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Rolf

Suggested changes to enclosure and highway rules

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Does anyone not remember this post back in December? http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/93345-feedback-request-on-fence-stuff/

 

See? Did he listen to anything you said then? If he did, I don't see any of it in his "directive with a question mark" here. He gives you his intentions with a question mark at the end and asks you for suggestions he doesn't want to hear. If the did, he would have gone back and read that thread. He replaced flying and jumping with not protecting highways and ignored any comments made.
 

 

As most of you know you can fall down into a fence or wall section and become trapped. We have the fix to this already, closing the hole at the top of the fence but it isn't ingame yet. However, it also means that you will be able to move over fences and stone walls if you can get high enough.

 

The good thing about this is that we could give you the possibility to fly in various ways. It is possible that it should be a fairly rare thing in Wurm but attainable to anyone who happens to find such a creature or ability and probably body control based. Such creatures should not be breedable.

 

The downside with flying is that it makes it a lot easier to get into areas and cause trouble especially on PvP servers.  That part could be fixed by adding arrows to settlement guards that easily shoot down hostile flying creatures or force them to land outside deed, so it's solvable. Even on freedom servers settlement guards could attack flyers that are not citizens or allies. It will become possible to jump over fences from the current dirt walls and rock sides though, especially if we add some jumping which we might want to.

 

Thirdly, there is a lot of discussion when it comes to the "legal enclosures" rule on the freedom servers. Adding flying would make it impossible to uphold that rule since you wouldn't even have to break a fence in order to land in someones enclosure. The rule already seems to create a lot of situations that end up in a grey zone of who is right or wrong which is undesirable so many on the team want it to go away anyways.

 
We would try to hold this implementation off for as long as possible since obviously you would need preparations but once a decision is made it would probably happen after a month or two.

 

Thoughts? This would have quite an impact on the game but flying and jumping is sort of interesting features. And we need to fix the getting stuck in fences/walls bug eventually.

 

 

You know what I think? I think this is his way of telling us we are going to have to deal with people flying and jumping over our fences. Deeded or not.

And of course, while we are striving for added realism in a world with dragons, trolls,unicorns, giant spiders, flaming creatures, and giants, we will need flying or riding on giant birds to truly sinch that realistic feel to the world. 

And I won't be deleting this one. There you have it.

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Any one else having flashbacks of the old AoC days when reading this thread? It's like, almost the exact same thread, just years later...


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But you see... They don't have to. That is the point. Nobody is telling those players to go compete with the rich. Some people dont need a deed to enjoy the game, you are not required to make your deed to play the game. You are making it sound like that in order for everyone to enjoy the game they have to make deeds, buy silver etc... They don't. It's why its a sandbox. There are no goals. 

I disagree with you. This is sending the message out loud and clear "We want to do every single thing we can to extract every penny out of people that play this game". Only the well-off groups of people that pool money together can control vast sections of an area, pop in multiple deeds around people and box them in. This happens a lot already. Good for them that they have nothing better to do with their money than annoy people in Wurm. But for the others that just want to play the game and not monetarily compete with the above mentioned types Wurm is nothing more than saying "hey we only want the people that can  pay pay pay pay. We will bend rules to accomodate them and keep the high dollar players,to heck with the little guy". The greed level is getting increasingly high from what I've seen the past few months. Really have a bad feeling this is only the beginning.

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Just my two cents on the issue of "legal enclosures".....


 


Let me start by saying that I am a paying customer, have been since my 2nd week playing almost a year ago. I pay for 3 toons and 4 deeds currently.


 


With that being said, many of you know that I am in the bulk supply "business" in wurm, it is what I enjoy doing. Buying and selling and dealing with people, meeting their needs and the such. I have been doing so for 10+ years now in online games.


 


When I placed my first deed, I did so with the full expectation of being able to use the "legal enclosure" rule and to expand my deed at no extra cost. Does this make me a land grabber, it very well may, but I did so within the rules as they were stated, and what anyone else may think about people doing so, they were within the rules regardless of if it was "intended" for them to be used in such a way. I have spent THOUSANDS of hours building up my deed and the enclosures, maintaining the enclosures and using the land for farming / dirt / logs / animals and much much more, all within the stated rules of the game.


