Cartography navigation

[Vorticella 958]

This has come up in other threads many times but I didn't find a direct suggestion for it so decided it was worth making one.

 

Cartography was heavily requested and anticipated for a long time. I like how it was implemented, but can't get myself to spend time on it. It should have felt like a major addition to the game, but it seems mostly ignored or forgotten already. I'm sad about this, it has so much potential!

 

I firmly believe all it would take is the ability to find our location on the map, and nearly everyone would be out having fun with this cool new skill.

 

To be super clear, I am not suggesting a detailed minimap or any kind of continuous indicator. I picture it working exactly like the "show hint" action on treasure maps. You do the action and get a large, temporary circle showing your rough location on the normal in game map. Like this:

 

 

As you gain skill, the circle gets smaller. That's it. Let's be honest, the in-game map is not very informative. This action would not be game changing in any real way, but it would still give us motivation to learn the skill. Player brainpower, looking at landmarks etc would still be required to work out your exact position.

 

I know cartography was not meant to have a practical purpose, and I fully support having activities in the game that are just for fun. I just don't think cartography is the right place to do this, because the purpose it should have is so obvious it feels strange not to have it. This would make cartography feel rewarding and worth spending time on.

 

[Dao 145]

-1.

We are in the early Middle Ages. There is no GPS. And don't try to use salami slicing tactics in an attempt to "invent" it.

[Vorticella 958]

15 minutes ago, Dao said:

-1.

We are in the early Middle Ages. There is no GPS. And don't try to use salami slicing tactics in an attempt to "invent" it.

 

We're talking about map reading. People have been reading maps for a very, very long time  

[Dao 145]

1 hour ago, Vorticella said:

 

We're talking about map reading. People have been reading maps for a very, very long time  

And when Columbus sailed to America a circle with a location immediately appeared on his map.

 

I'll say it again. Don't try the slicing salami tactic.

[Vorticella 958]

4 minutes ago, Dao said:

And when Columbus sailed to America a circle with a location immediately appeared on his map.

 

I'll say it again. Don't try the slicing salami tactic.

 

You have to be trolling, right? Did you actually read the suggestion?

[Dao 145]

1 hour ago, Vorticella said:

 

 Did you actually read the suggestion?

 

Lets do it together.

 

6 hours ago, Vorticella said:

This has come up in other threads many times but I didn't find a direct suggestion for it so decided it was worth making one.

 

Cartography was heavily requested and anticipated for a long time. I like how it was implemented, but can't get myself to spend time on it. It should have felt like a major addition to the game, but it seems mostly ignored or forgotten already. I'm sad about this, it has so much potential!

 

I firmly believe all it would take is the ability to find our location on the map, and nearly everyone would be out having fun with this cool new skill.

 

 

This is rubbish, just an attempt to flatter the developers.

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6 hours ago, Vorticella said:

To be super clear, I am not suggesting a detailed minimap or any kind of continuous indicator. I picture it working exactly like the "show hint" action on treasure maps.

 

 

This is salami slicing tactic. As is.

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6 hours ago, Vorticella said:

You do the action and get a large, temporary circle showing your rough location on the normal in game map. As you gain skill, the circle gets smaller. That's it.

 

 

This is the main point of the post. So short.

 

Its meaning "You turn on GPS and get a circle with your location. With the growth of skill ... with the improvement of the quality of the GPS the location becomes more accurate."  That's it.

 

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6 hours ago, Vorticella said:

This action would not be game changing in any real way, but it would still give us motivation to learn the skill. Player brainpower, looking at landmarks etc would still be required to work out your exact position.

 

Another attempt to use salami slicing tactic.

 

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6 hours ago, Vorticella said:

I know cartography was not meant to have a practical purpose, and I fully support having activities in the game that are just for fun. I just don't think cartography is the right place to do this, because the purpose it should have is so obvious it feels strange not to have it. This would make cartography feel rewarding and worth spending time on.

 

And then comes another rubbish to flatter the developers.

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Do you really think everyone around is narrow-minded?

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Dao

[Drogos 518]

The op does not mention GPS, many claim early vikings did not even have a compass, and they could still pinpoint their location astonishingly accurate. The circle could of course be replaced with another type of marker that they would have back in the days, but if it works for all other map thigs like pinpointing location of holy sites, teasures, etc, I say it is good. In the same way as we have eg in game time accurate down to the second (guessing the character could know this based on sun positionm etc that is very hard for the player to get the sense of like one would irl, learning how to read stars etc to pinpoint your location is totally reasonable for the game setting. No GPS included. A GPS is in no way needed to be able to pinpoint ones location on a map.

