Are traders broken?

[Guest Siege]

Meh, you need disposable items to encourage money being put into traders Rara. Are these nodrop items? If so, only a finite number will be purchased, but if not, seems like some decent loot. Also, would you still be able to fill the neverdrying water skin?

[raraavis 0]

Meh, you need disposable items to encourage money being put into traders Rara. Are these nodrop items? If so, only a finite number will be purchased, but if not, seems like some decent loot. Also, would you still be able to fill the neverdrying water skin?

being nondrop, etc - these are details 

I know some ppl who have a lot of coins and do not have anything extraordinary to spend them on. How many twigs or res stones you can buy and use?

Certainly we need more stuff, more choices. But nothing too powerfull, like silver farewalker amulets for example. The game will not ruined if one can carry 4kg more kg at full speed or don't have to run to the water source that often, but these would be nice items to have, imo 

[Gavin 971]

I'm also one of the guys with alot of cash to spend, And no where to spend it... Upkeep is fine and there's no need to dump it in there, Allready got twigs res stones and amulets...

If there was more items that are nifty, With profits going to the king i'm sure i would buy some of them, Some thing's Rara has mentioned sound good.

I think alot of the people dubbed as "Money Hoarders" don't  want to hoard money, But at the same time don't exactly want to throw it down the drain.

I think you should make a few more items like wallets that lat you carry coins and maybe keys around, But it will only add .25kg to your inventory, Even if you are holding say 3kg of coins and keys in it.. A quiver that has 50% chance to keep the arrows in it upon death (Stacks with res stone/mag 70+ faith bonus). Probe that lets you know how far Rock/water level is down..

One thing i think would be awesome and would suggest the most: A wand that will tell you the exact QL of a vein or rock tile. This does not give you any real advantage since a high miner could just mine a few times to check. But i think this would save alot of time. I think this should also perform a instant prospecting action (With no skillgain), But it would work exactly the same as you would prospect with a pickaxe, Giving you the same message.. Im not talking a thing that gives you what you can get at 99 prospecting at 0

Just small things like that can make alot of difference. But i agree nothing that will unbalance PVP too much.

[milp 1]

We should get 1 or 2 of those suggested items at max. Afterall wurm should still be the game where a player can make 99.99% of everything himself if he has the skills for it and doesn't have to rely on npc traders for everything.

[Miggy 5]

Been asking for a way to "store" sleep bonus for a long time.

An hourglass, costing 10s, which can have you turn your sleep bonus on/off. You still can't hold any more than 5h at once, but you can stop using it for a while, for instance if you're waiting for your forge to heat.

[Wossoo 1,915]

Been asking for a way to "store" sleep bonus for a long time.

An hourglass, costing 10s, which can have you turn your sleep bonus on/off. You still can't hold any more than 5h at once, but you can stop using it for a while, for instance if you're waiting for your forge to heat.

[Erazor 0]

We need disposable items or we'll have the same problem in a month again.

A wand with limited uses that perhaps allows you to water trees / farms for 1 stage growth per use (a wand having 99ql?). 10 silver?

.... more ideas later.. need food .

[Gavin 971]

I dont think anything suggested in this thread so far requires limited uses, Just give them really high prices. Even if it's only 10s if it's limited uses people get turned off buying them.

It's not like its something that is going to severely unbalance the game if they do have unlimited uses.

[Guest Khalid]

Maybe instead of limited uses, limited uses in X time, so buying 1 watering wand at 10s gives you 1 water in X time, but buying two for 10s each gives you 2 uses in X time. At the end of the time limit they would "recharge" and be usable again. Also, Mark/Recall beacons. Mark one somewhere and be able to use a 30 second ability to be "Recalled" to the spot. Make them 1 use each but cheaper. Also, to avoid exploiting, have any kind of damage stop the process, have it only usable in your domain etc. Also, make them destroyable. There's my input.

[Erazor 0]

I dont think anything suggested in this thread so far requires limited uses, Just give them really high prices. Even if it's only 10s if it's limited uses people get turned off buying them.

It's not like its something that is going to severely unbalance the game if they do have unlimited uses.

[raraavis 0]

I dont think anything suggested in this thread so far requires limited uses, Just give them really high prices. Even if it's only 10s if it's limited uses people get turned off buying them.

