[14:11:18] You must not move while doing that. [14:11:18] You stop shooting.

[Deathangel 427]

[14:11:05] You hold a long bow in your two hands.

 

I recommend making game more realistic and helping PvP by alllowing movement while shooting, but balance it by adding a small accuracy penalty similar to CR debuff during movement in melee, but say 30% accuracy penalty while moving.

 

Excellence: optional, but if dev time allows, scale the accuracy penalty based on movement speed with 1 km/h = 1 % accuracy penalty.

 

Controversial add-on: SAME WITH SPELLS.

[Egard 3,369]

-1

[Ekcin 2,424]

@Egard : Care to elaborate what's to say against the proposal? If it is a PvP thing, I cannot comment but would welcome explanations though.

 

The core proposal, removing unnecessary movement penalizing, is sound and should be supported, at minimum moving on the same tile must not be punished with archery, and even more with digging for treasure. Restricting movement over the tile/s while the action runs is another thing. Adding a penalty of difficulty seems to be a sound idea, at least in PvE. Whether it breaks something in PvP I cannot say.

[Emi 182]

i think this would be unbalanced if you did that without some really heavy archery nerf while moving like arrows don't even do damage maybe it'd be better for the DEVs to work on improving other aspects of pvp first DA

 

 

22 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

@Egard : Care to elaborate what's to say against the proposal? If it is a PvP thing, I cannot comment but would welcome explanations though.

 

The core proposal, removing unnecessary movement penalizing, is sound and should be supported, at minimum moving on the same tile must not be punished with archery, and even more with digging for treasure. Restricting movement over the tile/s while the action runs is another thing. Adding a penalty of difficulty seems to be a sound idea, at least in PvE. Whether it breaks something in PvP I cannot say.

 

who do you pvp on exactly? i think its fair for him to -1 without saying much considering who it is...

 

 

(if this is a freedom only change, sure)

Edited December 26, 2023 by Emi

[Madnath 3,113]

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

@Egard : Care to elaborate what's to say against the proposal? If it is a PvP thing, I cannot comment but would welcome explanations though.

 

The core proposal, removing unnecessary movement penalizing, is sound and should be supported, at minimum moving on the same tile must not be punished with archery, and even more with digging for treasure. Restricting movement over the tile/s while the action runs is another thing. Adding a penalty of difficulty seems to be a sound idea, at least in PvE. Whether it breaks something in PvP I cannot say.

 

My guess is what it really means for combat as it stands.

Any damage will put a horse into hurting and nuke its speed. If you want to do that without getting close, it makes sense to force someone to a stop. It creates a trade off, do you want to be close to them constantly ready for a fight? Or are you willing to hope your arrow hits and you get to play catch up for that timespan the horse is hurting? Removing that takes away that trade off sitation, and turns that scenario into each party just flinging arrows at each other until they get lucky and have an advantage.

Don't really mind if the change goes PvE only, I just can't really think of a way to make it work in PvP that doesn't make this scenario worse.

[Shinso 123]

-1 if u wanna shoot while moving use a damn cart,

[garforl 163]

another thing totally in the realm of possibility, both irl and in Wurm. dont see why not. would make for some truly brutal raiding parties, however effective that may be since the logic for shooting arrows over fences is a bit strange as well.

 

thats kind of a big roadblock im facing right now in pvp. handful of things that are realistic but rendered impossible due to the strange laws of nature.

3 hours ago, Madnath said:

 

My guess is what it really means for combat as it stands.

Any damage will put a horse into hurting and nuke its speed. If you want to do that without getting close, it makes sense to force someone to a stop. It creates a trade off, do you want to be close to them constantly ready for a fight? Or are you willing to hope your arrow hits and you get to play catch up for that timespan the horse is hurting? Removing that takes away that trade off sitation, and turns that scenario into each party just flinging arrows at each other until they get lucky and have an advantage.

Don't really mind if the change goes PvE only, I just can't really think of a way to make it work in PvP that doesn't make this scenario worse.

bolded the part in response to. essentially the why of your explanation doesnt resonate with me.

does it matter whether i start-stop-start accurately with my horse or continually ride with a sharp accuracy drop? this proposal itself is a new trade off one can make.

 

your last statement is pvp at its core isnt it? i want to hurt. i want to be hurt. why not let arrows fly?

 

edit:

 

bit of explanation on the fence thing. maybe im a fool cause i use favor instead of arrows and have yet to draw blood in pvp. on a even, flat tileset. can an archer shoot an arrow over a waist high wooden fence?

Edited December 27, 2023 by garforl

[Madnath 3,113]

1 hour ago, garforl said:

does it matter whether i start-stop-start accurately with my horse or continually ride with a sharp accuracy drop? this proposal itself is a new trade off one can make.

 

It doesn't matter when you throw hurting status and its implications out of the window. Having your horse go into hurting in some circumstances is enough of a death sentence and removing any of that buffer time between catch up and hurting status being removed directly hurts a single party.

I wrote a weirdly long reply and then realised I didn't really care enough to elaborate more but in general it just creates awful situations where retreats and baits aren't as viable or possible because a big enough group can literally just fire arrows to their hearts content knowing the moment one arrow goes into a horse it's a damage feeding frenzy because that person is screwed.

I cannot overstate this enough. A horse going into hurting is as close to a total death sentence in most situations as you can get to.

