"Real 3D Terraforming" / Transition to Voxels? / Just Stupid Visions ;)

[Jindala 6]

Heya!

 

In a Nutshell

 

I would like to suggest to massively increase creative possibilities by overcoming some current limitations:

• only one tunnel or vein at any given position of the world
• no overhanging rock tiles or alike are possible, opposing limits to designing (at first) and transforming (later) the world
• no buildings above buildings, bridges above bridges or through buildings, and so on
• no water above ocean level (seems related though not necessarily dependent in the same way)

My understanding is that this would mean to transition to something like a voxel-based world instead of the current system which was described to me as using something like layered height-maps (?).

 

Where this is coming from ...

 

I'm like Retrograde described it: I know best what Wurm needs albeit only being here for a bit over a year (I really missed like a decade of Wurms existance unfortunately) and I have the urge to draw your attention to it ;-) That said, this didn't occur to me just now and I'm not typing this in the first rush. In the opposite, I have talked about it with players many times and my impression from that was "it's just supposed to be this way". I basically assumed this must have been discussed. The reason why I'm writing this is, that I did not find any on point discussion about it albeit searching for forums and reading like a ton of things to check. Some threads from many years ago touched it or dealt with some aspect of it (one was "tunnels through dirt" or so from 2009 iirc). One of the answers was on the lines of "the engine will never support that" :P But that was like a decade ago also, so let's try this ...

 

Origin/Example: 7dtd

 

Now, I had played 7 days to die (7dtd) before, which is called "voxel-based" and whoever is interested in what I'm talking about but doesn't know it: I would encourage you to maybe check some videos of it focusing on this aspect of the game-world there. But I'll try to describe it shortly in the following as what I describe here wasn't invented by me but rather is based on my experience from playing that game. It seems to mean the world is composed of blocks (think of cubic-meter blocks). So instead of tiles (which beneath reach down to the bottom layer where the world ends), you would have a number of blocks below you, which can individually be modified. Take (mine) some out to make a tunnel to run through, for example. Concerning the generated landscape you do not see blocks, though, i.e. it doesn't look like Minecraft if that's what you are thinking now. For the purpose of this discussion we can say "it looks like Wurm" instead ;) The client probably smoothes out corners/type transitions for display? When mining out blocks they diminish gradually before going poof. So you can mine out a block "halfway" or dig down a block "halfway" and it will go back/down accordingly, still without looking like a block.

 

They use the same "technique" above ground as well, though, so to say. So you build a building out of blocks that you "drop" on the ground and then on the previous block etc. You can attach (certain) blocks horizontally without another block below them in that. If you build something without support from below structural integrity is checked and if not given (anymore), the blocks will fall down (cave-ins, parts of buildings, your bridge, etc.). This means you can make houses and bridges however you like, but got to watch that they don't fall apart due to that. Together with decay that could be an awesome thing ;) These "built" things can very much do show their block-composition (in the opposite to "ground blocks/tiles") then, depending what kinds of blocks a player uses. They have like hundreds of block-shapes though. That includes blocks where what you actually see is not filling the whole block, e.g. a pillar in the middle of the block to be filled. Which have the fundamental problem then, though, that they cannot be moved (like our placing) and they always "occupy" the whole block, i.e. no other block (second pillar) could be dropped there but would land on top of it instead. Most "items" like chests are also blocks and that opposes limitations that Wurm doesn't have btw. (stacking containers and alike).

 

Motivation, Relevance, and Effort

 

So something as proposed has at least technically been done already (although not for MMO scales?) and this voxel-based approach provides a much (much) bigger degree of freedom on what the players can do (by transforming the world, but also by building things - and by having them crushing down if not careful). It's "a totally different world" (haha ...). Now degree of freedom - or in other words: the sandboxyness of Wurm - at least to me seems to be "the big thing" about it ("Ultimate Sandbox" and all). Accordingly I assume this would make Wurm better at it's very core so to say. Personally I would say it's the one thing that I experience as limiting (too much) all the time. Hence the idea: bring this to Wurm.

