Suggested changes to enclosure and highway rules

[Blacklotus 276]

The only people who are really going to suffer the loss of the rule for enclosures are the people who have been abusing it and the free to play players. I can go into a forest, and build a 70ql stone fence around my little plot of land and short of somebody hell bent on destroying it and willing to spend the days required to knock it down off a deed, it wont be touched. Some newbie comes along to the same place and builds a 15ql wooden fence surrounding not just his plot of land but a much bigger chunk of the country side, his fences will more then likely be smashed unless he's really showing to be using it but maybe that's the way it ought to be.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Blacklotus

[Shidoni 84]

Everyone with a single wall off deed, be sure to ask for your deed removed from community maps.  Griefers will be targeting places they can find first.  So long community maps!

[Arkonick 557]

I Personally just riped every thing off my enclosures and moved every thing to my remaining deed which will disband in 45 days now which time I will be throwing every thing that can go in a trash bin so it can be perm deleted before My deed runs out which I will spend the next month and a half destroying all my carts and ships at the end of the time that this final deed disbands there will be nothing left for a single soul to have when I quit.

 

I'm done talking and done explaining things and with no word from Rolf him self on his true nature and intentions I'm finally done. Done subbed to the next sandbox. It's not wurm but it comes close so it will suit me fine. It's been real Rolf

[Blacklotus 276]

Ark if you truly hate it that much and you don't want to play, just leave it. It isn't worth that much effort if you truly don't care anymore. That reaction just seems a bit extreme.

[Webba 257]

As much as it is nice to escape the bureaucracy of rl a sort of planning permission system could work. My idea is one person selects all the tiles like planning buildings and then has to build notices on say a fifth of the tiles spaced out. Then anyone could right click the notice and read the plans, which would show them all the tiles proposed as highway. They could then vote for or against it, I would suggest that voting be for premium only players and maybe only for people with deeds within a certain distance of the highway. After a month It would close the voting and if a high portion of players voted yes then it would be protected. I would also have a notice in place for anyone who is a part of the deeds nearby to get a message on log in saying "A highway has been proposed nearby". Highways would have to be at least 2 tiles wide, paved and less than 24 slope. This way you could also put up plans to alter highways which would also involve a vote. The aim of this is to make it a system that involves those who live near not one person deciding they have made a highway.

 

As for enclosures, do what you want I live in a mine

Edited April 9, 2014 by Webba

[KunAlt 844]

BTW, even if enclosure rule is removed there is ways to create pretty safe places, you just need to look at what pvp people do to protect the deeds, and then note a couple of facts, on pve no one but the writ holder can bash house walls, its imposible to dig tiles supporting a house, and you can make up to 300 slope dirt walls depending on your digging skill, and reinforced tiles can´t be removed off deed.

[Shidoni 84]

Ark if you truly hate it that much and you don't want to play, just leave it. It isn't worth that much effort if you truly don't care anymore. That reaction just seems a bit extreme.

Eek!  Its the reaction police!

Its his stuff.  He can do what he wants with it.

[Arkonick 557]

@Blacklotus Yes the effort is worth it. No one will raid my spot and get anything. They can go out and make there own stuff.

[RedBaron_Johan 2,853]

Hello everyone.

 

Only reason we devs have not been responding to any greater extent in this thread is that it was meant for feedback from you to us.

Therefore it needed some time to generate answers obviously.

But we are going to be looking into it now to sort out the gems.

 

There are of course as was previously stated reasons behind why we need a change like this.

But how we are going about it is not set in stone and hence this thread.

 

We also wanted this to trigger your thoughts in advance so you can be more prepared that a change is coming.

How it will finally materialize is yet to be decided, though it will affect how the enclosures and highways are currently handled.

 

I do appreciate any change to the enclosure rule will affect many.

I am certain we will find a solution for the new players.

For those of you who are sitting on those huge areas, the aim is to find some middle ground we can transition into.