 


Now with the possible rule change, all "legal enclosures" lose their protection, (that they were built under, following stated rules) This means that the thousands of hours of time put into securing and using this land is now a waste. For now anyone can come along and start bashing my walls down, harvesting my crops, stealing my animals and so much more with no recourse from me or any other person that WILL experience this on a daily basis. We followed the rules when building, we built according to the posted guidelines, and now all for nothing. Either we have to deed it all or lose it all....


 


Now my issue here is not the cost of deeding as we will be deeding one of our places and dropping the others, the issue here is as paying customers, we played within the rules, we followed them to the letter as MANY other people have. Heck how many people even bother to read the rules in the first place let alone follow them. And now because of wanting to reduce the "workload" on the GM's they are going to remove this protection, that I have been paying for. Yes I say paying for because as a paying customer of 4 deeds and 3 toons, I paid to play within the rules as they were stated.


 


In the end, it is the people that have been following the rules (does not matter if you agree with them or not, they are followed) that are getting stepped on here and treated like dirt. Paying customers that have built up their paid for areas with the full expectation that those in higher power would honor their own word and rules, instead they change them at will leaving those paying customers high and dry, all because they followed the rules.


 


Makes one wonder why even follow the rules, if the rules can and are changed like the wind, it is better for people to do just want they want and forget the rules, because even when playing under those rules you gain nothing.


 


If I go to any business on the face of the earth, and I am a paying customers, I have every right to fully expect that the rules that are in place for that business to be enforced and followed. If I eat dinner at a restaurant, I have every right to expect that restaurant to remain open until posted hours. If that restaurant were to close 2 hours early in the middle of paying customers meals because the "managers" wanted to do less work, that restaurant would not be in business very long. Same logic applies to any business model.


 


Its a lack of respect for paying customers that have been following the posted rules and very unprofessional, Honor your own word and your rules, or get out of business. Paying customers deserve better!


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Ok, So originally I did not wish to offer a suggestion because frankly I feel it's not my place. But I thought of something. First the deed placement/expansion system is broken and really a main cause of our use (abuse?) of the enclosure rule.


 


1. Remove the "perimeter" they only complicate deed placement and quite frankly make us live in perma fear that our off deed stuff will be ninja'd out from under us.


 


2. Allow us to claim tiles, one at a time for a price which are attached to our main deed. The main deed starts out 5x5. Then we could pay for extra tiles on a tile by tile basis. The further from the deed, the more the tiles cost. Doughnuts and loops would have to be managed via code (not difficult if you consider yourself a coder).


 


This plan would solve most of the problems with both land grabbers. And it would satisfy the problem that those of us honest players have been dealing with. With regards to protecting our things. (Trust me if I COULD deed our creations I would).


 


As for the highway system. I personally do not see a problem with the rules as they are. If you don't' want a highway through your land, then reroute the highway. I understand that this can put some stress on the GM's, but that is what they signed up for. I'm sure there are plenty of us players who would be willing to step up and fill their shoes.


 


Personally I have had nothing but positive interaction from the GM's and I think that they are perfectly capable of managing this.


 


 


Again, It's not really my place as a paying player to fix the game. If my suggestion is not followed, I'm not going to be upset. But at least you all know there is an option that can make us all happy; or at least content.


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*snip*

 

Hear, hear! 

 

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luoxltKH9w1r6aoq4o1_500.gif

 

Suggestions:

 

Mandatory perimeter:  Kill it, you didn't really expect people not to use them from moment 1, SPECIALLY with the legal enclosures rule having been in place as long as it was.

 

AND

 

Ratio:  Doesn't work.  If a 1500 tile deed can't be used to start a 5-speed line over time without having to resort to perimeter, then it is inherently flawed with your plans to make effectively perimeters no-man's land again.  Expanding my deed into a hypothetical 0-perimeter (I HAVE NO ROOM TO EXPAND) would leave me back in square 1.

((Edit: Or start early while not that many people have quit, and admit your lapse in judgement and leave any deed-perimeter area out of this.  You'd think the thread about flying would have made that general sentiment clear))

 

Newbies and their need for a starter house: 5x5 max enclosure size, keep it protected at least up to <x> amount of days, say 30.  If player's been inactive more than 2 weeks, loses protection.  I Wouldn't have lasted long enough to decide to plant a deed had i not used that lovely 5x5 *SAFE* squatter habitat the first couple of weeks.  The local thief at that time would have had a field day with my lowbie stuff.

