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Rolf

Suggested changes to enclosure and highway rules

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>>>>>>solid ideas<<<<<<

 

+1

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Good to see Chaos finally getting replaced with a new pvp server, time to bury that old dog.


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What is to stop players from creating multiple throwaway alts, one after the other, and chain claim the land they want to occupy even using temporary small deeds though?


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You could always implement a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_universe system that would be just like buying a deed except without villagers although you would need to maybe for starters disable trading, dropping items, no mailboxes and no transferring items to and from to keep it fair although I am sure there are ways to implement it better you would see a decrease in people running out of room and more along the lines of someone wanting to join a "real world" village and start trading.


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Best alternative i can suggest is some sort of linking fences with 1x1's, normal decay ect and a writ when there a hole in the fence from decay the writ disbands but when the enclosure is complete its unbashable by anyone but the writ holder, i cant see this causing an issue as decay is normal and it would stop griefers.. if you want to keep it you have to maintain it... how to code it? i havent a clue as i dont code much


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I have not been able to read through the entire thread, so pardon me if I am just parroting what someone else has already said.


 


Legal Enclosures:


  • Give new, non-premium players a "newbie" deed paper that allows them to claim a very small patch of land as their own. When they choose to become premium, they get a notice saying that their deed will expire in a certain amount of time, and thus either need to create a deed, or move on.
  • Another thing is that after a month, these small claims disband or the player must pay a really small amount of in-game money to keep them going.
  • Maybe dedicate certain plots of land as a place for non-premium players can deed, such as around the starting area. That way they can't deed desirable spots just to grief others that are trying to deed.
  • ETA: These don't all necessarily work with each other, but are just some ideas that can be implemented.

Highways:


  • I don't agree that this rule should be removed. Highways should be protected at a base level to prevent griefing, but if someone plops a piece of land right beside one, or on top of one, they should be able to reroute the highway if they want without GM intervention.  With that being said, if you plop down next to one, you should have to agree to the responsibility of maintaining it and keeping it public. If you don't want that responsibility, don't deed next to one.
  • Highways are community projects. If the project is a huge undertaking, then yes, GM's should be involved in the decision process. Those in the surrounding area should be notified someway to vote and/or give feedback. If the surrounding communities can come to a decision without GM intervention - great! But those that can't, do need a decision maker.
  • I don't agree with special pavement tiles that only GM's can create/remove. This is just too much effort for the GM's and players.
Edited by Khalija
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I prefered the writt solution, because they were specifically made to stake out land on a personal level. Also they are quite more flexible than deeds.


 


It is one solution that can be adapted to cover several problems. And it is rather simple.


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It was only a matter of time before someone pushed the envelope on the current enclosure system. I'm surprised it took this long.

The only thing I can think of that might work to prevent fence abuse is to make untouchable fences cost money. Create a "Fence Permit" which would be really cheap, say 25 iron per wall, each month

This would allow players to designate private fences, which would not be destroyable by others.

Fence permits would have no meaning on deeds. Fences on deeds or perimeters are village property, and no extra fee is required.

Hypothetically, using what I described, if you wanted to fence in a 20x20 bit of land as a free player, it would cost you 2000 iron per month, or 20 copper. That's not a lot of money, even for a new player. There should be no maintenance requirement reduction on the fences or whatever is in their perimeter. It's a cheap way to hold land, it shouldn't offer any advantages other than protected fencing.

You could also prevent people from combining fence permit areas together, by limiting how close fences built on permits can be to one another.

This is a null meaning change on PVP servers. It probably shouldn't even be introduced as a mechanic there.

What happens next though? People will start using longhouses to claim land. Longhouses, at least, are a bit harder to put together.

****

As for highways, why not just create special highway tiles, which never fully degrade, but do require maintenance for best movement bonus. Only GM's can place them, they cannot be more than two wide. This would require that brick or slab roads be built first, before they could be designated as highways. Highways could be dirt dropped or dug out on PVP servers, or even damaged terribly, but not destroyed.

Players with the urge to work on repair or paving skills could then take a bunch of rock / bricks / slabs out in a large cart, and repair or improve highways. High quality highways would offer more speed bonuses. Terrible quality highways would slow you down to the speed of walking on grass. In PVP worlds, highways could not be destroyed, but they could be ruined and require a lot of work to repair, or just temporarily mucked up with dirt dropping. (Destroying Roman roads was no small task, though they could be messed up pretty badly in fairly short order.)

