Suggested changes to enclosure and highway rules

[Mordraug 2,542]

Btw perimeter would TRULY count as "free" if we had the option to not take one at all.

 

Seeing as how the 5 tiles are *mandatory*, they're not free, they're INCLUDED.   Remember that next time you buy a holiday package or such ;-)

[Cista 428]

There is a very simple solution to the highway issue.

All paved tiles are already monitored for traffic. As it is, if nobody steps on a tile for 24(48?) hours, then it has a small risk of decay.

 

Just make it so that of nobody steps on a paved tile for 48 hours, then it can be destroyed by a player. It will require very little new coding. (And do it so that the guy wanting to destroy it doesn't reset the timer).

[Busted 289]

i wonder what will happend when bridges come in...   everyone will have own road own bridge own highway....  in some parts already to many roads, but some parts are cuted away from roads...  

[Lycanthropic 523]

Enclosure Rule:

Ok, there are some anti-social players out there on each server that fence of entire areas, causing free land to be limited for newer players.

If you destroy the enclosure rule, then you are hurting more players that have small off deed pens, grapefarms, whatnot... then that you are hurting the people who fence of vast areas.

 

 

The problem with them being able to keep these fences repaired is:

1) The Ritual of the Sun Mag cast: Repairs all walls in its domain, its easy for one of these land-hoarders to put down 80+ql mag altars every 20 tiles to make sure all is covered

 

solution: Make the Ritual of the Sun cast, only repair walls ON DEED and ON PERIMETER, no longer on tiles outside of the perimeter.

 

 

2) Decay rate: When I was on golden valley back in the days as a newbie, I had to work rather hard to keep everything repaired with the decay rate on that server.

So I was forced to make a fenced area that was small enough for me, that wouldnt need me to repair for 5 hours every weekend.

 

Solution: Insert the goldenvalley decay rate for tiles that arent deeded/perimetered. In other words, make life a repairing-hell for those who have 100's of fences stretching huge areas. AND let planks/rockshards/bricks repair only half of the damage they would usually repair AND make the repair timer 1 minute (again, only for stuff off-deed/perimeter)

 

People with small enclosures (5x5, 10x10) will be able to keep up with the repairing if they spend a few hours each weekend running around with planks/shards, the land-grabbers will have a harder time and probably wont be able to keep up with it for long (simply put, make the guys who are the cause of you thinking about removing the rule, sweat from the repairing)

 

 

Because of the stupid limitations we have to (dis)allow stuff on deed people are usually forced to go off deed for certain things (breeding hellhorses/rats,  making guesthouses or newbie resting places, ...)

(please please please allow us to really really fine tune/micro-manage every thing people/guards can and can't do on our deed.

And I do mean "MICRO manage"! I want to allow PersonX to dig clay, but disallow him to dig dirt, allow guards to kill trolls but leave all other agros alone, allow people to cut only overaged trees, disallow personx to breed horses but allow him to breed cattle, ... Keep global settings as a basic, but let us click a button "advanced" next to each setting to go truly in depth what is allowed and not allowed on deed)

 

 

 

Highway Rule:

When I arrived on inde 3-4 years ago, I knew of the highway rule and respected it, I devided my deed in 2 to keep the nice clean highway unaltered/interupted.

Highways, now even more with the wagons added, are extremely important means of getting around the server in a fast and semi-safe way for trading and hunting (or meeting friends in distant deeds)

 

So pretty please, dont get rid of the highway rule. Ok, most people who have a deed close to a highway most likely wont do anything to it when the rule would dissapear, but you always have some rotten apples who will settle on top of a highway and go: "Cant hurt me, there's no rule against it!"

 

Getting rid of the highway rule will hurt more then it does good. But maybe the following can be done to get rid of the rule, but keep most of the big roads safe:

 

Solution: If you want to get rid of the highway rule. Have a means for GM's to "fixate" the current main highways (some way of right clicking the tile and selecting "fixate").

That way the current MAIN-road network would stay somewhat intact.

 

Stupid idea (thats why the small font) but might be a solution for problems that arise from really fixed roads, like leveling/flatten close to them)

If people move in near a highway, deed it, and somehow are limited in their building plans, have them contact a GM to tell why they should be able to alter the highway a bit, a GM could come over and look at the situation, then decide to "unfix" the tiles and give the deed-owners a time-frame to do their work, but make sure that they keep the  highway running uninterupted by them rerouting it a bit or something)  => will cause a bit of work for GM's, but probably not to much of these cases would arrise

Again, just for people who have a deed close/on a main road, not people making enclosures.

