Xanadu Grand Compromise

[hankrearden 144]

The Grand Compromise

(Or A Treatise on Mailboxes)

 

 

Fresh Start or Everyone Invited?

The main reason (as i see it) for people wanting a fresh start server is a more equal distribution of sales revenue from crafted items.  The idea is that a more inclusive economy (lots of sellers at different skills) will capture the interest of more new players, thus increasing the new player retention rate.  The current mailing system (particularly on a large server) creates a winner take all system, in which the best crafter(s) will get the lions share of the sales.  Take away the mailboxes, and the transport costs take away the uber crafters comparative advantage.  The effects will be greater the larger the server.  This would make a sort of 'Grand Compromise", allowing old accounts on the server, while giving new accounts more market share in the selling of crafted items.

 

Mail or No Mail?

Admittedly, mailboxes are a great convenience we all love and rely on.  The question is, does the benefit of a more inclusive economy outweigh the costs of cheap item transfers over long distances?  For servers the size of Indy and smaller, i would say the costs of no mail outweigh the benefits.  For a much larger server, I could say the benefits outweighing the hassle of no mail boxes.

 

Restrictions on Mail

Furthermore, it does not need to a be choice between mail or no mail.  Restrictions to the mail system could accomplish the goal of a more inclusive economy.  For starters, the mail price of 10-20 copper might be too small for a server the size of Xanadu.  A higher mailing fee would encourage more local trading, and could be adjusted often to meet the goals/desires of the DEVS.  A second approach would be to tie the mailing cost to the distance between mailboxes.  A Third approach would be to limit the range a mailbox covers, say 2k -4k tiles, or perhaps make that range depend on the strength of the enchant of the mailbox.

 

Practical Matters

Rolf is very adamant about not splitting up code between servers, so whatever will be good for Xanadu will need to be implemented on the existing servers.  So the complete removal of the mail system sounds like a political dead end.  Limiting the range a mailbox can cover could be feasible.  If the limit was 4k tiles, existing servers would see no effect, although I personally feel that range would be too large for a very inclusive economy on Xanadu, but limiting that range by cast strength (that decays with use)  would alleviate some of that.  The idea of mail cost being a function of distance is a bit more practical.  An example would be 10c to mail the first 3k tiles and the price would double (10c, 20, 40, 80, 160...) for each additional 1k tiles.  The easiest idea to implement from the devs point of view (uneducated guess) would be a flat increase in mailing cost.  This would not require any additional computations, and could seemingly be adjusted often until the desired effect was reached.  The major downside is the uproar from the existing servers would be rather severe.

[hankrearden 144]

This thread is expanding on the idea brought up by Ecrir in this thread http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/99736-a-look-at-xanadu-in-light-of-pr-launch/page-2

 

Also i am sure there are some other ideas out there to create a more inclusive economy on Xanadu while allowing the migration of current accounts, lets hear them.

[enoofu 206]

Wouldn't it be easier to make a new server if this new one works, by snapshot the freedom server cluster together and adding random islands to fill it in and grandfather multiple deed ownership 

[Gypsy 138]

This thread is expanding on the idea brought up by Ecrir in this thread http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/99736-a-look-at-xanadu-in-light-of-pr-launch/page-2

 

Also i am sure there are some other ideas out there to create a more inclusive economy on Xanadu while allowing the migration of current accounts, lets hear them.

 

I saw that comment and thought it was kind of cool. Regionality! It would be a drastic change but I kinda like drastic change.

 

Changes to the mail system would fix a bunch of perceived problems. P/R would be less scared of connection. Celebration people wouldn't have to drastically lower prices because someone on an older server decides to undercut by a nutty margin that is way outside of the norm (and before you get mad by that comment, consider that there are new crafters dismayed by what even 2 yr players have to charge to compete with someone on Indy/Deli + mail charge - PM me, I'll give an example). 

 

This could be a really simple fix to a LOT of concerns. TBH I haven't thought on the actual suggestion's numbers. Will reread. No matter what though, I think changes to the mail system that lead to regionality would be positive for all servers.

 

and of course - discalimer - in no way representing opinions of anyone not me. 

[Jeixi 146]

I understand the op's point about the economy not being inclusive. I'm being excluded from the economy entirely pretty much, except for maybe when I buy and resale a supreme/rare in the market for a marginal profit. I chose to play a Fo priest on my main, without using alts to get around the limitations of being a priest. The only thing people want from me is mailbox enchants, but they don't want to pay much for that. When it comes to linking, all the other Fo priests would apparently rather pay premium for two Fo priest alts than bother communicating with a nearby, friendly Fo priest who drives/sails by their homes regularly anyways and would be happy to link for much less. Basically, I feel like I'm being punished for playing a priest the way it was supposed to be played, and trying to be social. Meanwhile these anti-social priests with tons of cash just keep paying Rolf for their batteries. Add in the fact there are maybe three weaponsmiths total on my server, all in cahoots with the altaholic priests, and I'm basically screwed even if I level up an alt battery. In order to compete in the market on Celebration, I'd need to make three alts. Three!!! No wonder I find myself logging into Wurm less and less.