It's not like its something that is going to severely unbalance the game if they do have unlimited uses.

u fail at economics.

The people who have figured out how to make/farm money will continue to do so once the traders have money again. So even if they buy a 1 time item now for 50 silver, eventually that money will find its way back into the pockets of the person who spent it, doing NOTHING to stimulate the flow of the economy. 

It would be the same as giving everyone with a bankroll of at least 50 silver the item for free.. just fast forward a month or so.

Items with limited uses pretty much guarantee that they will keep on getting bought, giving players who desire the continued use of such items a reason to work for money.  ... and all of a sudden you got a flowing economy.

Just a big warning on Rolf if he implements any new items like this .... He better make sure he doesn't make the same mistake he did with farwalker twigs/stones by allowing the traders to keep the money, thus being farmed.  Just a heads up

Or more cash for those you called "money farmers". To simplify the presented reasoning, isntead of one time injection, money farmers would get a constant flow of coins at their traders, since "players who desire the continued use of such items" will buy them more and more...

And "money farmers" don't buy such items since they play for... money farming, right?

Economics, you say? failure? don't be so quick here. Everything is about one word: balance.

[Erazor 0]

Or more cash for those you called "money farmers". To simplify the presented reasoning, isntead of one time injection, money farmers would get a constant flow of coins at their traders, since "players who desire the continued use of such items" will buy them more and more...

And "money farmers" don't buy such items since they play for... money farming, right?

Economics, you say? failure? don't be so quick here. Everything is about one word: balance.

Point taken ... However, if there is indeed more circulation in the market it presents greater opportunity for those not-so-well off to tap into the market.

Eventually, yes .. the rich get richer, the poor get poorer - always been that way in RL, unless u have gov't intervention (not saying thats a good thing). 

Generally thou, if you are talking about items that only the rich would buy, then they are the ones spending the money on a continuous basis and yes, farming it back in, but it presents opportunity for the poorer members of wurm society who don't buy those leet items to leech off a small %. Afterall, the kings money is split amongst all traders, right? So the same person can't necessarily get his money back right away.

I've always been fond of a system that would limit the amount of money a player could drain off of a trader - a set limit per week or so (a few silver?). That way there is some limited ability to get money the 'easy' way by draining traders, but those who really want to build up wealth would have to do it via actual trade.  Something like this would actually work now with no non-prem alts.

As for village upkeep, traders could still be drained, except every villager would have to do his bit of draining to contribute to the fund, isntead of 1 person.

This would also open up more traders to the public, instead of individuals (typically mayors) locking them up in some secret room as their 'pot of gold'.

Speaking of traders ... wouldn't it be awesome if they were actually a interconnected trader systems? Ergo.. u sell something to trader A, and within a random amount of hours (so it can't be abused as a 'cheap' mailbox, pref 24+ hours), it shows up for sale in every other trader B, C, D, etc... A 'global' market.

[raraavis 0]

Yes, i wanted to show you that there isn't "one good" approach; in economics too

There is no reason for limiting any progress here, by keeping up with "it has to have limited uses" policy. It's nice that we both agree, that we need more items to buy, in order to stimulate money flow, but we need to be aware of that there will always be "money farmers" and making all new items limited uses don't even touch this problem.

If economy is a big funnel, where all funds sink, then it doesn't matter if they sink regularly in small amounts or once in a big chunk. When the destination is always the open hands of those who are "enterprising". Right? 

If we agree (Rolf actually...) that the best pros vs. cons ratio has "limited uses only" option, then i could think of "decaying" sollution. Just as lanterns decay in your inventory, the same way, some special items could decay in similair way over time.  This would allow implementing a more wide range of special items, not just "double click and use" ones.

But still, i think that master lightweigth featers draining one big chunk of silvers located in ppl pocket and redistributing it back via traders is not so bad, in theory

[Erazor 0]

If we agree (Rolf actually...) that the best pros vs. cons ratio has "limited uses only" option, then i could think of "decaying" sollution. Just as lanterns decay in your inventory, the same way, some special items could decay in similair way over time.  This would allow implementing a more wide range of special items, not just "double click and use" ones.

That is one excellent idea. The irony, thou, is that its also 'limited' use .  Thing is... it should also decay while in ones inventory... like meals (just way slower).