Edited by Farmerbob
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* Confused and need some clarification please *

 

On the deed I live on, I created 3 extensions on the perimeter of the deed, careful as to examine each tile so that is said it was on the perimeter of my deed.  I then fenced in some areas, made some Gatehouses ( storage houses ) on 2 sides, with a 'Tower House' in one corner overlooking the current highway ( and over Dotties place to see the inner sea )

 

1.  With the removal of enclosure rules are these pens still protected since they are on the perimeter of the deed on tiles that are considered part of the deed?

 

2.  Does the removal mean that anyone can just walk up to my wall, bash it in, steal horses or trash fields ( harvest em or whatever ) and then I have no actions I can take against these players, that I just have to suck it up and take it?

 

========

 

Now my suggestions to the changes some have been mentioned.

 

 

 

many paying customers have done a great deal of work and spent a substantial amount of money in building and maintaining structures in these areas without abusing the rules. Having had to pay for the tiles whether they wanted to or not (via the 5 tile minimum setup) and having to continue to pay for upkeep on these tiles there should be some benefit for them.

 

I agree with this, as I have stated, I have built on the perimeter of my deed, spending months digging and leveling are area to use as farmland since most of my village is on rock tile once you dig down.

 

The penalty we pay for these expansions is the increased decay rate for being off deed, even if it's connected to our deed once you hit that tile that says 'You leave Wonderland' then it is off deed.

 

 

 

Allowing people on Freedom to use force against others (in some cases the victim will have to spend a lot of time to repair the damage done) and still having the game code to protect them from repercussions doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
 

 

I agree and disagree, would be hard to auto code this with game mechanics say for instance, if RandomBob decides he likes my horses and bashes in a section of fence to steal them, then some kind of KoS reputation hit would be nice within a 100 tile radius of the tile he was doing the action on, for ALL guards and Templars.  By the same thinking it would be difficult for those that are legally removing a section of fence, like say for an off deed pen I would hate to become KoS on my own deed for removing a fence section.

 

 

Various posts about a 'Homestead Deed' - to many to quote

 

A Homestead Deed could be held by players, 

  • 1s purchase cost ( promotes new players learning the ropes and not just standing around )
  • 4x4 maximum size 1 tile perimeter.  Allows for 16 tiles to be used by the player
  • Unique Account Bound, prevents multiple alts holding these deeds for the purpose of 'land grabbing'
  • Non-Transferable Ownership
  • Deed auto expires in 60 days ( or to be determined )
  • Manager rights are simple, owner can do anything within this deed
  • Not allowed to add others to the deed, in other words anyone else on the deed is in 'lock down mode'.
  • Not allowed to add guards / Templars ect.
  • Since not allowed to add guards / Templars lighting is not automatic.
  • No decay halting or slowing on this type of deed, decay rate is as if person was not on a deed. This help promote a new player learning how to build and then repair prepping them for a real deed.
  • Allow for 'Upgrading' to regular deed as long as the owner does not currently own a deed and is premium if upgraded adds currently banked upkeep to go towards that. For example if a person buys a homestead deed, 1s, then adds the 60 days cost, 3s, and decides to upgrade to a full deed it would cost around 6 silver: 1s + 3s ( Minus what time was used ) + @ 6s = 10s for a Village Deed.
  • Refund rate for deed is simply 1s, since no upkeep base return rate of 1s refund for 1s cost and any left over upkeep.
  • Only 1 type of Homestead deed can be created within a certain amount of period of time, prevents players from putting down a homestead deed to grief picking it up and moving it within that time period. OR it can be a permanent deed until the time expires on it.
  • Regular rules apply for a Homestead Deed, for example, lock your fences and house, can not be built on a current perimeter, can not be built over an existing house ect ( see current deed rules )
  • Since the deed is Account Unique, one single character can not have multiple deeds on different servers.
  • Upkeep, this I'm half and half on, if we add upkeep it needs to be semi-steep but not so steep that a new player can't afford it.  Minimum can be 1s a month, 2 weeks, or even a week. Can not add more than 3 silver ( as per the 60 days auto expire rule )
  • Not allowed to join alliances, or create them, if the new players wishes to do that, earn the money to upgrade to a full deed.

