[Withdrawn Proposal] Shared Priest

[Kiddo 27]

LATER EDIT:

Based on the feedback received (zero interest and lots of people pointing at potential problems) I decided to officially withdraw the proposal.

I still think that it's a good idea which would benefit everyone involved, but it looks I'm pretty much the only one thinking so.

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Hello friends,

Let's admit it - a priest (especially a Vynora one) is nice to have.

If you're part of a village or a larger alliance this is probably not a concern for you, since you probably get all the casts you need for (almost) free.

What if you're a casual or solo player? The only existing options at this moment would be to either pay a priest for all your enchants (and if you ask me their prices are really outrageous - at least from the perspective of a casual player who's not willing to chip in the game more than a few euros every now and then) or just try leveling a second priest character (which can be a really daunting task) just to end up not using her for more than 90% of the time.

What if there would be a third solution? What if you could get all the free casts you need with only a tenth of the costs / time investment? Could that be true? Yes, it can! But only if we learn to trust each other and work as a team.

So, here's the plan:

- we should get 10 people together (could work with less, but the more we are, the less the efforts we have to put in, and 10 is kinda the maximum numbeat which time planning should not bring problems, but really it could work with less than that - initially I though at something like four or five people)

- create a new character and share it among all of us

- each one of us would share the cost for its premium account (with 10 people, that's 1 silver per month each)

- each one of us would get to use the priest for three days per month (we can discuss - either have it each one three days in a row, or just one day every 10 days, or whatever)

- using it means both leveling it during those days (give her priority over your main for those days, but hey you have 27 days while you don't care about her at all) and casting whatever spells you want with her (and really, if you have all your tools / weapons prepared upfront in three days you have more than enough time to enchant them all)

- repeat each and every month and enjoy the benefits

Eventually, in a couple of months, thanks to the fact that we share the effort, she should be pretty much on par with any other priest from the server and we should have most of our own tools already enchanted, so we can eventually also start making some money by selling some enchants to other people (although I would really prefer to change the trend on the server and just give them away for free to show everyone that the game is really NOT about being greedy).

So... what do you think? Anyone in? Feel free to answer either here or by sending me a PM.

PS: I already have a character I no longer use with quite a lot of premium time on so we can use her; however if you prefer not to we can always create a new one.

LATER EDIT (Optional reading):

I will try to answer here any concerns that appeared after the time I made the post.

#1 - The risk that someone would try to take over the account (change email, password)

As a first layer of defense, we can just use the password file and not give the full password, however, as stated, this won't offer 100% guarantee that no harm can't be done.

As a second layer of defense, since there is no sale logs neither on chat or on forums, I guess that if someone will take over the account we can eventually contact GMs and ask to retransfer the account to the original email address. They may or may not do that, but I think there is a decent chance they would do it, since the new "owner" would have no way to prove that he actually bought / was gifted the account from the old owner.

As a third layer of defense, we have the seclusion of our close market - is like everyone would know the character name since we'll make it public here, and if someone will try to take over, and sell the account, again everyone will know who that person is and I doubt he would easily find a customer.

But, at the end of the day, it's just about trust. Yes, it may happen, but I really don't think it will. I just decided long time ago to trust people... sometime I was burnt... but I never regretted that decision...

#2 - If we'll ever sell this account

If we'll ever decide to sell the account (decide together!) of course all money will be split equally among all people involved, since everyone contributed equally to the raising of the character.

#3 - If you want to back-off

If you'll want to back-off from this whole deal (either you'll quit the game all together, join a village, decide to create your own priest, go to another server or any other reason) you are, of course, allowed to find a buyer for your "share" who will take all the right and duties you had. However, the only condition is that we should agree to that person too, since we're basically trusting her / him with our shares too.

But, for the sake of it, let's be pessimistic and presume that someday something bad will happen and we'll just loose the priest. Yes it would be a bummer, but would it be a tragedy? I think definitely not and here's why I say that. Someone doing something like that would definitely ruin her / his reputation here, and I doubt that anyone would do it while the value of the priest is still relatively low. I doubt anyone would jeopardize their reputation for only 100 USD. And by that time that someone might be tempted to do it, we would probably already have a positive ROI (be on profit), had a nice experience of actually forming a team and make it work (for a while) and generally had fun during the process. And yes, it is NOT a perfect solution. But I'm quite sure it is better then the alternatives.