Also "sharp accuracy drop" was never mentioned, OP only mentions a 30% drop which isn't nearly enough to get close to a decent level of balance for something this big.

 

2 hours ago, garforl said:

your last statement is pvp at its core isnt it? i want to hurt. i want to be hurt. why not let arrows fly?

 

A rather wild overstatement. Yes, you play to advantages, but very rarely are you ever in a situation where people are just picked off if being chased, or having people drop away one by one in a weird leap frog if being pursued.

 

Not really sure where firing arrows over fences and stuff comes into this given that's not really a part of this lol

[Ekcin 2,424]

5 hours ago, Madnath said:

 

My guess is what it really means for combat as it stands.

Any damage will put a horse into hurting and nuke its speed. If you want to do that without getting close, it makes sense to force someone to a stop. It creates a trade off, do you want to be close to them constantly ready for a fight? Or are you willing to hope your arrow hits and you get to play catch up for that timespan the horse is hurting? Removing that takes away that trade off sitation, and turns that scenario into each party just flinging arrows at each other until they get lucky and have an advantage.

Don't really mind if the change goes PvE only, I just can't really think of a way to make it work in PvP that doesn't make this scenario worse.

Thanks, that makes sense.

[garforl 163]

7 hours ago, Madnath said:

 

It doesn't matter when you throw hurting status and its implications out of the window. Having your horse go into hurting in some circumstances is enough of a death sentence and removing any of that buffer time between catch up and hurting status being removed directly hurts a single party.

I wrote a weirdly long reply and then realised I didn't really care enough to elaborate more but in general it just creates awful situations where retreats and baits aren't as viable or possible because a big enough group can literally just fire arrows to their hearts content knowing the moment one arrow goes into a horse it's a damage feeding frenzy because that person is screwed.

I cannot overstate this enough. A horse going into hurting is as close to a total death sentence in most situations as you can get to.

Also "sharp accuracy drop" was never mentioned, OP only mentions a 30% drop which isn't nearly enough to get close to a decent level of balance for something this big.

 

 

A rather wild overstatement. Yes, you play to advantages, but very rarely are you ever in a situation where people are just picked off if being chased, or having people drop away one by one in a weird leap frog if being pursued.

 

Not really sure where firing arrows over fences and stuff comes into this given that's not really a part of this lol

I understand what you are saying, I don't understand why that is bad.

 

A big enough group can do anything they want. Movement with archery seems irrelevant to that. Wouldnt this still benefit the person fleeing as well, as they could fire arrows back. This hurt status could benefit them just as much.

 

Heck escape from PvP should be difficult. Either die or be victorious.

 

The fence thing was more of a side tangent about how strange the PvP meta can be.

Edited December 27, 2023 by garforl

[Zundy 99]

I guess it removes the point of having types of bow. The amount of distance you can put between yourself and your target with a longbow makes movement irrelevant and being able to essentially run away with a shortbow overpowers them.

[Deathangel 427]

On 12/27/2023 at 8:11 AM, Zundy said:

I guess it removes the point of having types of bow. The amount of distance you can put between yourself and your target with a longbow makes movement irrelevant and being able to essentially run away with a shortbow overpowers them.

I don't understand why I can't shoot 3 tiles away with a longbow. I bet it would hurt just as bad in real life!

 

But removing the minimum range would make all the bow types obsolete? Not necessarily - a major archery rework like this would provide the opportunity to further balance the bow types and perhaps even replace medium bow with crossbow. Consider the below for example:

 

Minor archery tweaks:

- Minimum ranges are removed from all bows (why did this ever exist?).

- Short bow has accuracy and damage bonus 25% <10 tiles away. 

- Long bow has accuracy and damage penalty 25% <10 tiles away.

- Med bow, replaced with cross bow 10 sec timer but 33% archery damage bonus and 33% accuracy bonus (DPS not broken, but accuracy bonus worthwhile). Greater armor penetration would be a goal of cross bow. Range could be discussed by the pvp playerbase for balancing but the goal of cross bow is heavy armor penetration from what I understand.

 

and for the OP point: 

- Movement no longer cancels archery actions, but an Accuracy Penalty % = 1.5 * (archer speed + target speed) is applied.

 

Two barded hell horse enemies, one chasing the other, traveling at 25 kmh each, would have a 1.5 * (25 + 25) = 75 % reduction in accuracy. This is perhaps steeper and more fair than the OP numbers I provided for example earlier. It also introduces a new, realistic concept: target movement affect on accuracy. 

 

Thoughts?

Edited January 3 by Deathangel

[Deathangel 427]

14 minutes ago, Deathangel said:

for the OP point: 

- Movement no longer cancels archery actions, but an Accuracy Penalty % = 1.5 * (archer speed + target speed) is applied.

 

Two barded hell horse enemies, one chasing the other, traveling at 25 kmh each, would have a 1.5 * (25 + 25) = 75 % reduction in accuracy. This is perhaps steeper and more fair than the OP numbers I provided for example earlier. It also introduces a new, realistic concept: target movement affect on accuracy.

Staying back on topic

 

Even more interestingly: Consider the speed approach to pvp evasion this would create.

 

Consider a speed gear HH without barding evading another speed hell horse.

Accuracy penalty = 1.5 * (40 + 40) = 120% 

 

Finally, consider a speed HH target running from an archer on foot.

Accuracy penalty = 1.5 * (17 + 40) = 85.5% 

Edited January 3 by Deathangel
added speed hell horse (unbarded) example