Traders. Broken or not?

[Cookiestomper 20]

Disclaimer: I will not state my personal opinion,. Instead I will try to resume your thoughts below. Keep it friendly. If you don't agree with a suggestion, leave a comment explaining why so I can add a note with drawbacks of th
It is up to Code Club to define the final implementation as they see fit, but a summarizing post might give some valuable feedback, no matter how dead this horse is.

Terribly sorry Seara and board mods, if a move back to suggestions is needed :/

 

The Issue:

One side proclaims:

There is nothing wrong with traders, you pay 50s to get a small (not a fountain) turnover each month, which you have to work arguably hard for. (by setting ratios, crafting items,...) Also, the game cost is high, so to be able to afford most items ingame a steady source of income like a trader is required. Traders can in a way also be considered as a lifetime subscription.

 

The other side says:

Free money (between 6-7s) each month for a 50s (12.5s immediately drainable) initial investment. The deed owners without traders pay for that free money, which is deemed unfair. Furthermore, it may be seen as hurting the low-end of the economy in the long run as coin is only recirculated to those that can afford it and non-trader owners will miss out.
The question that arises often from this side of the argument is: Why can't the kingdom pool be accessible by multiple means? (for instance by having goblin camps that can be raided for some coin) Selling to token is a nice addition, but leaves a lot of gaps to be really useful.

 

Also refering to Rolf's post: Feedback on Trader suggestion: http://forum.wurmonl...tion/?p=1001418, as pointed out by Ayes. Post was closed after 5 hours by Rolf with the following note:

 

Note - This thread has been closed with the following motivation:

Allright, thanks for your feedback. We've discussed it and decided not to change traders on existing servers for now since people are so accustomed to the system. We have some interesting ideas for more ways of money distribution that we may try.

 

Adressing the issue/Discussion:

(Summarizing suggestions and comments from you here)

1) Before the Change/Considerations

• Any change if not considered carefully, will have the potential to upset a large playerbase, as a lot of investments into the current system have been made. A solution that satisfies both sides should be sought and discussed.
• Adding onto the former point, A lot of people rely on traders for ingame income.
• Warn about changes a long time (10ish months) in advance so the recently placed traders can earn their worth back. Or do not wait and reimburse investments. Or disallow placing of traders (under old system) and diminish returns of the existing ones gradually.
• Do not include traders under the old system on the new servers. Xanadu is a chance to change things without upsetting players.
• Multiple premium characters may be needed for a full game experience, so there is a high need for silver, which traders provide to a disputed degree.
• The sale of accounts provides economic difficulties.
• Decrease upkeep cost, or game cost in general (is this feasable for the devs? This seems to be important to many.) Traders are a secondary need because of high game cost. Make it easier to afford ingame items.
• It may be counter intuitive to have a money redistribution system owned by players.
• New redistribution functions should be fair to all playstyles (crafters, hunters,..)

2) Additions to status quo

• Add items worth buying. (Mirrors, Name changes, starter kit)
• Make merchants also sell trader items if traders are removed
• Allow option to enforce ratio (trader stops buying if under ratio)
• Global cap on what can be drained from traders. (per player, per trader, total lifetime...)

3) Suggested minor changes

• Make traders player owned, not (only) deed owned. Traders will not receive funds if owner is not premium, maximum payout per month is 10s to prevent abuse.
• Remove traders leaving upon disband of deed.
• Increase useability of the current token selling system (Use a trade/container screen to sell, Limit by day instead of hour, block by IP?)
• Make it easier to browse marketplaces (Local screen for merchants instead of having to browse each individually f.i.)
• Rename traders to treasures and have them be more transparant about their returns.
• Possible chance roll (like the rare system) to receive money from the pool.
• Reduce trader cost by half or more
• Remove silver for premium option and let it be payed for by cash only, those funds could be used to decrease the cost of the game. Also add the option to gift premium to others.
• Change trader radius limit.

4) Suggested overhauls

• Auctioneers instead of traders - Vean (post #20 in Rolf's thread)
• Remove traders (possibly replace them by non player owned only versions)
• Monthly allowance for premium players, that can be collected from any trader.
• Let payouts be determined by number of unique trades, not coin ratio of sold/bought.
• Stop traders from handing back coin.

 

Edit 1: Cleared up some sections, added to disclaimer, added referral to Rolf's post.