And if we talk about risks... well... risks are all around us. What if WURM becomes unprofitable for Rolf and he just decides to close it all together and we all loose all our characters? What if a plane crashes on Rolf's house and again the game closes all together? What if a plane crashes on one of our houses? Let's just be a bit more open minded, start being so pessimistic, start be more open minded and start trusting people more. For example, I had the idea, but I have absolutely no problem in trusting someone else to be the main account holder. I just think trusting people is good for karma.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Kiddo

[Hordern 2,177]

Just be aware that any player with access to the account would be able to change the registered e-mail address and password at any time and there's more or less nothing you could then do about it.

[Kiddo 27]

It's the same case if access is given via the password file, not the full password?

I think this way only one person, the most trustful one (I don't say this has to be me), needs to have the real password - rest of us could just log with the password file.

So we would really have to trust one person only.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Kiddo

[Hordern 2,177]

Sorry to say but that is not the case. You do not need to know the password to change the registered e-mail address, you just have to be logged in on the account to be able to do so.

[Kegan 3,926]

If you don't care about what happens in the end it might work if you have a good group and i guess it already happens in large villages now. The only thing i see is when the skills get to be high and the priest takes on a $200-$330 value who is the one to get that in the end the password holder? Is that fair to everyone else that spent the silver and time getting the skills too? Will you be able to sell your share if/when you choose to stop? Lots of problems that could come up over the deal but it is an interesting take for sure.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Kegan

[san_tropez 394]

Not to mention the password text is hardly encrypted

[Makarus 458]

Trust me. I'm a professional. What's the password? JK I have my own priests.

This is used within various villages, many people share accts through this method, I wouldn't give access to anyone but those whom you explicitly trust, tho.

[Kiddo 27]

Answering the issues raised far now (also added that to the initial post):

#1 - The risk that someone would try to take over the account (change email, password)

As a first layer of defense, we can just use the password file and not give the full password, however, as stated, this won't offer 100% guarantee that no harm can't be done.

As a second layer of defense, since there is no sale logs neither on chat or on forums, I guess that if someone will take over the account we can eventually contact GMs and ask to retransfer the account to the original email address. They may or may not do that, but I think there is a decent chance they would do it, since the new "owner" would have no way to prove that he actually bought / was gifted the account from the old owner.

As a third layer of defense, we have the seclusion of our close market - is like everyone would know the character name since we'll make it public here, and if someone will try to take over, and sell the account, again everyone will know who that person is and I doubt he would easily find a customer.

But, at the end of the day, it's just about trust. Yes, it may happen, but I really don't think it will. I just decided long time ago to trust people... sometime I was burnt... but I never regretted that decision...

#2 - If we'll ever sell this account

If we'll ever decide to sell the account (decide together!) of course all money will be split equally among all people involved, since everyone contributed equally to the raising of the character.

#3 - If you want to back-off

If you'll want to back-off from this whole deal (either you'll quit the game all together, join a village, decide to create your own priest, go to another server or any other reason) you are, of course, allowed to find a buyer for your "share" who will take all the right and duties you had. However, the only condition is that we should agree to that person too, since we're basically trusting her / him with our shares too.

But, for the sake of it, let's be pessimistic and presume that someday something bad will happen and we'll just loose the priest. Yes it would be a bummer, but would it be a tragedy? I think definitely not and here's why I say that. Someone doing something like that would definitely ruin her / his reputation here, and I doubt that anyone would do it while the value of the priest is still relatively low. I doubt anyone would jeopardize their reputation for only 100 USD. And by that time that someone might be tempted to do it, we would probably already have a positive ROI (be on profit), had a nice experience of actually forming a team and make it work (for a while) and generally had fun during the process. And yes, it is NOT a perfect solution. But I'm quite sure it is better then the alternatives.