 

But please do try to think creatively to solve it from your perspective as well.

 

I mean, if a landowner comes to your family's house out in the countryside to tell you that you have fenced of a major area which is prime real estate, up for sale.

Do you up and leave your home or just adapt and move the fence to the lot you have bought?

I for one might initially nurture the thought to start building some type of castle like fortification around the whole thing screaming at anyone getting to close.

But in the end it is not about the space, it is about doing the most with what you got.

 

Will update you further when we have been able to go through this giant of a thread.

Talk to you later Wurmians!

[Shidoni 84]

I mean, if a landowner comes to your family's house out in the countryside to tell you that you have fenced of a major area which is prime real estate, up for sale.

Do you up and leave your home or just adapt and move the fence to the lot you have bought?

I for one might initially nurture the thought to start building some type of castle like fortification around the whole thing screaming at anyone getting to close.

But in the end it is not about the space, it is about doing the most with what you got.

To be fair, I have to physically live somewhere in reality.  I don't have to stay on Wurm

That said, I don't have large enclosures off deed.  I had a tiny one that I have since moved and am trying to find a solution for my fifth generation fighting bears so my templar doesn't start thinking they're tasty.  Most of the people I've seen complaining here said they DON'T have large off deed enclosures.  The majority (like myself) had fenced their perimeters.  Which no one else can use anyway.  Which is how talk got turned to perimeters in the first place.

But I do appreciate the need for a change.  I just wish we had some sort of idea what the change was. Rather than "assume the position and wait".

Edited April 9, 2014 by Shidoni

[tobaul 28]

TOO SOON FOR RAGE.  Emotional yes, many of us have seen  changes dropped on us that hurt us.  In all fairness Rolf is doing exactly as we the players demanded of him.

He is giving us 30 days notice of an upcoming change.

He has asked us for suggestions and the rebuttal that comes with it.

Lastly he is staying out of it as requested, if he adds a line of text it is no longer notice but becomes a slugfest.

 

I am still seeing new posts so the thread is still actively doing its job, there are many showstopping ideas in this thread that if used would prevent all but the tiniest amount of player loss.  Indeed many may quit, but the time for that is after this thread runs its course and Rolf makes an announcement on his final decision, only then will you be making an informed decision.

Fight when your touched not when you are scared.

[Crack 408]

Ark if you truly hate it that much and you don't want to play, just leave it. It isn't worth that much effort if you truly don't care anymore. That reaction just seems a bit extreme.

 

Why should someone else benefit from him quitting? to be honest what hes doing seems completely fair, he made/brought those items he can do what he damn well wants.

 

Oh and If we dont show Rolf our rage at his plans and keep quite how will he know anyones against this?

So for all you telling everyone to chill out as i said before, chilling out will simply make Rolf's decision to remove highways and enclosures that much easier...

Edited April 9, 2014 by Crack

[Shidoni 84]

I still agree with an earlier suggestion of highway specific tiles.  I have no idea how codable it is, since i'm not a programmer.  I didn't study, I didn't know there would be a test.

Highway specific tiles could come with a popup warning about their use and that it is unlawful to remove them without GM approval.  This allows for highway adjustment without a GM having to approve EVERY TILE. But gives people a clear warning as to what that terrain is for.  It should also be a three tiles wide graphic asset. Any further details I have neither the experience or knowledge to flesh out.

 

As for enclosures, most of the "solutions" I've heard in this thread are complicated and only serve to confuse newbies, rather than help them.  Special enclosure deeds, special enclosure buildings, etc are all going to be a bit overwhelming to someone who doesn't know what they are doing.  I honestly don't know a reasonable solution.  But I do strongly feel that bashing walls in a deed's perimeter should be disallowed unless it is the deed holder/villager.  No one else can use the land.  I agree people shouldn't completely block their perimeters, but if you want to disallow ANYONE from using it, make it so even the deed holder can't build on it.  Otherwise let us do so without some penalty that isn't even aimed at us.