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This ~one month heads-up is nice, but I think many would prefer a one month heads-up describing what the actual changes will be once they are settled on.


 


Enclosures: Could it be as simple as turning up the decay rate so it is unmanageable to maintain a vast area without deed protection?  Or if possible, make it so every additional non deeded fence increases the decay rate on the whole structure?


 


Highways: We have the in-game map feature now.  Add the major N/S, E/W roads/tunnels to the in-game maps.  They could then be clearly designated and have the ability to be made permanent.  Keep these to a minimum so it doesn't reduce the wild west feel of the game.


 


My recommendation would be to hold off from any major changes and focus heavily on the proposed in-game voting system (one vote per premium account) to get some real statistics for what the majority of players actually want.


Edited by Flycat

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As for the enclosure rule: Could you make fence building like paving or building a house? If you are trying to build a fence off deed, then you need a certain amount of skill to connect a certain amount of fence.


For example:  A beginner with low "Fence building" could only make a 2x2 enclosure and as his/her skill improves they can make larger enclosures. Cap non-deeded fences to a 6x5 or 30 tile enclosure. Make that enclosure "bound" to the player so they can't make another one until they destroy the old one or deed it.


 


As for the highway: Why not give a highway permit for a certain highway project.


For example: Alliance A wants a highway to connect from their inland areas to a port location or market by the sea. They receive a highway petition from a GM (or trader even) and are required to gather 10 signatures from other DEED holders, not just any player.


 


Upon receiving 10 signatures the petition becomes a highway permit. The permit holder receives survey markers that can only be moved by the permit holder and plans the highway.


 


Once planned, a GM is called in to approve the survey or indicated where changes need to be made, then sanctioned construction can begin.


 


Upon completion per the survey, the permit holder checks a "completed" box and the highway section becomes semi-permanent. Changes or removal could only be made with joint consent from the permit holder and a GM.


 


This would make it very hard for griefers to do their thing and also keep one person or deed from halting a project that many others want to have done.


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BIG -1 TO BOTH IDEAS.  Are you trying to ruin Wurm?  It sure seems like it.  I for one am irate about this.  I've just spent 3 months building a major highway on Deliverance, and now I'm being told that anyone will be able to come along and destroy hundreds of hours of work?  Do you need more GMs or something?  To completely remove a rule in a game simply because the GMs can't be bothered to deal with it is quite honestly the most foolish thing I've heard come out of Wurm in years (and that's saying a lot).  Freedom servers DEPEND on these rules.  You might as well just take the Freedom servers down now, as there will be no way to protect the beautiful roads and enclosures people have made.  Once again, a developer team decides to nerf their playerbase because of a few bad eggs.  Why not just ban the people who abuse the enclosure rule?

 

The only way I'll ever be ok with this is if they come up with a new kind of free deed.  Otherwise, there's now absolutely nothing to protect newbies, and no way to efficiently retake areas that may have been deeded over by other people while you were away from the game for 8 months.  (Ahem.)

 

So no highway or enclosure rules? Time to grab my maul and shovel!

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 I have no actions I can take against these players, that I just have to suck it up and take it?

 

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>>>>>>This post is made as a player, not as a member of staff<<<<<<

 

 

A potential solution to enclosures might be to use the existing deed mechanics but not allow any options. The intent of an enclosure was to give players a place to live that let them secure from harassment in a small zone and try out farming, keep an animal or two, etc. It was mainly targeted at free players new to the game, but personally i dont have any issue with older players using them to live if they want.  you would never get me to give up my decay free deed however, repairing fences and carrying my own light is boring.

 

anyhow:

 

--------------------------

 

What if any player could right click on the ground, his body, a daffodil... something anyhow, and get the option to place a homestead deed.  everything about it would be pre-determined ahead of time.

 

My personal opinion is that it should be the same size as a minimum size deed, (eg 11x11 with 5 tiles of perimeter all around) just to keep it using the exact same mechanics as a deed, and allowing players to use a settlement form on it at a later time to upgrade to a regular deed. It would  use the same planting rules as a normal deed as well, eg must own all houses covered by it, cannot place over existing deeded land... etc.

 

only the owner could do anything on the central (11x11 or whatever) land: build, bash, farm, dig, etc. basically the normal deed settings all force locked to "mayor only"

anyone could pick up items on the ground however. it prevents bashing and lockpicking, but you still have to take the effort to put your things away.