[Sevenless 385]

Although I think the winner take all crafter style is an issue for encouraging casual/middle skill players to continue playing, I don't think simply eliminating the mailing system or reducing it's efficiency is the answer. Also the power = range thing goes right back to your original issue of the richest players getting the most benefit.

 

If we want to replace the mailing system, we'd need to empower players to work together in the delivery/transport of goods. I'd put my vote behind a contract system with escrow involved. Probably delivering to/from an object/structure which specializes in creating these contracts. It would also open up the profession of mailman which has been tried occasionally by players (but with limited applications due to how simple the mailing system is already).

 

Without additional hard coded support, removing/gimping mailboxes would hurt player experience more than it would benefit anyone in my eyes.

 

Also shouldn't this be in the suggestions forum?

[fatboy 448]

-1 No.

[Kegan 3,926]

If i could not get a quick tool sent to me in the mail i would just not buy it personally. 

Edited April 13, 2014 by Kegan

[Ayes 3,715]

The main reason (as i see it) for people wanting a fresh start server is a more equal distribution of sales revenue from crafted items.

 

Wrong! This reason is why Crafters who sell their items to other players are wanting a fresh start on new servers, those who actively pursue this anyway. To then further nerf the mailing system as you suggest to benefit this minor portion of the player base giving them preferential treatment to the inconvenience of the rest of the player base is a rather arrogant suggestion.

 

Players will purchase their items from the crafters who they prefer to purchase them from. To try to structure the mailing system to deny others from having this option would be a blatant attempt to control the market in this manner by reducing the possibility that others would purchase items from either their preferred crafter or purely for the lowest price available, due to the inconvenience imposed by extended travel time because of your suggestion on further mailbox restrictions.

 

As the mailbox system is structured at present with restrictions on mailing certain items this actually has a negative effect on crafters because it reduces their market for both selling and imping items. Even on Independence there is no way I will adjust my schedule to meet the crafter at a certain time and then travel one hour or more just to have them improve my 2 handed sword, whereas before the mailbox nerf I was just able to mail it to them to improve it. Also there are certain items I would like to purchase from other crafters per their ad on the forums that I can not purchase without traveling to their other server because these items can't be mailed. My solution then is to not buy them, which in turn reduces their market for them and makes crafting not as profitable for crafters.

 

Also, there are certain players that I would never purchase any items from or use their imping services even if their perimeter were right next to my own. So your suggestion of short travel distances being any sort of solution to contribute to a controlled local market monopoly is even flawed in this respect. I see no "grand compromise" with what you have presented here, nor one of any sort really. This is just a rather thinly veiled attempt to monopolize the crafting market in certain local areas due to the inconvenience of having to travel extended distances otherwise. While it is true that Xanadu would suit this purpose perfectly, it doesn't in turn justify this attempt to restrict the market for goods that would otherwise be available for players to choose according to price structure and their preferred crafter located in other more distant points and servers.

 

Your post here only brings to the forefront the inadequacies of the current mailing system and how it needs to be reworked to enable the mailing of all crafted items to broaden their market by making the selling and imping of them available to all of the player base without needing to spend excessive travel times just for this purpose. Dev's please fix the mailing system to benefit the player base as a whole rather than the select few in a reduced market as this individual would suggest for their own benefit.

 

=Ayes=

[atazs 965]

No. Remove all mailing restrictions and allow us to mail every item. 

[Crack 408]

See, i like the concept of no mail, people could set up an organize their own mail service for the server especially one the size of Xanadu, but tbh i believe that removing mailing on the old servers would be pointless and foolish

[Eyesgood 2,121]

One Server to Hold them all...

 

2009..... Remember?

[Hussars 511]

See, i like the concept of no mail, people could set up an organize their own mail service for the server especially one the size of Xanadu, but tbh i believe that removing mailing on the old servers would be pointless and foolish

While I agree, to take this a step further, the only way a system reliant on other players for delivery works is if everyone is playing on the same schedule (or are willing to adjust their play times) and that you have enough of these "middlemen" to keep the service running.

 

The more reliant a group is on a bottleneck structure, the more likely there will be a catastrophic failure of that system.  Look at any real world shipping/delivery system, when any one part breaks down (say a port closes in protest of something) trade stops until an alternate shipping route is found.  There tend to be enough options to limp along, but with very little organization, it's possible to cripple the system.

 

Like when the ports closed in Oakland Ca.

[atazs 965]

One Server to Hold them all...

 

2009..... Remember?

Not really because there were 3 

[Lancelot 765]

oh for chrissakes sort out this bloody mailing issue !

[EliasTheCrimson 348]

I'd support a complete nerf of the mailing system in order to promote local markets rather than a low-priced globalized market if it wasn't for the troubling issue that people would likely buy a lot less. A market ruled by high-end crafters is marginally better than a market without much transactions at all.

Edited April 13, 2014 by EliasTheCrimson

[enoofu 206]

Only thing i hate of the mail system is that mailing letters is difficult

[As_I_Decay 1,592]

Mailboxes don't need removal, they need to be fixed so that you can actually send things.