 

Business aspect:  We are paying customers, not your employees, not your children, not friends who you're lending a server to.  You exist for us, not the other way around.  Start bearing that in mind.  Gnome's restaurant comment is rather spot-on.  It's your game, and while you have the right to change your mind at a moment's notice, Rolf, so do we regarding where our money goes.  Business is rarely about pleasant decisions, and within reason, the customers' interests come first as they will decide what the figures will look like at the end of each quarter.   

 

Also, corporate IMAGE is important, and right now, the image is damaged.  Specifically, regarding whether what we paid for will retain its value or be dropped at a whim.  Your post basically says "That deed you paid for?  Yeah... that safety you gave us money for.... might be less in a month... you'd need to pay more to reclaim it, and may lose most or all of the hours you used securing it".

Edited by Mordraug
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  Business is rarely about pleasant decisions, and within reason, the customers' interests come first as they will decide what the figures will look like at the end of each quarter.   

 

 

 

At the end of the day, business is very often not pleasant or fun, its why business is called business. As long as you remain faithful to your word, and honor your customers, you will remain in business. Lose site of that and you will soon be out of business. It happens every day around the world. It is often not very easy to honor a word given in trust, it is often done at a loss, but you know whos loss, the business, never the customer. If you do everything you can to make that customer feel valued and respected, not only will they purchase your goods or services, they will do so so often and they will tell their friends and family, because people naturally want others to experience the good things in life. If you provide one of those good things, if you simply honor your word and respect your customer, then that very customer now has a vested interest in seeing you succeed. If you don't, that very customer will do what they can in their powers to see that you never serve another person.

Edited by gnomegates
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They have animals ratio cap because the too many horses hurt the wildlife ratio and allegedly.. lag (it was someone on irc crying out lag near horse pen that cause rolf thinking of ratio).


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I'm not going to go into my opinion on enclosures here -- but if Rolf is looking for a better solution than what we have now..


 


 


Why not have the ability to create an "enclosure" fence:


1. This fence could be a standard quality (say 20 or so, depending on what decay is at the moment -seems to have increased lately so something that would last a *reasonable* amount of time before requiring maintenance would be ideal, but not so high as to allow huge areas w/o appropriate effort in repairs) 


exception to this being a higher ql level for enclosures in perimeter "owned" by deed owner/villager of said deed, or someone who has been "given blessing" by owner


-this would make enclosures more even between f2p accounts who need some protection and the high ql large enclosures p2p can create


 


2. Code into the special "enclosure" fence that if they are all connected in rule fashion (so for instance now that would include having a complete 1st level building connected to or within bounds) they by mechanics can not be bashed


-this takes GM work of complications OUT -- if it is an enclosure, it is protected by mechanics, if it is not and it is broken into then it was *not* at that moment an enclosure


 


3.  Allow "owner" of the enclosure to "poof" their enclosure at any time, regardless of premium status


-this means if someone decides to move on, but doesn't want to spend time bashing or does not have BS to bash they can easily move on and have the area clear for a potential new occupant


 


(4.) Perhaps also allow ability to remove enclosure protected status without totally poofing, just in-case someone wants to make a tweak or something w/o destroying it all... (of course if a f2p cant bash and wanted to make a change I guess they'd still have to find a prem to help out?  Or allow for a certain period of time after relinquishing enclosure status that any player (even f2p) could dismantle individual sections?... just a thought)


 


 


How might this potentially work for the user?


1.  Player creates their enclosure following the guidelines of what an enclosure is.  They can use any fence type they wish.  Fences would require whatever materials they would usually.  Add in a complete house if that will remain part of the deal. (personally I'm thinking maybe just take the complete house requirement out ... that way if a noob has a low ql house that is their primary residence as their "designated" building they have a bit of grace in protection if a wall accidentally goes out... after all the fence will be a standard ql that still needs repairing)


2. Player right clicks within the enclosure and is given option to "create enclosure"


3.  In window that is opened to "create enclosure" player is prompted to mark fences/house they wish to be the official enclosure (maybe something like those little flags we can see when doing a deed size would show up on each fence section/ selected building)


4. Player submits the request-- and the coding runs a check that all fences are in tact, connected, and following the official rules -- then grants request, turns the fence to whatever standard ql had been chosen for "enclosure",  and codes the fences/house as "enclosure wooden fence" or "enclosure crude fence"..  "enclosure building"... you get the idea.