[Hussars 511]

Hello everyone.

 

Only reason we devs have not been responding to any greater extent in this thread is that it was meant for feedback from you to us.

Therefore it needed some time to generate answers obviously.

But we are going to be looking into it now to sort out the gems.

 

There are of course as was previously stated reasons behind why we need a change like this.

But how we are going about it is not set in stone and hence this thread.

 

We also wanted this to trigger your thoughts in advance so you can be more prepared that a change is coming.

How it will finally materialize is yet to be decided, though it will affect how the enclosures and highways are currently handled.

 

I do appreciate any change to the enclosure rule will affect many.

I am certain we will find a solution for the new players.

For those of you who are sitting on those huge areas, the aim is to find some middle ground we can transition into.

 

But please do try to think creatively to solve it from your perspective as well.

 

I mean, if a landowner comes to your family's house out in the countryside to tell you that you have fenced of a major area which is prime real estate, up for sale.

Do you up and leave your home or just adapt and move the fence to the lot you have bought?

I for one might initially nurture the thought to start building some type of castle like fortification around the whole thing screaming at anyone getting to close.

But in the end it is not about the space, it is about doing the most with what you got.

 

Will update you further when we have been able to go through this giant of a thread.

Talk to you later Wurmians!

 

Johan,

 

Hope you don't mind, but someone on your side might want to take a look at this, because this is quickly starting to feel like a more mandatory paywall.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhz9OXy86a0#t=216

 

There is no way to say that changes in the enclosure rules/system don't appear to be an effort to motivate folks to buy a deed, especially if they want to "own" or control large tracks of land.  Yes it has the added benefit of potentially reducing the GM support/service call volume ( I still believe it is just going to shift the service calls from one bucket to another) so hopefully someone has at least done an impact analysis/ROI on the dev side for management to make an informed decision.

 

But at the end of the day, it's still about getting us to spend money on the game.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Hussars

[Archaed 2,280]

This is far from a mandatory paywall, a mandatory paywall would be the requirement of premium to leave golden valley.

 

This is an allowance for new players to get a taste for the game before deciding they wish to invest and purchase premium/a deed. They're already able to join any deed, and there are plenty of villages on every server recruiting.

 

There are many ways for a free player to enjoy the game, but claiming land within the game is something that should always cost money.

[RedBaron_Johan 2,853]

Interesting thought and video Hussars.

Though I can tell you that from what has been discussed so far, money was not the issue.

It is about creating a scalable model which is not heavily dependent upon having huge amount of staff.

[Shidoni 84]

There are many ways for a free player to enjoy the game, but claiming land within the game is something that should always cost money.

 

 

So many of us want a home on the internet. Wurm will provide you with that! You can build your own little home anywhere in our lands, for free! 

Should prolly change this on the main page, then.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Shidoni

[Archaed 2,280]

Nothing stops someone from building a home, writ protects everything

[Kegan 3,926]

I still like the idea of using the perimeter function to cover enclosures by not allowing anyone but the deed holder/members to build/bash on it..keeping the decay ofc. If you are concerned with the space between deeds then just keep anyone even the deed holders from building anything on the last 5 (free ones) but any extra bought can be used by the deed holders for a cheaper alternative for an enclosure that the guards will not attack from as well. 

 

roads i don't really care 

Edited April 9, 2014 by Kegan

[RedBaron_Johan 2,853]

Should prolly change this on the main page, then.

Depends on how we solve the implementation for the new players though right?

[Arkonick 557]

Sad part that was the first lines on the page. Not like it was in small print in the bottom of the page that you need reading glasses to see it.

[Shidoni 84]

A PR officer surely knows the need for concise, clear wording on the main page.

 

The last thing I want is to give you guys a hard time, and unless this goes disastrously, I'm not going anywhere. I'm a premium user and have a very expensive deed.  This is simply a concerning trend to me, and clearly to many others.