-1 for this suggestion on Xanadu or anywhere else.

[As_I_Decay 1,592]

Not really because there were 3 

It was actually 2008, not 09 like he keeps claiming. Anyway, it was only 1 server at that time (Indy) that JKh and MRh merged to.

[Eyesgood 2,121]

It was actually 2008, not 09 like he keeps claiming. Anyway, it was only 1 server at that time (Indy) that JKh and MRh merged to.

 

Eyesgood

Member Since 22 May 2009

 

It was 2009 my friend.  I know because it was just after I started playing Wurm on JKH.  Inde opened in 2009, not 2008.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Eyesgood

[Lancelot 765]

Thats what happens Atasz when a foreign owner takes control of a well known established company. But anyway, uh, yeah, why can't we mail weapons across server eh ? I am hoping, that if the monster that is Xanadu is made live, then first and foremost, it IS connected to the existing cluster. Secondly, while I'm here on Wild/Chaos, I'd like to be able to service my 'customers' that is, the people that have supported me in game. 

[enoofu 206]

I hope its not connected, the old freedom cluster should be getting Release and Pristine soon

 

 

 

Does anyone really thing after a few months that people will not come back to the other servers?

Edited April 14, 2014 by enoofu

[hankrearden 144]

I'd support a complete nerf of the mailing system in order to promote local markets rather than a low-priced globalized market if it wasn't for the troubling issue that people would likely buy a lot less. A market ruled by high-end crafters is marginally better than a market without much transactions at all.

 

I actually believe that trade would increase if there existed many small monopolies as a opposed to a few large ones.  It is similar to the real world principles involved in income inequality.  In the case where a small fraction of people have a large fraction of income, overall demand is lower.  this is due to people with large incomes re-spending a smaller portion of their income (marginal propensity to consume) than would someone with a small income.  An uber crafter needs only so many other tools from the general marketplace, in which it is likely that any extra coin will be used for premium or saved (hoarded) until it can be sold via paypal.  In a situation in which there are many smaller, less uber crafters, more of their income is likely to be re-spent (think money multiplier) acquiring things they need from the general market place, which increases overall demand.

 

If i did a crappy job of explaining the idea of 'marginal propensity to consume' and money multipliers, then these wikipedia links should get the point across.

 

Money multiplier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_multiplier

Marginal propensity to consume:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_propensity_to_consume

[Ursine 6]

Frankly if you keep the mailing system as is you might as well have an Auction house ala WoW. Global, instant and completely immersion breaking in Wurm.  Don't get me wrong the convenience is nice, but the down side is it torpedo's any market or localized skill set.   Now with the mail system the servers never need more than a half dozen of any trade and anything that isn't 20QL less than server max is garbage and can't be sold. 

 

With no mail system a server needs a specialty crafter every 30 minutes of travel time in all directions.  This forces people to get to know each other and may enable goods to have values based on demand that include real transport costs.  We get more crafters, farmers and ranchers if the change is made and I think it would be a step in the right direction.  

 

When was wurm about anything other than the sense of pride you have when you make something just the way you want it.  It was harder than it is now, I'd love for people to have the sense that a ql 50 item always has worth and 70 in the local market is the guy you need to trade with.  Further people could play as importers and ship goods around.  Imping/repairing would become a valued profession now.  

 

The idea that localized markets aren't a good thing is ludicrous.  It would recreate the need to have a market deed and make them viable.  With mail there's no need to go to the local market to see what's there and to see what need is unmet that you could fulfill if you had the inclination. 

[Kadore 926]

Frankly if you keep the mailing system as is you might as well have an Auction house ala WoW. Global, instant and completely immersion breaking in Wurm.  Don't get me wrong the convenience is nice, but the down side is it torpedo's any market or localized skill set.   Now with the mail system the servers never need more than a half dozen of any trade and anything that isn't 20QL less than server max is garbage and can't be sold. 

 

With no mail system a server needs a specialty crafter every 30 minutes of travel time in all directions.  This forces people to get to know each other and may enable goods to have values based on demand that include real transport costs.  We get more crafters, farmers and ranchers if the change is made and I think it would be a step in the right direction.  

 

When was wurm about anything other than the sense of pride you have when you make something just the way you want it.  It was harder than it is now, I'd love for people to have the sense that a ql 50 item always has worth and 70 in the local market is the guy you need to trade with.  Further people could play as importers and ship goods around.  Imping/repairing would become a valued profession now.  

 

The idea that localized markets aren't a good thing is ludicrous.  It would recreate the need to have a market deed and make them viable.  With mail there's no need to go to the local market to see what's there and to see what need is unmet that you could fulfill if you had the inclination. 

 Because walking for hours on end is as exciting as sailing for hours ... sometimes convenience needs to be added in equal doses to realism, and like all grand ideas to improve Wurm, you find in the end the economy stays the same whether its mailed or traveled to get an item, or a lesser amount of sales to people that have lives outside the game and not the time to devote to buy one object.