Edit 2: Included the suggestions in Rolf's thread.

Edit 3: Added more suggestions, marked recurring ones in bold.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Cookiestomper

[Kegan 3,926]

They know about the problems with them but they are embedded in the game and a lot of players have money invested in the system so it has to be dealt with in a way that both sides are happy with the end results. That is not going to be easy they have to come up with a new system changing the way money gets distributed it is going to be a complete overhaul of the system and will take time. If not done right they could potentiality lose many players over it. 

Edited April 6, 2014 by Kegan

[Pingpong 1,070]

Rolf has stated he will be removing traders eventually, he's just trying to figure out how.

[Pwent 113]

You are sick of these kind of threads, but yet you are starting the 1000th thread on this topic??

This has been discussed to death so many times, please close this thread.

Rolf is already aware of the problem, and has stated in a public post in City Hall that he will change it for upcoming servers.

[KunAlt 844]

Either make a suggestion/idea or move the topic to Town Square?

[Seara 686]

Moved to appropriator area

[Cookiestomper 20]

Thanks Seara, The aim was to get suggestions flowing from both sides to help the developers out with a viable system, but I suppose this works in town square too. A secondary aim was to move the discussion off Freedom chat to a place where it will be easier for them to see.

[4neofclubs 97]

Yeah i think Ive read somewhere that the way traders are currently wasn't the way traders were intended originally.  So im sure it will be modified one way or another eventually.

[Kruggan 519]

"The deed owners without traders pay for that free money, which is deemed unfair."

 

First, none of what I'm about to say is directed at the OP.  

 

Sounds a lot like entitlement to me.  In fact it makes me sick to my stomach.  I'm so sick of that particular argument - made by the same people sitting at home collecting welfare checks while I work my ass off each week to pay for their cable TV.  Bottom line in my book... if you want a Trader, BUY one.  If you don't, then don't.  Either way, stop whining about it.  You want something?  Then invest in it - work for it.  What exactly entitles you to get the same benefit as someone who DID take a risk and invest  when you didn't?  Answer?  Nothing.  Stop your whining and either pony up the 50s and learn how to use them or DON'T.  I've never argued it's not a broken system.  It is broken.  If Rolf and team wants to fix it - then they can fix it... AND I'll live with it.  What I cannot tolerate however is the continuous whining from people that don't have Traders thinking they're automatically entitled to the same money that others took time and probably real money to invest in.  So the argument is that it's not fair?  Guess what - LIFE isn't fair.  Get over it.  

 

There's my 2 cents.  

[Ayes 3,715]

Here is the very strange thing I find about the post that Rolf made: Feedback on Trader suggestion: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/99182-feedback-on-trader-suggestion/?p=1001418

 

This post was made by him asking for suggestions concerning this at my local time: Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:17 AM and then locked by Rolf at: Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:04 AM.

 

I was actually in the process of posting a response there and while clicking to proofread it, was locked out. So it was up for responses for not even quite 5 hours before no further input was allowed. Quite strange indeed in its implications.

 

There have been a number of discussions about the Trader draining process and its impact upon the game. Since I see little new added to the subject, at the moment I will leave it to others to ponder the significance of the unusual circumstance mentioned above. Does the plot thicken or is the disguise starting to wear thin?

 

=Ayes=

[Druidnature 1,118]

 

 

So one side proclaims:

There is nothing wrong with traders, you pay 50s to get a small turnover each month, which you have to work hard for. (by setting ratios, crafting JS items,...)

 

 

 

Work hard? It takes me about 1 minute and 30 seconds to grab wemp out of my bsb, Craft 10 cordage rope, and be done with it for the month, That's not very hard... 

 

 

Rolf has stated he will be removing traders eventually, he's just trying to figure out how.

 

he didn't state straight out remove, he stated he's trying to figure a way to fix them which (could) involve removing them, but nowhere has he said he will straight out remove them.

 

 

My person opinion, leave it to them, Code Club is the one being hurt by it, so until they figure something out, I see no reason in arguing over it, in game, or on the forums.

[Cookiestomper 20]

Here is the very strange thing I find about the post that Rolf made: Feedback on Trader suggestion: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/99182-feedback-on-trader-suggestion/?p=1001418

 

This post was made by him asking for suggestions concerning this at my local time: Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:17 AM and then locked by Rolf at: Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:04 AM.