And if we talk about risks... well... risks are all around us. What if WURM becomes unprofitable for Rolf and he just decides to close it all together and we all loose all our characters? What if a plane crashes on Rolf's house and again the game closes all together? What if a plane crashes on one of our houses? Let's just be a bit more open minded, start being so pessimistic, start be more open minded and start trusting people more. For example, I had the idea, but I have absolutely no problem in trusting someone else to be the main account holder. I just think trusting people is good for karma.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Kiddo

[Roan 62]

I suppose if this isn't disallowed ( account sharing) then they could just post a thread on the forums with all the information regarding their agreement and should someone snake off with the account they could point the GMs to the thread and since only 1 person can be the original owner... Nobody can "steal" it..... Except the original owner of course.

[Kiddo 27]

Roan,

It's a grey zone - account sharing is not disallowed, but it's not protected either.

Quoting from the rules:

"Account sharing isn't condoned, but there is no rule against it ( ie no action will be taken for account sharing). However, any action taken on a shared account is the responsibility of the owner (no matter who is on it) so it is at the players own risk that a player shares."

Edited April 17, 2013 by Kiddo

[Elen 1,013]

As long as no one gets on it and gets it banned, should be good to go.

[cmiddlebrook 182]

I already have my own priest but knowing now the work that has to go into it I think this is a great idea for more casual players assuming you can manage the trust issues.

[Hordern 2,177]

As far as #1 goes:

#1 - the risk that someone would try to take over the account (change email, password)

As a first layer of defense we can just use the password file and not give the full password, however, as stated, this won't offer 100% guarantee that no harm can't be done.

As a second layer of defense since there is no sale logs neither on chat or on forums, I guess that if someone will take over the account we can eventually contact GMs and ask to retransfer the account to the original email address. They may or may not do that, but I think there is a high chance they would do it, since the new "owner" would have no way to prove that he actually bought / was gifted the account from the old owner.

But, at the end of the day, it's just about trust. In this game people who don't know each other at all trade accounts of a few hundred euros every day and, at least far now, i haven't heard of any scam. With a group of people we know each other I doubt this will happen to us. Yes, it may happen, but I really don't think it will. I just trust people...

No. We [The GM's] woudn't transfer it back because this would be a clear case of account sharing where the player gained access to the account legitimately - Even if the information about the account and who was using it was shared publically, there's no action we could take due to the rules as they currently stand. You may notice that the account sales that do go for a hefty amount are generally sold from forum account with a lot of posts. They are often well known within the community. As far as the buyer, may are sold in private bids, so there's no knowing there, but I'd be willing to bet that most are also established forum accounts so again, the seller may well have a general knowledge of the person and what they're like. I also know that if I was selling an account, I'd get opinions on the buyer from other players that I trust before going through with it. Players will also try and protect themselves by ensuring only verified paypal is used etc.

I'm not trying to put you off here, but I want you to be extremely cautious. Many people are not as nice/friendly/well meaning as you appear to be. I know I would never enter an agreement such as you're proposing bt I wish you well if you proceed..

[Ayes 3,715]

Although on the surface this seems to be a wonderful idea based upon cooperative people of good will all striving for the goal of building a priest character that would benifit them all, finding a group of people with these admirable attributes from a forum posting would be a very dubious approach to this end goal. More likely you will assemble a random mix of people with unknown character to eachother with a few opportunists snaking their way into the group with more self centered goals that would tend to let others put forth more effort into the character so that they could get more of the benifits then they had put into it.

Then of course a few would join up with the sole intent to later take over the character and sell it off for their own profit with not a second thought as to the advantage they were taking of the others time and effort put into building it up to a sale for profit character. Myself, I would *never* join any cooperative group of players that I did not know from an extended period of time in game and that each one of which I did not get along with in a most pleasant manner. I find your idea that this will work out in a positive and benificial manner by recruiting random people who are not well known to eachother to be very niave in the ways of human behavior, which would further persuade me to stay well away from any group such as this that you would organize, since with your outstretched arms you will invite the wolves into this mix to devour the sheep as well.