 

 

In short:

Their are ways to keep the rules intact for the "normal players" and make them harder for those extremes that bend them.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Lycanthropic

[Arkonick 557]

That's simple Spellcast if a GM don't have abilities Rolf needs to give them to GM's so they can do there job. I don't know how Things are done here but I had abilities to do a lot of things to help me calm and fix things that where done in EQ.

If someone breaks in and damages  some ones stuff and it wasn't called for that person is entitled to have his hard worked replaced. Not told tuff luck. This is not good for business at all. I was able to do many things to help me get to the bottom of things 1 example would be turning my self in to a random mob in the area and watching the 2 parties speak before I took action so I could see who was throwing gasoline on the fire. Or I would just go invisible and wait there for a few.

 

You as a GM should be asking for the tools to help you do your job just as the fans ask for things to help them have fun in wurm. I'm sure if you GM's got to gather and started a article about things you needed to help do your job the fans would back you up. I'm one who would vouch for you cause I was a GM for 7 years and now retired. If you need tools you need to bring it up with Rolf. When we needed tools we where always talking to the staff at SOE for tools to help and they where more than happy to help us seeing we where doing it for free. One big problem I do see  in wurm is GM's are allowing there friends to know who they are and show off there GM char in secret. We where never allowed to let this information out. My friends didn't find out who I was on the side till the day I retired my position. Yes they where very shocked. There is a reason why this info is to be keep secret and that's so your friends don't look to you for help when there in the wrong just because you are friends. This protects your friend ships while you do your job even tho you have to punish your friends. I've banned several friends over 7 years I made in EQ I didn't like it but it was what I signed up for.

 

Again Rules need to be set in stone so it makes your job easier not harder. Like on this legal enclosure example would be X amount of squares need to have X amount of buildings on them other wise I would have to tear them down. Then I would give the player in the wrong a time limit to get his legal Enclosure that's not so legal up to date or I would come in and shrink it my self till it fit the rule. This is things and judgment calls I had to make in EQ and I can't tell you how many calls I had on Camp Violations and camp stealing.

[Shiraek 464]

This is a hilarious overreaction and will result in some epic griefing, unless the coded mechanisms (to protect both) are in place before the GM protection is rolled back.

 

Newbies need a way to secure stuff that's legal, and they AREN'T going to fork out for a deed form without trialling the game first. Look at the in-game stats if you have them, if not, GET THEM. A lot of players will build a house somewhere before even talking in any of the chat channels.

 

Instead of just ditching the enclosure rule, limit it to 11x11 or something. If you need to code something, disallow bashing of fences within 5 tiles of the NW corner of a completed house, unless you're the owner of the house.

 

Similarly, removing the highway rule will result in the complete ruin of most servers road networks within a year. All kinds of people will come out of the woodwork and decide to plant houses and fences right across roads and nobody will be able to stop them, unless GM's intervene - only now they'll be doing it without a rule.

 

I don't see an AI way to protect highways that wont turn into an exciting new way to grief.

[bp1986 173]

The highway rule, I am sad to see go, but I do like the 'Reinforced highway' as suggested by Rosedragon. As for the enclosure rule, I am happy to see this go as it was abused, but I do think that new players need a way to defend themselves. I like the free micro deed concept, but would push it to a size 2 (5x5 area), no cost, no upkeep but no decay prevention - the ONLY purpose is protection from other players. Also, legit deeds should be able to override free micro deeds in the way that perimeters already override houses.

[Shiraek 464]

I mean, what's to stop me building an 8x8 70 quality stone building right across the main highway to green dog, blocking it off between two fenced areas? If a GM comes along and says he'll knock down my new house, I can legitimately ask him what gives him the right to do so. Is there some rule that protects highways? I thought we ditched that one cos it was too hard?

 

All this will do is change highways from difficult to protect, to impossible.

[Busted 289]

Tbh with all the talk about newbie rights you gave to accept the fact that most newbies don't last the day, let alone longer. Their right to build an enclosure that's protected should be secondary to the right of the Premium player who supports this game. 

 

Sure, we need newbies to stay in the game but this can be encouraged by pushing them in the right direction. 

 

Join a village, learn the ropes, break off once you're confident enough to do so alone. Hell, set up newbie reservations where they can build their pointless crap shacks and quit 8 seconds later if they desire without it ruining the rest of the world for legitimate paying customers.

 

if not, people can grief your off deed enclosures, take your stuff, teach you that being alone in the wild is hard and not for everyone. Sooner they realise this (through experience or education) we can focus more on the important stuff and not so much on protecting the rights of people who don't contribute financially to the game.

[MaurizioAM 919]

10x10 is 100 tiles, new players doesn't need that much >_> ...