[Dao 145]

1 hour ago, Drogos said:

many claim early vikings did not even have a compass, and they could still pinpoint their location astonishingly accurate.

 

That is why they sailed along the coast on ships not intended for the open sea. 🤣

[Schiann 995]

This is pretty much exactly the functionality I've suggested for Cartography.

 

It doesn't need to be continually updating, like GPS - it should be an action that you stop and perform with your map. Require a compass and dioptra if a map alone isn't "authentic" enough.

 

As is, Cartography doesn't really add a function to the game that isn't better served with 3rd party tools.

[Vorticella 958]

@DaoI have no idea what you're doing here, but it's not a constructive conversation. This is a perfectly reasonable suggestion and you know it. I've seen your excessively negative posts on other recent threads, so kinda know what to expect from you by now. I'm done replying to your comments after this.

 

And good points @Drogos, people have indeed been navigating without electronics for thousands of years!

 

The suggested ability is comparable to any number of actions we already have in game. Prospecting is a good example, where your character uses a trained skill to analyze rocks and you the player see a list of approximate vein locations hidden in rock several tiles away. The circle on the map is equivalent to the messages you receive from the prospecting action. Higher skill gives you greater accuracy. Same idea. 

[Dao 145]

1 hour ago, Vorticella said:

@DaoI have no idea what you're doing here, but it's not a constructive conversation. This is a perfectly reasonable suggestion and you know it. I've seen your excessively negative posts on other recent threads, so kinda know what to expect from you by now. I'm done replying to your comments after this.

 

"Constructive conversation" would be in my first response to your suggestion. But you decided to switch attention from "look like GPS" suggestion to my person. Decided to make me look negative instead of accepting my answer as fact. "You troll, you didn't even understand my sentence!" you say.

 

"What you wish upon others, you wish upon yourself"(c)

 

[TheTrickster 2,291]

I am in two minds about this.

 

I think map-reading is a genuine skill, so to me it makes sense for a character's skill in that area to be meaningful.  On the other hand, map reading is not map making.  Cartography is map making.  IRL, I have pretty good map reading skill and exceedingly pathetic map making skill.

 

I think that as map reading improves, the in-game map should give the player (who is the driver of the character) better feedback.  I don't like the blue shading from treasure hunting for that.  I think the "I am know I am somewhere in here) area should be reasonably brightly lit and decently coloured while the area beyond that should be slightly dimmer and definitely greyer.

 

I don't like cartography in-game.  I think it lacks practical use, requires too much "high skill" gear for starter carters, and created more items that have no function other than as components of this system.  I would like to have seen player-made maps able to be incorporated into their in-game map when it is displayed.  Like an overlay with more detail than just markers.  Possibly zoomable as a pop-out inset map.

 

I like salami, but have no idea what it has to do with this suggestion.

 

EDIT:  The more I think on it, the more I think this would be a great addition (although not the blue circle, please).  

Edited July 14, 2023 by TheTrickster

[TheTrickster 2,291]

3 hours ago, Dao said:

That is why they sailed along the coast on ships not intended for the open sea. 🤣

I clearly need to relearn my geography and history.

 

I thought Britain was on an island separated from Scandinavia by the Northern Sea.  Iceland also.  Come to think of it, I didn't know about the land-bridge to North America either.

 

I also thought that Vikings were known as seafaring people and their ships were in fact lighter and more seaworthy than those of neighbours.

 

Go figure.

 

[TheTrickster 2,291]

6 hours ago, Dao said:

We are in the early Middle Ages.

No we aren't.  We are in the 21st century, late Secondary Information Age.  We play a game set in the middle ages, but the game itself relies heavily on Information Age technology to mediate and represent the setting.

 

You don't light a fire in Wurm by using a steel and flint.  You pretend to do so by clicking on a button and watching a digital representation of a fire starting.  This suggestion is not about the characters using GPS it is about how to represent to the player that their character has acquired skills in reading the map.

[Dao 145]

4 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

I clearly need to relearn my geography and history.

 

I thought Britain was on an island separated from Scandinavia by the Northern Sea.  Iceland also.  Come to think of it, I didn't know about the land-bridge to North America either.

 

I also thought that Vikings were known as seafaring people and their ships were in fact lighter and more seaworthy than those of neighbours.

 

Go figure.

 

 

Let's go figure.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Do you know how to get from Norway to the Mainland Island without GPS?