5. Should the "chain" be broken "enclosure" protection is lost --- player could replace whatever section needed and submit request again.. If you wanted to be extra nice maybe find a way to code a message upon log in to the "owner" that their enclosure is about to loose protection in 24... or 72 or whatever hours ... I know this would be more tricky because decay is not terribly predictable... but maybe system could run a check and look for highest decayed section and give a warning based on that? .. even just a message meaning "hey... you have a section somewhere over 80% decayed... you will loose protection if you do not repair)


 


Players *could* have more than one building but the designated building would be part of the "complete walls" check to maintain status


-if a non-designated building shared a wall with the fence border and was not the "designated" building only that particular wall would be run in a check that the area was enclosed


-non-designated interior buildings would not be part of the check at all..


-or the building requirement could be gotten rid of??? and just any building wall part of the fence-line would be part of the enclosed status check?


 


Other fenced areas could still be made in whatever ql the builder chose but would lack the protection against bashing that  "enclosures" would have.


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Just an addendum so that I know this opinion can be read even if the previous long post isn't...


 


 


From my browsing it seems some people are saying to get rid of the mandatory perimeter in deeds... I guess I should re-read Rolf's original post.. I'm not sure he even asked opinions on the matter...


 


My 2cents is that if anything is done to perimeters make it only optional to forego - and keep the mandatory five as default.  For example... if you want to get rid of your mandatory perimeter or just a side or 2 of it you are able to.  That way if you want closer neighbors or to join 2 deeds you can.  Allow the possibility (assuming the land is still open) to reclaim the "mandatory" 5 tiles at a later date if wished.


 


However I think the 5 perimeter tiles included in the purchase of a deed do serve a purpose to give people a little breathing room and allow perhaps some trees for timber to grow outside the "town".  I know we get worked up when someone maybe comes along and plops next to us... at least with things the way they are presently it gives you that little buffer to plant some bushes or something if you don't want to look at your new next door neighbor every time you go outside... or who knows.. maybe you want to avoid *their* prying eyes!!!... (Geze.. I'm just trying to sit on my porch and drink my wurm-wine in peace without your judgement!!!!)


 


 


You know they say good "fences" make good neighbors... imo the buffer zone is an important "fence"


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You know they say good "fences" make good neighbors... imo the buffer zone is an important "fence"

 

It's not just for looks, it's for movement infrastructure. What if each deed was crammed up against the next, and fenced? How could someone move around? Whole sections of the server could be impassible.

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I'm not going to go into my opinion on enclosures here -- but if Rolf is looking for a better solution than what we have now..

 

 

Why not have the ability to create an "enclosure" fence:

1. This fence could be a standard quality (say 20 or so, depending on what decay is at the moment -seems to have increased lately so something that would last a *reasonable* amount of time before requiring maintenance would be ideal, but not so high as to allow huge areas w/o appropriate effort in repairs) 

 

** Rest Cut Short ***

 

+10 for this.

 

 

From my browsing it seems some people are saying to get rid of the mandatory perimeter in deeds... I guess I should re-read Rolf's original post.. I'm not sure he even asked opinions on the matter...

 

I think it started from my question about what happens to the 'Legal Enclosures on a Deeds perimeter' specifically if there is no room to expand since a neighbor is butted up against your perimeter on all 3 sides ( 4th side being Dragonfang Mountain )

 

After that, it totally got trolled by someone making flaming remarks for about 4 pages that derailed anything and became more of a P2P vs F2P rights.

 

Hopefully this thread can get back on subject about suggestions on how to deal with HIghways and Legal Enclosure suggestions.

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Sounds like good changes to me.  Highway rule is pretty ambiguous and enclosure are just annoying, frankly.  Much better to focus GM efforts on real problems I'm sure (or let them have some time off!)  


