersome activities.

Now if under these circumstances you can somehow justify your claim that I am "taking up tiles and a nice scenic view" then please explain it to me.

[Mystecore 0]

I am going to get hammered for it too, you and Mystacore are only the first of many

Just injecting some humour into a boring Monday m8, no malicious intent.

[Kyrmius 194]

Just injecting some humour into a boring Monday m8, no malicious intent.

I understand. No maliciousness received then. Sorry, I am short on humour today.

[Othob Rithol 700]

Clearly you two know each other and have history.