 

There is a little trick here. You sail from Norway towards Mainland which is 300 km away. You sail and sail and sail... and still see the mountains of Norway. You have already sailed 150 km and you can still see the mountains of Norway. Wow, these mountains are easy to determine the direction. But the mountains are gone. You continue to sail and ... after 70-80 kilometers you see something on the horizon again . Yes, this is Mainland Island, which can be seen for 70 kilometers. Yes,  we did it! We are great sailors, almost Vikings! Do you have a beard?

 

In the same simple way, we get to the Faroe Islands. It is more difficult, but they sailed much less often there. No wonder the Faroe Islands were considered the place of residence of hermits.

 

And they sailed to Iceland as often as we fly to the ISS today. And in the same amount of people. By the way, the volcanoes of Iceland are visible for 180 kilometers. But these voyages are no longer for you and me, but for medieval astronauts.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Dao

[Miretta 1,415]

+1 if we can estimate treasure locations like this, I don't see why we shouldn't get this for cartography aswell.
Would possibly help newer players or those who are more directionally challenged without being a literal minimap with player marker. 
 

[Dao 145]

1 hour ago, Miretta said:

+1 if we can estimate treasure locations like this, I don't see why we shouldn't get this for cartography aswell.
Would possibly help newer players or those who are more directionally challenged without being a literal minimap with player marker. 
 

  

On 7/11/2023 at 7:05 PM, Miretta said:

I understand that people have attachments to games they have played previously and that they would want to continue somehow, but requesting that the game changes to adapt to themselves, when it was the player who changed, is unreasonable.
There isn't any game out there that was ever meant to be played forever and while wurm could use some improvements, I don't think that suggesting that wurm should be faster paced (to adapt to more modern games) or to completely abandon wurm in it's current state to work on wurm 2.0 is any helpful for THIS wurm right now.
You all know there are games like ultima online and runescape out there, where the original versions are even more played than the more "modern" versions of their games. It certainly is not because they updated graphics or made skilling easier.
It's because they added conviniences more modern games have like the ability to change UI or set keybinds, updated menus, being able to choose how you control your character.
Also features, new exciting content that players wanted to engage with, but in the style and ways fitting to the original game.
 

 

Lack of GPS is definitely "style and ways of the original game".

 

"Were you lying then, or are you lying now"(c)

Edited July 14, 2023 by Dao

[Budda 2,675]

4 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

I would like to have seen player-made maps able to be incorporated into their in-game map when it is displayed.  Like an overlay with more detail than just markers.  Possibly zoomable as a pop-out inset map.

 

This functionality exists with the atlas and stamps, just FYI. You can use a linked stamp to set a world map location, then use that stamp on the map. When that map is in a carried atlas, the stamp icon will be shown on the world map and you can click it to directly open the linked map.

[Miretta 1,415]

40 minutes ago, Dao said:

  

 

Lack of GPS is definitely "style and ways of the original game".

 

"Were you lying then, or are you lying now"(c)

what the hell man, way to cherry pick what you want to read/interpret into someones post.
If you don't like a suggestion someone made, just say so and leave it at that, don't go after people who are disagreeing with your opinion.

[Dao 145]

 

1 hour ago, Miretta said:

what the hell man, way to cherry pick what you want to read/interpret into someones post.
If you don't like a suggestion someone made, just say so and leave it at that, don't go after people who are disagreeing with your opinion.

 

That is, when you don’t like suggestion, then let's keep "style and ways of the original game". And when you like it, then let's forget "style and ways of the original game" and “help newer players”. It's funny that you're lecturing me about morality.

 

BTW  I'm not going after you, don't make it up. I have no prejudice towards people at all. I appreciate only their ideas.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Dao

[Vorticella 958]

5 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

I think map-reading is a genuine skill, so to me it makes sense for a character's skill in that area to be meaningful.  On the other hand, map reading is not map making.  Cartography is map making.  IRL, I have pretty good map reading skill and exceedingly pathetic map making skill.

 

I would say it makes sense you can read maps but not know how to make them, but if you do know how to make them you should naturally be able to read them too.

 

3 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

This suggestion is not about the characters using GPS it is about how to represent to the player that their character has acquired skills in reading the map.

 

Exactly!

 

[Miretta 1,415]

8 minutes ago, Dao said:

 

 

That is, when you don’t like suggestion, then let's keep "style and ways of the original game". And when you like it, then let's forget "style and ways of the original game" and “help newer players”. It's funny that you're lecturing me about morality.

 

BTW  I'm not going after you, don't make it up. I have no prejudice towards people at all. I appreciate only their ideas.

 

 

going out of your way to quote peoples post from a different thread, calling them a "possible" liar IS targeting, no matter how much you try to wiggle your way out of that.