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Also, corporate IMAGE is important, and right now, the image is damaged.  Specifically, regarding whether what we paid for will retain its value or be dropped at a whim.  Your post basically says "That deed you paid for?  Yeah... that safety you gave us money for.... might be less in a month... you'd need to pay more to reclaim it, and may lose most or all of the hours you used securing it".

 

This is the crux of the matter. As I've said before, it really doesn't matter what IS. What matters is the perception of what is. And right now it's not looking so good, and confidence is severely lacking.

 

I think some actual reassurances and clarifications may be in order. People will react to what they know, and if you don't give them something SOLID, then they will react based upon your track record. And, well... let's just not go there.

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rolf wana more deeds, more upkeeps, more premium...more money...


 


so goals:


 


non premium must be pushed to become premium soon as posible


 


allow deeding houses outsite of deeds without writings...   allow expend in 5 perimeter also keep 1 tile min perimeter....


 


more items sold from traders, bartenders, auction houses...


 


highways tiles can be locked and protected by players who made em with support call...   25c per tile can call gms to protect  it


 


no more rules about bashing offdeed walls...   so that will also increase size of deeds and ammunt...


 


 


make freedom real freedom for premium ppl not for poor noobs...  


Edited by RockyBalboa

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From reading Rolf's post it seems he will make the changes except if he sees a 'showstopper'.  After reading Enki's response a bit later on, and talking to some of my friends in game, it seems Rolf wants to find ways to code protection in the game and have GM taken out of the picture so they don't have to intervene in grey areas of the rules.  I will thus address these to issues separately:


 


1. Showstopper


 


I travel extensively.  I talk to many, many people, and have as many people on my friends list.  Since this post by Rolf, some of this came up in other conversations, and here is what I found from a quick calculation:


 


a. Between 25 deed owners who contribute about 2 gold of upkeep alone, all of them said they are taking a 'wait and see if this really happens approach, because if it does, we are out of here'. If I was the owner of a business and heard this kind of information,  I would be worried.  Showstopper worried.  Note the following:


 


b. This amount does not take into calculation the premiums, not only of said deed owners, but their various alts and priests, of which there are many.


c. This does not take into account the many friends who have not mentioned this or who I have seen post on this thread about not wanting these changes to happen without customer consultation and perhaps a vote on the matter. Is it possible to have a poll about this in the game itself, or on the forum with requests to go vote given when you log on?


d. This does not take into account the money these people pump into the economy of wurm via traders and spending silvers in game.


e. This does not take into account what those people will be telling their friends, the blogs, the steam community, and the other media outlets they may be involved in, once they decide to leave this game.


 


Perhaps 2 gold upkeep (and potentially a LOT more) and perhaps 3 gold premium (and potentially A LOT more) are small amounts for a game this size.  Perhaps it is not.  But I would be concerned if this was the response I got from my customer base.


 


More concerning is that there are now 15 pages of comments about this asking for more clarification and perhaps some reassurance from the public relations person of Wurm, and I have not seen this happen.  This creates a lot of angst in the customer base, and in reality, distracts us from the enjoyment of the wonderful game that Wurm CURRENTLY IS.  


 


2.  Codable solutions - once again, I am not a coder or a programmer, but here are things I think could be workable:


 


a. If any legal enclosure is in part or whole on the perimeter of a deed, this legal enclosure will be deemed as belonging to said deed (which still means the enclosure has to adhere to the rules of having a house and intact fences to be deemed a legal enclosure.  It cannot just be any enclosed area in a perimeter.)  The mayor and anyone who has bashing rights on the deed, can bash the enclosure fences.  Nobody else can build or repair or bash these fences on a deed's perimeter.  These legal enclosures can be any size, but as long as they are in part on the deed and or the perimeter of the deed, they are seen as part of the deed.  You can put some further rules in here, for example, the amount of tiles enclosed in this way cannot exceed the amount of tiles which is the deed's perimeter any way. This means if you want just the tiles in your five tile perimeter to be enclosed you pay for these tiles when you place the deed, then can enclose them.  If you want more, you pay for a bigger perimeter and can enclose more, or not, whatever you choose.  In this way, small deeds can have small legal enclosures and bigger deeds can have bigger legal enclosures, just around the deed. This will allow people to have protected horse pens and forests around their deeds, but they still have to maintain the fences and houses on these perimeters.  Yet it will stop others from plopping legal enclosures around your deed and into the perimeter around your deed just to grief, as they obviously cannot claim ownership of this and it can be bashed by the mayor of the deed, no GM intervention needed.  Would also allow two adjacent deeds to be played as one.