It would have no gaurds.

It would have no decay prevention, no autolighting lamps, and no respawning. 

It would only be able to have one citizen, the owner.

it would be able to join alliances, but not found them, and allies would have zero permissions on it.

 

The owner would not be able to belong to any other deed or homestead. (tho you could remove the homestead and place it elsewhere with a suitable cooldown (maybe 7 days) if you wanted

 

If the owner did not log in and right click on the token to use a reset option once every 14 days(longer, i think thats long enough myself..., shorter? maybe, not too short tho, people have real lives), it would disband and the claim to the land would be gone, any fences would remain, but no longer be protected by game mechanics or rules, and of course writs would still act like any other writ.

 

these could not be traded back and forth.

 

------------------------------------------------

 

This would allow game mechanics to prevent access to the area, force a set limit on the size, provide a pretty simple and straightforward method for making sure the land is still in regular use, and allow for the area to be easily changed into a normal paid deed at a later time if the owner desires. The lack of ability to add others to the land, or to allow allies to use the land keeps abuse mostly in check i believe. 

 

The ideas in this post are not completely my own, and have been condensed down from several other discussions that have been had over the years.

 

>>>>>>This post is made as a player, not as a member of staff<<<<<<

Edited by Kyrmius

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Perimeter is not deed, you shouldn't build anything in perimeter and expect it to be safe.

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And honestly, if someone takes the effort to build an enclosure and maintain it, I don't think they should be faulted for that.  Stuff on deed is easy to maintain because the decay is so slow, whereas offdeed you have to repair it pretty often.  I think that if we are doing away with enclosures, then all structures/fences should remember who they are built by, and if someone bashes/destroys them, the person who built them should be able to PVP them, even on Freedom, because otherwise there's no way to defend your walls.  I think this change will ruin Freedom, honestly...


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+1 Enclosures


-1  Highways


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I think the highway idea is a bad one, because there could be a lot of griefing , perhaps big pits that you can't cross,  fences going across blocking the way, or just remove it completely and plant trees or thorn bushes, all sorts of ugliness can happen.  It will give people the opportunity to be spiteful  when they get annoyed with each other.  Please rethink this decision.


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And honestly, if someone takes the effort to build an enclosure and maintain it, I don't think they should be faulted for that.  

I am rounding 90 masonry. I can spit out 80ql stone walls all day like they are nothing. I can spit out 1x1 houses no problem too. If I want to, I can wall off thousands upon thousands of tiles in one day... keeping you and everyone else off of the land I wall in, for at least 6 months (without ever having to go back to repair).

I don't do this because I think it's a crappy thing to do (I already wall off enough land, which, at least, have the decency to pay for). But, there are plenty of people that do it... and there are a lot of absurd enclosures on every server. This is the problem with the current rule, this is why it needs changing.

Now, I've been playing since before the rule existed, so I know if it gets removed it's not going to be the end of the world that everyone here is claiming it to be. I was a squatter once too. No one bashed into my enclosure, but the whole reason I "stepped up my game"  and bought a deed in the first place was because I wanted to fully protect that enclosure that I had been squatting on for months.... just in case.

Having said that, I'm not opposed to the enclosure rule getting a complete overhaul, instead of removal. I would have no problems if the enclosure rules specifically stated: "A legal enclosure consists of a fenced in area, no larger than 11x11 tiles, that borders one or more buildings. A legal enclosure cannot be conjoined or adjacent to another enclosure."

As for highways, I think the extreme protection they've received for a long time is unwarranted. I do, however, recognize the importance that highways play in the game and do agree that some form of protection or coverage is needed for the main network of roads. I would suggest that highways in need of protection should apply to become "heritage sites", so that their being altered means permission by game moderation is necessary. This would keep protection on the main network of roads, while allowing the rest of the 2x paths from all the villages that don't make it longer than 12 months to be removed. Everyone wins.

Edited by As_I_Decay
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Most people need those "legal enclosures" to protect offdeed animals and forests (who's fault is the upkeep is too high for everyone to afford a decent sized deed, AND pay for premium?). A lower cost of upkeep would allow people to safe their animals and trees ON deed, resizing actual settlements.

Deed maintenance is NOT so high. Even without earning anything in game, a 10 euro payment per month gives one one month of premium and 2-2.5 silver coins, which is enough for mantaining a 33*33 deed without a templar. That's enough space for buildings, farm, trees and animals (over 60 animals with good ratio!).