My post about keeping the game close to it's original, was also including adding features and extensions to games in the same spirit of the old game.

And btw. even if you keep repeating that this suggestion would be akin to GPS it doesn't make it true. GPS would be like a constantly updating minimap on the side of your screen, not a vague estimate, which you can get from using a skill once in a while while travelling, probably even needing to stand still for it to work, similar to compasses.

The way you formulate your argument (and not in spirit of the post you quoted from me) makes it sound as if ANY change to the game should be abolished, especially if YOU personally disagree with it being in the spirit of the game.

[Dao 145]

  

2 hours ago, Miretta said:

going out of your way to quote peoples post from a different thread, calling them a "possible" liar IS targeting, no matter how much you try to wiggle your way out of that.

The way you formulate your argument (and not in spirit of the post you quoted from me) makes it sound as if ANY change to the game should be abolished, especially if YOU personally disagree with it being in the spirit of the game.

I didn't talk about anything like that at all. I just quoted your posts. It's not my fault that you change your mind so often. Stick to any one of version and you won't get caught.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Miretta said:

My post about keeping the game close to it's original, was also including adding features and extensions to games in the same spirit of the old game.

 

Lack of GPS is definitely  "spirit of the old game".  Maybe I'm wrong and this is just an insignificant detail that does not affect "the spirit of the game" at all? Then say it directly "I believe that the introduction of GPS in the game is a trifle that does not change the spirit of the game".

 

 

2 hours ago, Miretta said:

And btw. even if you keep repeating that this suggestion would be akin to GPS it doesn't make it true. GPS would be like a constantly updating minimap on the side of your screen, not a vague estimate, which you can get from using a skill once in a while while travelling, probably even needing to stand still for it to work, similar to compasses.

 

Any information about your current location from "divine revelation" is an attempt to circumvent "the spirit of the game" that forbade this for 20 years. Whatever you call it and what tricks do not come up with for this.  You can tell that you need to stop for this, it is not a minimap in the corner of the screen, it is called cartography, it is updated less often than the GPS, the Vikings sailed, Columbus knew ... whatever. The meaning will remain the same.

 

Do you want to make the game easier for yourself? Well, just say "I want to make the game easier for myself. Get me GPS." Then describe how your GPS should look like and how to be called. Then everything will be clear and honest and no one will catch you with contradictions in your beliefs. That's why I didn't say anything to TheTrickster. Because he did not get out, but directly said "I do not want any cartography, I want a vulgar GPS with clear details." His opinion is understandable, although I do not agree with him. I also made my disagreement clear.

 

But no, for some reason you prefer to disguise your true intentions. Do you really think no one will notice your tricks?

 

And after all this, you're trying to shame me.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Dao

[Oblivionnreaver 5,175]

7 minutes ago, Dao said:

Any information about your current location from "divine revelation" is an attempt to circumvent "the spirit of the game" that forbade this for 20 years

use a dioptra on any astral object and it'll tell you what region of the map you're in and is more or less the same as what op is suggesting, just adding a visual+skill to that, is that circumventing the spirit of the game? is typing /weather circumventing lighting a fire or watching the clouds to see which way they drift? how about triangulating your location via locate soul? highways are effectively gps too, there seems to be lots of navigational things that circumvent "the spirit of the game" which of course isn't even a tangible thing as that's entirely subjective that will change over time

 

if you're gonna spend all day arguing at least be good at it

[Dao 145]

1 hour ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

use a dioptra on any astral object and it'll tell you what region of the map you're in and is more or less the same as what op is suggesting, just adding a visual+skill to that, is that circumventing the spirit of the game? is typing /weather circumventing lighting a fire or watching the clouds to see which way they drift? how about triangulating your location via locate soul? highways are effectively gps too, there seems to be lots of navigational things that circumvent "the spirit of the game" which of course isn't even a tangible thing as that's entirely subjective that will change over time

 

if you're gonna spend all day arguing at least be good at it

 

I'm not talking about the "spirit of the game". I just used the Miretta's terminology. I said clearly GPS is not needed

  

13 hours ago, Dao said:

-1.

We are in the early Middle Ages. There is no GPS. And don't try to use salami slicing tactics in an attempt to "invent" it.

 

Do you have a different opinion? No problem. Express it. But be direct. Say "I want GPS". But you also began to evade the direct expression "there is a dioptra , there are highways, maybe it's not so bad if there is something similar to GPS, only we will not call it GPS"

 

Why are you so afraid to express your thoughts clearly?

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Dao