b. For any 'legal enclosure' outside of perimeters of deeds, for example in the wilderness of wurm where a noob may want to start out, it is only deemed a legal non bashable enclosure if it is the minimum deed size or smaller, i.e. 5 by 5 or smaller.  It follows all the normal rules of legal enclosures, i.e. it will take damage, it has to be fully enclosed and it has to have a finished house.  This can be planned (like a house) by any player and you get a 'enclosure writ' in such a case, and allow people to make these over their far from deed mine entrances or make a small rice paddock on the coast if they have no waterfront, etc.  The fences are automatically non bashable as long as the legal enclosure is maintained and intact. This feature can be included in the tutorial, with strict instructions to noobs about how to inspect the ground so they don't build on a perimeter, and that they should ensure to log regularly else the enclosure will poof.


c.  If need be, limit the amount of these small legal enclosures a player can own, to say, three.  They automatically poof if said player does not log in for a month.


d. This small enclosure is protected from being deeded over for a month in real time.  Some protection for noobies just starting out.


e. Any enclosure bigger than this small enclosure is not 'plannable' and thus is just a bunch of fences with houses attached.  The fences are bashable by any person.  This will stop people from hogging huge amounts of land. 


f. Highways: Find the main highways used by the servers, and make them permanent type tiles.  They can be rerouted with GM permission, but not unpaved/raised/dug as they are coded permanent fixtures or something.  As I said, I travel extensively, and I would like to know when I travel, that there will still be a road to get from point A to point B without having to find alternative routes around deeds or around ripped up highways, every time I travel.


 


I am not a game designer and I love playing Wurm.  This situation has me worried - I hope we can soon get some feedback that would make us less concerned.

Edited by Fairyshine
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I think rigth now one of the main problems is a lot of people don´t clearly understand what perimeter is. As I see most of the people miss one key fact: "You don´t own perimeter tiles", the free first 5 perimeter tiles exist only for one main rason: To disallow the use of deeds as a way to box people. The additional perimeter tiles you can pay for, are a reserve you make for certain portion of the land existing outside your deed, you don´t pay the full price of that tiles, hence you don´t have the full rigths on it. The only valid way of realy owning land is making it deed tiles.


 


To give a real life example, its a common practice wen someone wants to buy a house to pay a reservation fee, this reservation fee "reserves" the home. During the reservation period the home will be withdrawn from sale and it will not be subject to any price increases. Usualy the reservation fee is non-refundable, in some very few cases the seller can choose to refund the reservation feee at the time of collecting the full paymet, but the normal practice is to make this fee non refundable. Well is the same in Wurm, you pay certain fee to reserve the perimeter around your deed because you don´t have or don´t want to expend the money to deed that tiles, but you have the intention of expand your deed in the future(or just don´t  want to have close neibhorhods), in this way by paying a reduced amount of money (reduced in relation to the real price of deed tiles) you pull off this land from the pool of available land, with the sole pourpose of disallow the posibilty of another person to buy that tiles.


 


On Enclosures: enclosures are a legal abomination, implemented as a way to give people without the posibility/desiree of buying a deed the hability to settle down at a certain place for free, having some kind of limited protection. Its an abomination because first, enclosures rendered obsolete the main an only pourpose of the free 5 perimeter tiles, since by using 2 adjacents walled deeds plus a legal enclosure people can be boxed/isolated of the rest of the server, and this is something I know very well because it happened to me at some time. And second is an abomination because by abusing this rule it give a way to some people to claim big portions of the available land pulling it off from the market without paying a single dime (in clear oposition to the deed owner paying a fee for the same pourpose).