That's more than any normal player would need for self use. And if you want more than this, well, in this case either start earning coins in game or ipen your wallet, because that's really greed, not need.

Is not like any household any hermit needs a castle, a cathedral, an inn, a smith and many other buildings more suitable fir a village. You want them? No problem, but don't say you need them.

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The only idea I can come up with that cant be abused is simply an item given to new players.

 

Land Claim Stake (untradeable): Item given to new accounts that could be used to drop a deed like claim over a full size 5x5 (this is including the tile the stake is on) with no perimeter. It would be controlled and limited to only accounts on the friends list that staked the claim and are no older than 1 month and would be capped for X amount of time before disappearing (IE 1 week) so that the player could learn to play the game and have time to decide if they will keep playing or deed the land. After the time is up a short cool-down period (IE 12-24 hours) could be given to block others from deeding over the spot except for the one who staked the claim. During this time the only protection given is deeding except by the one who staked the claim.

+1 I see this as the best possible way out of legal enclosures, gives new players the ability to 'protect' a small plot of land a 25 tile plot true 5x5 with a non-token token at center, no perimeter. Make it free for first month and then 50c upkeep per month. ( I chose 50c because it is cheap enough for genuine new player but still costs more than just putting up a deed over 4 of those claims to make a minimum deed, thinking to prevent players using alts to grab more land cheaper than buying a deed*)

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Finally i would like to state that i think the existing perimeter system is terrible. I am forced to pay for tiles that i have virtually no control over. It also allows the hogging of vast amounts of land at 10% of the cost of deed tiles thus contributing to overcrowding. I would suggest that perimeter be reduced to a flat 1 tile with no option to increase the size and no upkeep cost. If you want the land then deed the land and pay for it, period. The only reason i concede that a 1 tile perimeter be in place is that it prevents disputes over who owns a border where 2 deeds actually touch. It is wide enough for a proper road but only a citizen of one of the 2 involved deeds could build structures in it without express build permissions from one of the involved mayors.

Great ideas 'till here mate, but with this one I disagree - there is at least on legit reason for a large perimeter: securting a land you will later want to expand to; like my deed is only 23*23, but I also PAY for 14 tiles of perimeter, so eventually I could expand to 51x51 if I will want to turn my homestead in a village. Also that perimeter acts as hunting ground which can't be deeded over by others. And I do pay for it.

So yeah, I agree that you should have the option to not have any perimeter if you don't want it. But at the same time please let me pay and have mine if I feel I need it.

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Have to say...


 





Is not like any household any hermit needs a castle, a cathedral, an inn, a smith and many other buildings more suitable fir a village. You want them? No problem, but don't say you need them.




 


vs.


 





So yeah, I agree that you should have the option to not have any perimeter if you don't want it. But at the same time please let me pay and have mine if I feel I need it.




 


Amuses me for some reason....


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I have a suggestion for solving the newbie situation with legal enclosures:

A house model with a fence section already attached to it

A house with a set size and the same goes for the enclosure. When you plan it all of the Enclosure House's outlines are laid out at the same time, like when you plan a 1x1 house except with more parts.

- The Enclosure house cannot be resized

- Cannot be placed too close to another enclosure house

- It cannot be built wall to wall with a regular house or fence

- A player can only hold one Enclosure house writ

This way the legal enclosure would suffice as protection for newbies while at the same time not be "useful" enough to be abused as free tiles. The restriction on how close together they can be put along with the inability to place them next to regular fences would serve as a deterrent from creating alts to try to hog land with them.

Edited by Aeris
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My suggestions:

- disallow bashing on perimeters; this will help a lot of people that legitly fenced their perimeter (can't really call land grabbing an orchard on your own perimeter or on the perimeters between your two deeds). No other rights, just prevent bashing.

- using the same mechanic as perimeter (no other protection except no bashing, no deeding over) allow each player to place a small camp (maybe limited in size, but not necessarily) for which they should pay two times the normal price of perimeter tiles - limited to one camp per player

This will:

- pretty much mantain exact same rules as now regarding enclosures just that now people will pay for their tiles and protection will be coded so no more drama and extra hassle for GMs

- be quite easy to code since it uses an already existing mechanic - perimeter toles

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