 

It means people can bash one wall, get in, and deed it.

[As_I_Decay 1,592]

I'm okay with doing away with the enclosure rule. I am also okay with removing highway protection rule, UNLESS it is considered a "heritage" site.

And if we're doing away with highway rules, can we get the silly 20 slope digging limitation taken off of paved tiles?

[Audrel 2,223]

if not, people can grief your off deed enclosures, take your stuff, teach you that being alone in the wild is hard and not for everyone. Sooner they realise this (through experience or education) we can focus more on the important stuff and not so much on protecting the rights of people who don't contribute financially to the game.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Audrel

[Shiraek 464]

I love these suggestion threads. The village people will say "join a village" and pretty soon the PVP people will arrive and say "just PVP to protect the highways and enclosures". Meanwhile, the overwhelming majority of this game's future players - solo PVE players - won't make it to the premium stage. Maybe it will stand as a monument to what happens when you don't understand who your customers are

[Busted 289]

That's why they are taught first and foremost that if you go it alone in the wild without the protection of a deed you are liable to get into trouble. Group up, settle with friends or join an existing deed. Right now people join thinking they can do pretty much anything and don't have to pay for any kind of protection. That there is whats always been wrong with the entry level f2p - people can do so much without ever laying down a penny for it. If they are probably going to quit anyway, either they can pay for it or play in a way which won't spoil it for the real customers.

[Shidoni 84]

This is absolutely retarded.  While I understand the issue with a few players here and there enclosing large swaths of land, this is an absolutely ridiculous response.  There are a myriad of situations between "I have a deed" and "I'm a ###### who likes to enclose everything".

Here's my situation; I have a large deed.  I have been premium for nearly 2 years and have lived in the same spot for the duration.  My south side is to the sea and every other side is backed in by perimeter.  There is a tiny portion of my south east that was just sticking out into the water between myself and another deed.  I personally dumped dirt into the ocean, terraformed it up and built a very small enclosure for a friend who had just started the game and liked the spot, but it was too small/too close to other deeds to deed.  Part of it is on my deed.  Most of it is on my perimeter.  It is maintained, pretty, and bothering no one.  

With this change, the absolute second it goes into effect, tons of people will be going out looking for enclosures to smash and grab from.  You've already seen people gleefully rubbing their hands together on this very thread.  If you think this will be LESS work for you and your GM team, you have a very limited imagination.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Shidoni

[Xallo 2,599]

I've seen no issues with enclosures, but that's perhaps because most people on Independence are actually thoughtful.

 

Don't allow griefing on highways, but go ahead and remove enclosure rules if that makes you feel happy.

[Audrel 2,223]

I love these suggestion threads. The village people will say "join a village" and pretty soon the PVP people will arrive and say "just PVP to protect the highways and enclosures". Meanwhile, the overwhelming majority of this game's future players - solo PVE players - won't make it to the premium stage. Maybe it will stand as a monument to what happens when you don't understand who your customers are

 

I disagree with removing legal perimeters but it will be done. If they don't join a village, you have already seen that some folks think a griefing lesson is well deserved. We need them to stay for the future of Wurm. For them to stay, they are going to have to enjoy it. I don't think too many of us enjoy being griefed out of the portal and beyond. If this is going to be done, there has to be something to keep them here. Being forced onto a village as a possible virtual slave sucks almost as bad as being hunted by the hounds but at least a village will be able to somewhat shelter them and give them time to learn.

[rixk 830]

There was a reason, why these rules were put in place. Just think back, why.. and then think, is it good idea to remove them..

[Shiraek 464]

I disagree with removing legal perimeters but it will be done. If they don't join a village, you have already seen that some folks think a griefing lesson is well deserved. We need them to stay for the future of Wurm. For them to stay, they are going to have to enjoy it. I don't think too many of us enjoy being griefed out of the portal and beyond. If this is going to be done, there has to be something to keep them here. Being forced onto a village as a possible virtual slave sucks almost as bad as being hunted by the hounds but at least a village will be able to somewhat shelter them and give them time to learn.

 

I don't see it. Do you really think most people come to game like this to live on someone ELSE's land? Nearly everyone wants their own place, and they are going to build it in the wilderness unless they're prevented from doing that. They AREN'T going to fork out $$$$$$$$$$$ for premium AND a deed form just to try the game out. Nobody will do that until they're well and truly hooked, and a little enclosure will do that to ya.