 

Now, this might sound like "start from scratch" stuff, but I'm bringing this up because I hope this can be done in parts/gradually in a way. Like using the current graphics and building system of Wurm and only transforming the world-composition, i.e. "ground types" as a start. In the end you would still see the world as it is now basically (in terms of what is getting rendered). Just (eh ..) what it's based on would change? Of course getting more degrees of freedom above ground feels desirable in this context. But that might add a ton to the effort needed (although not sure, aren't models/textures the work-intensive part?). So maybe finding a way to make the underground this way could be a first step to get this journey started (not needing the rest). And as cave-ins sound difficult as well, a simplified version (just can't mine there because it would lead to a cave-in) and alike might also be possible.  How to adjust buildings/bridges to fully accommodate to this could be a different phase then maybe, for a start they could just check for upper planes of the cubes as they do now for tiles or so? Finally adding water flows (they did/tried that in 7dtd too btw., but last I checked I was pretty messy) probably would need to be a totally separate (big) thing anyways, due to rain/drainage/flooding considerations, the graphics, and so on.

 

My Conclusion

 

I dunno, most of this is (hopefully educated) guessing on a thin basis. However it feels like a thing to "see Wurm in the future", a vision so to say. I would even imagine people being willing to start over on a new server for some ground-breaking changes like this despite the need to spend another decade to train up those skills ;) Although transferring the complete population of a cluster to a new one could do the trick as well - keeping "skill balance" amongst them and "just" (ehm ...) needing the new building efforts then. Anyhow, it's a big thing, ya. To me, one I'd really really would like to see getting started. And I assume the team behind Wurm must have the experience to bring this to an MMO scale - maybe more than anyone else even? So maybe it could help Wurm be the "ultimate sandbox" for the decades to come? :) Just felt like I need to get this "officially" said, hope this isn't a waste of anyone's time (aside from mine).

[Archaed 2,284]

While this has a lot of well thought out reasoning, it's not something that's possible, it's asking to redesign the game from the very foundations, on a completely brand new engine, with totally different mechanics. 

 

The amount of work it would take would be in the years, and that's while not doing anything in the existing game. 

 

Voxels are great and all, but it's not what would help the game at all honestly in my opinion, it's making a completely Different game 

[Jindala 6]

54 minutes ago, Archaed said:

While this has a lot of well thought out reasoning, it's not something that's possible, it's asking to redesign the game from the very foundations, on a completely brand new engine, with totally different mechanics. 

 

The amount of work it would take would be in the years, and that's while not doing anything in the existing game. 

 

Voxels are great and all, but it's not what would help the game at all honestly in my opinion, it's making a completely Different game 

 

Thank you for taking the time! And hm, while your name doesn't have special coloring you seem kind of official. Remembered your name and just checked what kind of stuff you are posting ;) So can I take this as an (at least kind of) official "won't fix" for now then?

 

Pointless to argue if you know the code/dependencies or how it has been discussed behind the scenes. As mentioned I assumed it must have been a topic at some point. But otherwise I would start how it doesn't need to be voxels as in 7dtd or how a compatibility layer for something like those seems possible, and probably other irrelevant thoughts of a guy that has never even done games yet really. Just had a first look at Godot though ;)

[Archaed 2,284]

Oh I'm absolutely not official, I'm just a guy with a gif avatar crying for attention or something. 

 

I used to be, but I'm the opposite now, but this isn't a new idea, because a lot of people see the same potential as you too! 

[Jindala 6]

I see now how this has been kind of discussed in various threads in TownSquare - not in Ideas (I had limited my searches to that before). Making a sad face now, though, because all doesn't sound promising while I still think it's gonna be the next thing. And I would so prefer to have it Wurm :) But ya, when reading that multi-story buildings are basically a big hack by themselves already, I kind of started to grasp how more much than what I assumed might need to be changed/redone. Like if trying to manage chaos, and someone comes and says "just sort it" ;) What's left on options then probably wouldn't belong here but in TownSquare as well. So thx for helping me understand that and sry about the fuzz - I just failed hard on the research part here :(

[TheTrickster 2,290]

This is essentially, "Son of Wurm"  or "Wurm 2".  Building the game again from the start as an entirely new program based on the best current technology.  

 

Would be wonderful, but is a massive undertaking.  I think what it would take is some third party to decide that it would be worth acquiring the rights to do this, but I don't think the current income stream would justify it.