 


My 2 coppers


Edited by KunAlt
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As a newbie, this change has me worried.  I support everything Fairyshine (and others) have said above.  I have built a plot in an area of non-deeded space, have put a fair amount of effort into building skills, aquiring livestock (trading and capturing wild, plus kind donations from vets).  I've accumulated a haul of useful stuff, most of which is not exciting by server standards, but it is the product of my hard work.  I went premium slightly less than a month ago, and had been looking to setting up a deed (with my undeeded neighbours) until this change came along.


 


Being griefed and having my junk and critters stolen would pretty much destroy the game for me.  It's looking like deeding where we are isn't going to work anyway, as we're sandwiched between other deeds (at least 1 of which looks abandoned anyway), so unless the perimeter rule changed, we'd end up cutting strips off our current enclosures to fit.  I was also considering starting up a second (premium) account as a priest.  While I get the need to change something to reduce GM workload, this change just seems to be too far in the other extreme.  I'm not playing on a PvP server specifically because I don't enjoy having to deal with constant invasions and raids on my stuff; I want to build and explore and socialise.


 


In short, please don't make the change as proposed, and (as others have already requested), please give some feedback and updates on what's going on.  Even if you don't care about the likely exodus of paying customers, please allow us to continue to enjoy the game.


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Why not have the ability to create an "enclosure" fence:

1. This fence could be a standard quality (say 20 or so, depending on what decay is at the moment -seems to have increased lately so something that would last a *reasonable* amount of time before requiring maintenance would be ideal, but not so high as to allow huge areas w/o appropriate effort in repairs) 

exception to this being a higher ql level for enclosures in perimeter "owned" by deed owner/villager of said deed, or someone who has been "given blessing" by owner

-this would make enclosures more even between f2p accounts who need some protection and the high ql large enclosures p2p can create

 

2. Code into the special "enclosure" fence that if they are all connected in rule fashion (so for instance now that would include having a complete 1st level building connected to or within bounds) they by mechanics can not be bashed

-this takes GM work of complications OUT -- if it is an enclosure, it is protected by mechanics, if it is not and it is broken into then it was *not* at that moment an enclosure

 

3.  Allow "owner" of the enclosure to "poof" their enclosure at any time, regardless of premium status

-this means if someone decides to move on, but doesn't want to spend time bashing or does not have BS to bash they can easily move on and have the area clear for a potential new occupant

 

(4.) Perhaps also allow ability to remove enclosure protected status without totally poofing, just in-case someone wants to make a tweak or something w/o destroying it all... (of course if a f2p cant bash and wanted to make a change I guess they'd still have to find a prem to help out?  Or allow for a certain period of time after relinquishing enclosure status that any player (even f2p) could dismantle individual sections?... just a thought)

 

I like thism if I'm understanding you right, it's quite early of a morning here.  Only problem I can see is you'd have to put a cap on it, if you didn't say so already, or you'd have ppl doing 1000x1000 of enclosure fences all over.

 

Say cap it to 100 (thats a 25x25 enclosure, 25 front, 25 each side, and 25 back) enclosure fence pieces per character for free, and if the character stops playing/is deleted then their enclosure fences "poof."

 

Then you wouldn't have massive land grabbers taking everything up without everyone being able to bash into their stuff.  GMs would be out of the picture, smiles all around, except for ppl with VAST amounts of non-deeded currently "legal" enclosures. This would be a happy fix for the enclosure rule, imo.

Edited by Tarquin

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The simple answer is PVP so you can protect your own roads and enclosures, with those skills such as Fighting and Longsword.  Need to have a decent reputation (criminal? bounties?) system in place to make this solution work.


Edited by Rushy

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I keep seeing "the perimeter is a buffer zone to avoid deed-to-deed walling" ......... 


 


Have yet to see someone calculate their deed size without the perimeter factored into land needs/wants.


 


ALSO, anyone who fences a perimeter area was gonna do so with or without it and most likely on that exact same spot anyways.


Only way that would have worked would have been to start from early.... say.. when deeds were added...... and make veeery clear that you wanted nothing built on perimeters, and that it was unsafe land.


 


Way too late, customers paid under a certain set of EXPLICIT conditions, not necessarily aware of the IMPLICIT ones (aka what was in Rolf+team's heads for ideal scenario.. we're not psychic).  