Perhaps this might sound rather harsh and negative to you; however, with this idea you have proposed you seem to not have noted the various self centered people who grace these forums as well as the complaints listed of scammers and "griefers" who have caused discomfort and financial loss to others within the game without any remorse but rather a disturbed sort of glee for the anguish that they have inflicted upon others.

As within the relatively short time you have been playing this game you have received some positive help from the more giving sort of players, it seems to me that with this idea you propose you are too much influenced in thinking that all will go well because of these experiences. Establishing a priest character in the shared manner you have proposed is just too valuable of an investment over time leading to a "prefect" opportunity for some supposedly trusted person to remain dormant within this group until the priest has reached a level of skill where it will be prime for sale for a RL profit, which the ineffencies of the Wurm "guidlines" will not protect from being accomplished.

Since from your own description of yourself you are easily disturbed from some of the minor problems that arise from just playing the game, for your own peace of mind and continued enjoyment I would advise you to center your efforts on what you can accomplish on your own and then take the opportunity to help others as it arises. With this proposal you are just setting yourself up for many problems as others with intentions not so cooperative as your own that will create many more frustrations for you along the way.

In closing, a bad idea that most who will see the risk they are exposing them selves to with time put into this coop priest character will not participate in anyway. Those that would are not ones that I would place a lot of value upon their judgement of human interaction within online gaming situations and would most likely have little to do with on any sort of a shared basis of my own assets within the Wurm worlds.

=Ayes=

[Kiddo 27]

Ayes,

I totally understand what you're saying and I thank you for the advises you gave me here. You are absolutely right in everything you're saying and, up to a point, I was aware that the worst thing may happen at some point.

Yet, I decided to start this things, basing my judgement on two things:

1. Since this is public, anyone doing this will get herself / himself quite a bad reputation for scamming the rest of us, and I think that it will not be easy for her / him to even sell the character on the forum. This doesn't mean it won't happen. It just means that it won't happen before the priest reaches a value high enough so on his scale of valor the value in RL money becomes higher than his / her reputation. And for someone playing by 6+ months (that was one of the conditions I had in mind for people) that should be high enough. I doubt anyone would risk his reputation for 100 USD. And, by that time, we all should have probably benefited more than the invested in the priest. Does that makes any sense?

2. I really lack any other options - I don't really intend to invest any more money in the game to be able to afford the enchants for all tools, I don't have the time to level a priest by myself (I barely have time for my character) and I really don't know anyone in game good enough who doesn't have a priest yet to be able to form a group of only known people. So it was basically choosing between "definitely not having a solution" to "try a solution that may end either bad or worse".

That was my judgement. But I'm definitely not a smart person, so probably I made some logic mistakes. From the feedback I received here it looks like it's not really an workable idea and I should better withdraw it. Thank you for pointing me some of the flaws.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Kiddo

[Ayes 3,715]

Kiddo, I am pleased to read that you have taken my response in a positive manner and given it some further thought. From your posts you do seem to be a pleasant person with good intentions, aside from the fact that you put yourself down unnecessarily. Many of the advanced options of the game have a RL cost associated to them which can only be avoided by doing without, purchasing a character from another or taking the added time needed to build up the skills necessary to create the items for oneself.

Placing the type of trust in others required to reach these more advanced options is a fragile thread to tread upon which can easily be broken and abused by those with not so positive intentions as your own. As in life, I find it best to give my trust out sparingly to those I have found to be deserving of it over time. Wurm can be a fun diversion of ones time but when RL money intrudes into the process the hawks will hover overhead to take advantage of those with a more grounded view of the situation. All online games are infamous for attracting these opportunist types, with Wurm being no exception in this respect.

Best to just play the game for your enjoyment and over time the haze will clear enabling you to have a clearer viewpoint on the direction within that you wish to travel. Happy trails.

=Ayes=

[Kiddo 27]

Based on the feedback received (zero interest and lots of people pointing at potential problems) I decided to officially withdraw the proposal.

I still think that it's a good idea which would benefit everyone involved, but it looks I'm pretty much the only one thinking so.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Kiddo