 

I was actually in the process of posting a response there and while clicking to proofread it, was locked out. So it was up for responses for not even quite 5 hours before no further input was allowed. Quite strange indeed in its implications.

 

There have been a number of discussions about the Trader draining process and its impact upon the game. Since I see little new added to the subject, at the moment I will leave it to others to ponder the significance of the unusual circumstance mentioned above. Does the plot thicken or is the disguise starting to wear thin?

 

=Ayes=

 

Interresting. Thanks for sharing. Seems like one side didn't have time to suggest anything. In the mean time, the /shout wars about traders rage on.

[viruskiller 105]

well if they think about removing them they better start logging how much money ppl get off them, and anounce it long time before.

  that way if there still are ppl that didn't got the initial investement back they have time to  get it, and others won't plant traders and not have enough time to recover the investement.

  there could be  an option to set the trader on terminal leave money gathering or something, where he won't trade until it has the remaining money from the initial investment, once it has them the owner can trade it , get the money and after that the trader gets removed.

   but i guess if they announce it like 10 months before there will be no problems for ppl to get those money and others not to plant more.

[fencejumper 491]

The other side says:

Free money each month for a 50s initial investment. The deed owners without traders pay for that free money, which is deemed unfair. The question that arises often from this side of the argument is: Why can't the kingdom pool be accessible by multiple means? (for instance by having goblin camps that can be raided for some coin)

 

 

 

Welcome to what? 2 months ago when they implemented an alternative way to get money from the kingdom coffers by selling crap to tokens.

[eyerobot 202]

I think the traders should also act like a merchant. With a much larger inventory.  But instead of draining them every month, The owner of the trader should get a percentage of the sales, Regardless which items are sold.  this way it would be beneficial to put your trader out in public, And not be afraid that someone will access it.  Also moving them should be an option, As long as its to an open area that doesn't have a trader already.

[validate 598]

Hmm. Not sure where I stand. But do understand both sides a bit ,

I think first is no allow any traders to be placed on new servers. , those who hate us owners could go there knowing no one has one.

Other thought is announce ahead of time. Like 3 months that trader forms will no longer b sellable , this preventing future traders on all servers,

then. Just wait out the remaining ones, they would slowly go with disbanded deeds from those who forget about them , and hey even make them go auto. If deed disbanded. Of course. We d need heads up though.

[Uberknot 327]

They take from all and give to few yes that's broken.

[Kegan 3,926]

Well if he does make a new system for money distribution what is to stop people exploiting the new system? You cant just make a coin drop in the game like on kills or the crafters would miss out. You can not give back to upkeep or we would have the same problem as now people setting upkeep drain deeds or the amount would be less than 1s a month so what would be the point?  The only way the upkeep would ever work is to make the mayor be premium so the deed costs at least 11s a month. 

 

Edit: Well i guess some people must have made suggestions as i looked back at the op, lol

Edited April 7, 2014 by Kegan

[Cista 428]

1) One solution is simple, but will not be popular since it removes the sandbox aspect of traders:

 

Once per month, place a new public trader - not owned by a player - at a convenient place on the server (starter deed, central market, central highways, heritage sites). Let these traders drain from the same pool of money. As more public traders slowly come to be placed, the income from locked.up traders will gradually diminish.

 

2)  A better solution would be the one already mentioned....  let the number of unique players that interacted with the trader completely decide the size of the monthly payout. Disregard the amount of money that was traded for completely. This way a privately owned, but publicly planted trader that hundreds of players have interacted with, could earn the owner more money that any of the traders do today. Be the one that offers the best service to the server, and you will prosper - just like with other trade or crafting services.

[bdew 2,462]

I think the traders are hurting the low-end parts of the player-driven economy in the long run. Money is artificially leaving circulation (from deed upkeep and npc wares) and is re-distributed to the "1%" that can afford placing one.

 

The fact that the discussion was locked within a few hours also rubs me the wrong way. Somehow i imagine that most of the people that rolf listens to directly have a major stake in the traders continuing to work as is 

 

It's all back to development transparency and communication.

Edited April 7, 2014 by bdew

[JudusX 199]

So the easiest way to "Fix" the traders would be to reimburse all players that bought traders for the full 50s regardless of how long they have owned them. That way there is no favoritism and the traders can be worked on or removed without hurting anyone.