 


Back to gnome's restaurant:  Owner decides to close 2hrs early in the middle of peoples' meals making them shove the food down their throats at an unpleasant rate or leave half the paid for meal unfinished.   Some customer is gonna ask why in hell they were not told they had 15 minutes to eat BEFORE they ordered.  It won't help any if the owner says "Well, I was THINKING about it earlier".


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So far I haven't offered any "solutions" for some very good reasons.


 


1. I would love for their to be a BETTER solution to enclosures since the game itself does NOT prevent bashing even though the rules says one should not.  Lets face it, a shitton of people WILL do it as long as they CAN.  So while I would love for their to be a built-in measure for this; it brings me to


 


2.  I'm a bit insulted as a customer that we're being asked for solutions to your coding limitations.  How do we know what's codable?  How do we know what is and is not feasible in the mechanics of a game YOU built?  You can't simply lay the onus on your customers for finding a suitable solution for you as if that's our job.


 


You can clearly see what a horrible bickering fest this has turned in to.  There is absolutely no question that the majority of your customers are vehemently opposed to enclosure and highway protections being entirely removed with no alternative.  You've also distastefully shown your hand in that you just think enforcing your own rules is too much work.  We pay you to develop and maintain the game in our entertainment interests.  If you expect us to do the job for you, we shouldn't be paying you.


 


Asking for feedback and suggestions is great (regardless of your unwillingness to take them into account), but don't ask us to fix your game or live with whatever you break.


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The simple answer is PVP so you can protect your own roads and enclosures, with those skills such as Fighting and Longsword.  Need to have a decent reputation (criminal? bounties?) system in place to make this solution work.

 

If pvp was the answer we all should have moved to Chaos or Epic long time ago. So no, PVP is not the answer.

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I keep seeing "the perimeter is a buffer zone to avoid deed-to-deed walling" ......... 

 

Have yet to see someone calculate their deed size without the perimeter factored into land needs/wants.

 

ALSO, anyone who fences a perimeter area was gonna do so with or without it and most likely on that exact same spot anyways.

Only way that would have worked would have been to start from early.... say.. when deeds were added...... and make veeery clear that you wanted nothing built on perimeters, and that it was unsafe land.

 

Way too late, customers paid under a certain set of EXPLICIT conditions, not necessarily aware of the IMPLICIT ones (aka what was in Rolf+team's heads for ideal scenario.. we're not psychic).  

 

Back to gnome's restaurant:  Owner decides to close 2hrs early in the middle of peoples' meals making them shove the food down their throats at an unpleasant rate or leave half the paid for meal unfinished.   Some customer is gonna ask why in hell they were not told they had 15 minutes to eat BEFORE they ordered.  It won't help any if the owner says "Well, I was THINKING about it earlier".

 

You seriously need to understand the most simple concept behind what you keep complaining about:

 

Perimeter (the 5 free) is a buffer zone anymore past that you decide to pay for is future expansion.

 

It really is simple to understand. It was NEVER meant to be land for you to own like your deed.

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So far I haven't offered any "solutions" for some very good reasons.

 

1. I would love for their to be a BETTER solution to enclosures since the game itself does NOT prevent bashing even though the rules says one should not.  Lets face it, a shitton of people WILL do it as long as they CAN.  So while I would love for their to be a built-in measure for this; it brings me to

 

2.  I'm a bit insulted as a customer that we're being asked for solutions to your coding limitations.  How do we know what's codable?  How do we know what is and is not feasible in the mechanics of a game YOU built?  You can't simply lay the onus on your customers for finding a suitable solution for you as if that's our job.

 

You can clearly see what a horrible bickering fest this has turned in to.  There is absolutely no question that the majority of your customers are vehemently opposed to enclosure and highway protections being entirely removed with no alternative.  You've also distastefully shown your hand in that you just think enforcing your own rules is too much work.  We pay you to develop and maintain the game in our entertainment interests.  If you expect us to do the job for you, we shouldn't be paying you.

 

Asking for feedback and suggestions is great (regardless of your unwillingness to take them into account), but don't ask us to fix your game or live with whatever you break.

 

Agreed 100%

I sure hope the higher ups are actually reading these things....its almost like they yelled fire in a crowded room and are sitting back laughing at the chaos......

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