[Audrel 2,223]

I don't see it. Do you really think most people come to game like this to live on someone ELSE's land? Nearly everyone wants their own place, and they are going to build it in the wilderness unless they're prevented from doing that. They AREN'T going to fork out $$$$$$$$$$$ for premium AND a deed form just to try the game out. Nobody will do that until they're well and truly hooked, and a little enclosure will do that to ya.

 

Rolf has stated before he wants them gone. He basically said you have one month to prepare for them being gone. People above have stated that they think they should be griefed err coaxed into paid protection errr supporting the game. I think this is a very bad decision. But what do I know? They seem to happen at ever shortening intervals these days. I do know if they are not protected outside of a village or off of a deed, they won't stay to play. What other suggestion is there?

[Aldur 651]

I've personally made a lot of highways north of Esert (Exodus), maintained them, cared for keeping them lit and passable, inspecting and reporting as soon as someone broke them.

 

There used to be a time, where part of one of our highways wasn't completed (meaning was just a road). It was a part made on a high slope and took a lot of work to make, which was obvious at first glance. Despite that, someone has once dug it down, to expand his farm. We've had to rebuild it and soon after converted entire line into a proper highway, to bring it under this very protection.

 

If something like that could happen, then after protection is lifted, I don't see how any road can be considered safe from griefing or those who plunk deeds on a whim and remodel entire surroundings "because they can". There will be no way to protect them, we can't just grab arms and raze offenders on Freedom, you know. If they put a deed or even a house, we have to live with it.

[Chiqa 742]

I'm loving this.

 

Enclosures have been abused by older players since they were added, i feel sorry for the newbies that can no longer use this feature, but blame the older players for that, they do landgrabbing and sometimes you see huge enclosures. This is im my opinion a abuse of the system as it was supposed to help the new players around. When i see a 50x50 or a 100x100 enclosure my fingers start to tickle, i just want to bash in. Looks like finally now, i can! (well, a month from now:))

 

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

[Ballad 79]

  If you think this will be LESS work for you and your GM team, you have a very limited imagination.

 

There will be way less work for GMs, since there will be way less players left. I won't put anymore money into the game (and I'm the lazy type, who doesn't make money in game, but is buying silver from site), could as well throw them out of the window.

 

Could very well remove the entire Freedom and call Wurm a PvP game. People are playing on Freedom because they want safety; safety will be removed along with legal enclosures. What's the difference between PvE and PvP if on both cases anyone can get on your "property"?

 

But who cares? all Rolf wants Rolf gets, he's trying hard to make griefing legal in any form (see the "Jumping and flying" thread), and maybe eventually "legalise" PvP-ing all over. Bah.

[joedobo 1,187]

Highway protection....there was nothing wrong with road protection rod mentioned a couple years back. If someone wants to designate land as something they should pay just like deeds.

--The cost should reflect how it acts regarding blocking other player's actions. Does it act similar to a house, perimeter or a village tile?

--The protection should wear off in a few months.

-- There should be some logic to make sure its being used on a road. Is it 2 or 3 tiles wide and long?

-- (this one probably isn't very simple but it is kinda needed). Add a protection ownership marker for every 25 tiles stretch of road. The point of these is very similar houses. With houses deeds control who can build houses and deeds must have writs to deed over houses. The marker is a way to add permission and exchange ownership of that stretch of road. .

 

enclosures...I think the problem here is people are fencing off too large of areas.

-- Let players plan an area similar to how we plan houses.

--The player would be limited in how many tiles they can plan.

-- limit the general shape so people can't do silly things like make straight one tiles lines.

-- An enclosure area would be very similar to a house when its comes to protections: no bashing fences or wall, no deeding over (but others can perimeter over).

-- creatures don't spawn inside it.

-- enclosure is free and anyone can make one. I'm not sure how many enclosures a player can have. Nor do I know about being in a deed and having an enclosures. It wouldn't be that hard to make a bunch of f2p alts making limits not very effective. But if there are no limits then you can daisy chain them together putting us back to giant areas sectioned off for free.

[Weponsmith 36]

Aye, wurm is on a downhill spiral that is for sure. It looks to me like Rolf is slowly weeding out the work his GM team needs to do (By removing rules so players have no ground to Ticket something) while at the same time making it harder for new players and bulling his existing players into paying more. Combine that with a 60% price increase that was not worth it compared to what has been added into the game, its getting to the point where one must wonder if someone wants Wurm to self destruct. (And sure, flashy things are nice, but when I pay 60% more I expected overall game performance to go up, not down.) Top it off with over active forum mods removing posts which express distaste with the way things are heading and you have a pretty solid recipe for a long slow burnout. 

I don't think its a coincidence that a lot of high value things are starting to crop up for sale atm, Its better to salvage now and not take a complete loss when the final straw gets broken.