 

Is the intention to give newbs/free players protections and benefits that paying players do not receive?  If you're simply trying to snag players into buying deeds or losing protection, make every new player come with a temporary newb deed paper.  Have it include very very concise information so there's no room for confusion.  Have it last a finite amount of time for free.  One per email.  Then remove all enclosure protections, period.  I'm sure this is the kind of "solution" Rolf wants.

 

Here are the issues with it; its manipulative.  Here, have a some free space and make everything from scratch yourself!  Oh, you want to keep everything you've worked for?  Tough!  Pwahahaha.  Buy a deed or risk other players swooping upon you like gleeful vultures!  Pay us to make the pain stop.

 

This isn't rewarding a player for buying into the game.  This is putting on the thumb screws until they either quit or bleed silver.  Paying should have benefits.  Paying shouldn't be how you sleep better at night.  Forcing a customer to pay to avoid unpleasantness, rather than paying for pleasantry is a faulty business model.

[Hussars 511]

Interesting thought and video Hussars.

Though I can tell you that from what has been discussed so far, money was not the issue.

It is about creating a scalable model which is not heavily dependent upon having huge amount of staff.

I don't doubt that, but from the outside looking in, it could be seen as such.

 

 

This is far from a mandatory paywall, a mandatory paywall would be the requirement of premium to leave golden valley.

 

This is an allowance for new players to get a taste for the game before deciding they wish to invest and purchase premium/a deed. They're already able to join any deed, and there are plenty of villages on every server recruiting.

 

There are many ways for a free player to enjoy the game, but claiming land within the game is something that should always cost money.

 

Didn't say it was actually mandatory, just that depending on how it goes, it could be seen as one.

 

Deeds vs. Enclosures are already a paid-for advantage in land disputes, which honestly I'm fine with, as I don't think non-paid-for land usage should block paid-for land usage when talking about game mechanics.

 

But I do have an issue with saying any land control should be paid-for only.

 

Doing so places a limit on those who do not want to, or can't for some reason, pay for the land usage which changes the "flavor" of the game for those not buying a deed.  This also does make it a form of paywall, because this aspect of the game would be completely cutoff otherwise, since you need to buy premium and the deed (and pay upkeep).

 

You want to have a spot to call your own, go for it, but understand you're effectively a squatter (no matter how much work/care you put into the area).  Anyone who wants to "buy" that land from the Kingdom should have right of way.

 

This a process that works very well with the current systems, rules and policies.

 

From a system mechanic approach, the only real thing I could see being workable (while keeping the major elements the same) is some form of new "free" deed, that imposes limits on the land usage (default max size, no added benefits from a "full" deed" except the enforcement of "Lawful" status, etc...)

 

Otherwise, the entire deed system will likely need to be reworked from the ground up or (as you suggest) you cut off the ability for people to build fences/structures on non-deeded land.

[Belrindor 663]

This is far from a mandatory paywall, a mandatory paywall would be the requirement of premium to leave golden valley.

 

This is an allowance for new players to get a taste for the game before deciding they wish to invest and purchase premium/a deed. They're already able to join any deed, and there are plenty of villages on every server recruiting.

 

There are many ways for a free player to enjoy the game, but claiming land within the game is something that should always cost money.

 

"So many of us want a home on the internet. Wurm will provide you with that! You can build your own little home anywhere in our lands, for free!  If you find out that you could use some help, you can always join others in forming a settlement and cooperate."

You may want to talk to your boss before you start changing company policy there, bub.

 

[Seara 686]

This also does make it a form of paywall, because this aspect of the game would be completely cutoff otherwise, since you need to buy premium and the deed (and pay upkeep).

 

Everything in Wurm can be paid for with in game silver.  No one is forced to pay real money to experience any aspect of the game.

 

(One exception ... getting prem while on Ele, but I'd personally like to see that changed too)