Essentially what we have then is someone buying the 'license' for a certain period of time to use an item. I like your feather idea (well, the master feather may be extreme), and if it were to decay over time it would most certainly be an interesting item to buy.

[raraavis 0]

If we agree (Rolf actually...) that the best pros vs. cons ratio has "limited uses only" option, then i could think of "decaying" sollution. Just as lanterns decay in your inventory, the same way, some special items could decay in similair way over time.  This would allow implementing a more wide range of special items, not just "double click and use" ones.

That is one excellent idea. The irony, thou, is that its also 'limited' use .  Thing is... it should also decay while in ones inventory... like meals (just way slower).

Yes, that was my reasoning. If the "limited use" thingy is a must, then in order to introduce a variety of special items, we could make it like described before. Because i believe that "lightwieght feather" giving you -5kg bonus for 30 seconds after double clickign it or something like that would render such item useless...

[Gavin 971]

Bumping this up a bit since it's fairly far down the list

Another idea i had: 10s 'Locksmith's Wand' which will tell you the exact QL of a lock on any chest or door or whatever, You can allready rightclick > examine and get a message that will show you a good rough value of the lock, Therefor this isnt really unbalancing or anything, But at the same time is a nice money sink

Small things like that that dont really give all that much benefit people would buy in the masses. For example that vein QL checker i proposed, You only need 20 prospecting to get a similar reading which takes a day at the most of slow grinding, But again saves time

Just refrain from having anything that speeds up action times, Or skill gain.. Or anything that unbalances the game in favour of the rich like that.

[milp 1]

We should get 1 or 2 of those suggested items at max. Afterall wurm should still be the game where a player can make 99.99% of everything himself if he has the skills for it and doesn't have to rely on npc traders for everything.

I'll just have to quote this again, because it seems to me that after all the suggestions for buy-only items, you forget that wurm should really be that place where stuff is made by players :x

Maybe one or 2 items would be nice to have and good for the economy (I'm really not sure what's good for the economy, i suck at this topic ) but much of what was suggested (like the doorlock wand or the one growth stage thing) could just be made a spell for a fo or a mag or a libilan priest for example.

[Raffeh 15]

Maybe instead of limited uses, limited uses in X time, so buying 1 watering wand at 10s gives you 1 water in X time, but buying two for 10s each gives you 2 uses in X time. At the end of the time limit they would "recharge" and be usable again. Also, Mark/Recall beacons. Mark one somewhere and be able to use a 30 second ability to be "Recalled" to the spot. Make them 1 use each but cheaper. Also, to avoid exploiting, have any kind of damage stop the process, have it only usable in your domain etc. Also, make them destroyable. There's my input.

Or Just put a Decay rate on the item, so they can only have the item for say.. a month or 2 and can use it as many times as they want in that time...

[Erazor 0]

We should get 1 or 2 of those suggested items at max. Afterall wurm should still be the game where a player can make 99.99% of everything himself if he has the skills for it and doesn't have to rely on npc traders for everything.

I'll just have to quote this again, because it seems to me that after all the suggestions for buy-only items, you forget that wurm should really be that place where stuff is made by players :x

Maybe one or 2 items would be nice to have and good for the economy (I'm really not sure what's good for the economy, i suck at this topic ) but much of what was suggested (like the doorlock wand or the one growth stage thing) could just be made a spell for a fo or a mag or a libilan priest for example.

And i agree with you when it comes to having most things player made.. less magical bullpoop.   But if one doesn't envigorate the economy with disposable purchasable trader items, then the only other way to do it is to have individual limits for each player on traders. ... or other similar means of limiting the draining of trader by just a few people. Such a system would allow each player, who is somewhat motivated, to get his weekly 'allowance/paycheck' and spend it on the economy.

As said before, such a method would encourage the trade of player made items as players who like selling things will try to get the money the others have 'earned'.  If an economy is much more fluent and money is 'easy' to come by, then participents in the economy are a lot more eager to spend it too, instead of hoarding it.  We all hold on to our last '5 silver' because we don't know if we need it in an 'emergency'. However, if i know that i can make X items, run to a trader and get at least X amount of silver a 'week?' ... then yea.. i'm more eager to spend what i already have ...