[Gamurin 55]

Well if he does make a new system for money distribution what is to stop people exploiting the new system? You cant just make a coin drop in the game like on kills or the crafters would miss out. You can not give back to upkeep or we would have the same problem as now people setting upkeep drain deeds or the amount would be less than 1s a month so what would be the point?  The only way the upkeep would ever work is to make the mayor be premium so the deed costs at least 11s a month. 

 

Edit: Well i guess some people must have made suggestions as i looked back at the op, lol

Yeach but on freedom. On Epic you have to hire guard which cost 3s per guard to make your deed safe.

[Kruggan 519]

So the easiest way to "Fix" the traders would be to reimburse all players that bought traders for the full 50s regardless of how long they have owned them. That way there is no favoritism and the traders can be worked on or removed without hurting anyone.

 

Agreed.  At least some form of reimbursement.  There are many who may have purchased a Trader recently and wouldn't have benefited for years.

[validate 598]

I didn't realize Rolf was asking about the traders again.  if i was able to post before it was locked. i would have commented on that I just bought a nice chunk of land 7 deeds all around each other.  3 large deeds. 4 just trader deeds ($600us)

 

1 of which is fully done and costing 25s a month currently, but plan to expand 35 more tiles costing me 4 more gold and then 64s a month   currently this deed has 3 traders and is almost making the 22s a month for the upkeep. i put in the extra 3 cus 2 guards.  the other deeds at first i didn't think id want. but when i noticed the jump to 64s a month  would mean i'd need 4 more traders to help pay just for this one large deed.  then add another 1-2 to pay the trader deeds upkeep.

 

so when i got the chance to buy these deeds and be able to pay for my Dream deed that i plan to open up to all soon and one day make my own new player tutorial with these new signs, for info they don't get in the game one.

i didn't buy these deeds to be a gold coin seller, and my mains i always  pre pay for the yr 80eu x4. but 2 of my priests i do use the 10s in game.  so far a month after buying all these traders after prem time and deed upkeep i did have almost 25s left over. which i spent all on bulk orders. invest 6g and get 25s after upkeeps and some prem time.  it will take 24 months to make 6g unspent coin

 

i'm sure there are others like me. who use them for the help on upkeep and prem time, and putting the silver back in to the economy buying goods.  from what i can see on the sell forum is 1-3 gold seller per month now. vs 2 yrs ago thats way down.

 

so IMO  i prefer no changes. but can agree new servers should not have trader forums nor trader placement. only a few at spawn, and give a server those who don't want traders around.    if the traders did go away. ya i'd be a bit mad. as i'd loose deeds i couldn't afford any more. and if this happened before i made 4 gold coins back from traders i just bought wouldn't be cool.   according to my paypal i have spent almost 3500 EU into playing wurm.  buying many gold coins off players and in wurm shop, 2 characters , many deeds over the yrs, and bulk items. and prem time for 6 characters.   I dont have the traders to make the money back. but to reduce how much more i put in ,

 

I don't like getting involved in these topics, cus i know some hate folks like me and this can paint a target on me.  i hope it doesn't cus i am a nice guy. always helping others out. 

 

-one huge concern  i read somewhere was someone said Rolf should give the 50s back to all the ones who placed the traders.  this would be quite unfair. due to many have sold these deeds with traders to others.  (same issue with gold chests, only the placer can load them, deed owners can't)  if i placed 10-20 traders and sold them all. and one day get all the money back i'd be happy. but all the players sold them too would want to meet me on choas.  so if reinbursment was to happen. it should be to the deed mayor.

 

-hmm. i think one thing could happen is make traders have 50% to deed upkeep tax  auto.  vs allowing us to set 0-40%  this would put 50% to the deed and allow us the other 50% to move to our larger deeds or prem time ect.

 

please excuse me. if rambling and dumb ideas.  both my kids really ill last night. i kicked my 9 yr old out of his bed and sent hime and my 2.5 yr old daughter to bed with mommy so i could get 5 hrs of sleep last night.

[Lostone 93]

You all have 6 months noticed traders are changing.

If the deed has had one for 1 year plus no money back, under that divide a refund.

 

Or make it that only the deed only who must be premium can drain it.

Deed disbands so does trader , no freelancers left in the world.

 

Another way to give coin out , may be in the way of rare roll like for crafting , any sort of doing something gives a chance.

From crafting horse shoes to tending a field or butchering a corps , you have a chance.