[milp 1]

We should get 1 or 2 of those suggested items at max. Afterall wurm should still be the game where a player can make 99.99% of everything himself if he has the skills for it and doesn't have to rely on npc traders for everything.

I'll just have to quote this again, because it seems to me that after all the suggestions for buy-only items, you forget that wurm should really be that place where stuff is made by players :x

Maybe one or 2 items would be nice to have and good for the economy (I'm really not sure what's good for the economy, i suck at this topic ) but much of what was suggested (like the doorlock wand or the one growth stage thing) could just be made a spell for a fo or a mag or a libilan priest for example.

And i agree with you when it comes to having most things player made.. less magical bullpoop.   But if one doesn't envigorate the economy with disposable purchasable trader items, then the only other way to do it is to have individual limits for each player on traders. ... or other similar means of limiting the draining of trader by just a few people. Such a system would allow each player, who is somewhat motivated, to get his weekly 'allowance/paycheck' and spend it on the economy.

As said before, such a method would encourage the trade of player made items as players who like selling things will try to get the money the others have 'earned'.  If an economy is much more fluent and money is 'easy' to come by, then participents in the economy are a lot more eager to spend it too, instead of hoarding it.  We all hold on to our last '5 silver' because we don't know if we need it in an 'emergency'. However, if i know that i can make X items, run to a trader and get at least X amount of silver a 'week?' ... then yea.. i'm more eager to spend what i already have ...

Remove kingdom traders alltogether and give a player who is member of a deed 5s per bought month of premium, or something like that :/

Thats a silly suggestion again, but you can always either have some of the following, not all:

- Statisfied playerbase

- A lot of money bought from the shop

- Happy players that can support their deeds without spending more money than they have

- a working economy

[raraavis 0]

10 size deed is 100s. You can fill it with 40 alts on the home server which will get you 200s per month. Pure interest 

edit: i see you edited your post a bit

Also if you do not keep "the 5s", since you know you will get another 5s soon, the 5s you have have low/lower value to you. And of course to the guy who could give you something for that 5s.

In sum, any strict redistributing ideas turned out to be a total failures IRL (for those here who like RL history analogies    )  and i doubt it would be any different in wurm.

[Guest kingdarkx]

I think the problem with the traders is:

The people who have money don't want most of the stuff a trader sells.

The people who want the stuff a trader sells don't have money.

You all probably know this. Or get out of this topic

Maybe we shouldn't have money redistributed but when a trader buys stuff, some money he adds to his wealth, some is tax for the village and some disappears "He's gotta eat".

Also, make them not want items they "think" (programmed) aren't likely to sell. (Like jewellery)

[MetalDragon 1,630]

Kingdark, a set amount of money that a trader gets is returned to the 'king'. The rest is redistributed.

[Guest Khalid]

Mayhaps we could turf traders. The main uses for them (at least on home) is to help with upkeep (village JS empties it and puts it back into upkeep) and some money for new players (The ones that follow you around and pick the junk up you drop while hunting) Instead, keep merchants, but lose traders. People rarely every buy stuff from traders, and those who do buy things like Chisels, Fishing Rods, Hammers etc. that you can earn/make in other ways. I know this is gonna take some negative shots, but try to see this point of view. No traders=More money bought from shop=Rolf gets more money=Game gets more stuff=Those of use who haven't gone to QQ about losing traders are happy.

[SwedishPhoenix 12]

1.

-lightweight feathers. They weight: -4kg. Cost: ~10s

-master lightweight feathers: They weight: -12kg. Cost: ~50s

They do not stack.

2. "Neverdrying" watersking.

A water skin that uses reversed water bar algorithm. Waterskin is autofilling itself, with the half speed (or quarter speed) your water bar is losing water. Means you cannot rely on it completelly, but in hard situations like beign lost in the desert/forrest with no water source, it would make thigns easier.

Copycat, suggested almost the exact thing back at the trinket contest 

Though, my "neverdrying" waterskin was a small bead that would replenish whatever liquid inside the container you put it in. A bead in a barrel of wine, a bead in a fountain of water etc.

Another thing I would pay money for would be a marker with a compass, and the compass would point to where you dropped the marker. The compass would be non-drop but not the marker. Could drop a marker if you are near death, find a spawn or something in a dense forest etc.