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Rolf

Suggested changes to enclosure and highway rules

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I've never been a fan of highways for two main reasons.


 


First, the highway rule concerning not being allowed to KOS players if your deed happens to cover part of a Highway.


Second, highways being arbitrarily built for the purposes of blocking legal deed expansion / highways being constructed by individuals without consent of local deeds and automatically "protected" from interference because it's a highway whether you want it or not.


 


Both of these are frankly terrible so doing away with the highway rule is a good thing.


 


That said, highways are useful for getting around so I would suggest than any existing highways that are deeded over must keep the highway portion of the deed clear for passage - so no gates or anything to trap anyone on KOS that passes by. 


 


At the same time we should avoid situations where deeds block reasonable access to the world or force people to take massive detours. Every traveler should be able to pass by a deed on one side or another without being blocked. It doesn't necessarily need to be a path or highway just clear of man made obstructions so people can get passed.


 


Severing of existing highway connections should be ok as long as there are existing or alternative routes along the path that people can traverse. I would say priority decision whether to alter a route or not should goto the deed(s) closest to it if they aren't already bordering / within said deed.


 


My thoughts as someone annoyed with highways randomly popping up everywhere and also having had them used against him as a griefing tool.

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The enclosure rule has been being abused for a long time, I've seen people fence off huge tracts of land that is not anywhere near their respective deeds' perimeter. When the fences are bashed, the 'owner' of said blockade complains, dragging a GM into what escalates into a mud slinging match. Often, the GM finds themselves playing devils advocate between two 'warring' parties, and that should not be happening. 


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I'm loving this.

 

Enclosures have been abused by older players since they were added, i feel sorry for the newbies that can no longer use this feature, but blame the older players for that, they do landgrabbing and sometimes you see huge enclosures. This is im my opinion a abuse of the system as it was supposed to help the new players around. When i see a 50x50 or a 100x100 enclosure my fingers start to tickle, i just want to bash in. Looks like finally now, i can! (well, a month from now:))

 

The highway rule however, yeah we need a solution for that. Some roads or areas are already so borked they are almost inaccessable by horse, and you have to climb around. BUT this is also often an issue caused by a huge enclosure grabbing land for no real use. (Most enclosures you see are full of trees because it is not being used).

 

No idea about a coding solution, seems to be impossible to code in a highway... has to be player/GM :(

 

Ummm, so my tree farm isn't being used?   Perhaps you don't build many charcoal piles?

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Legal enclosure removal doesn't bother me in the slightest, advanced warning much appreciated to give people keeping animals/etc in those time to make new arrangements.


 


The highway issue is going to cause hell in the other direction as much as it is in the current one today. Being able to drop a deed or high quality fences on a highway and block off access opens up the game to griefing. Being able to plop yourself down on your neighbours driveway and completely cut off access is going to cause hell.


 


The whole situation makes me uneasy, even if we had some form of reinforced tiling, it still means someone can ruin an area for other players and there's no way for them to defend themselves. It will reduce work for GMs yes, but the can of worms it opens will still cause mudslinging.


Edited by Sevenless

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As for enclosures, time to do away with them properly. Deed it or lose it. Im sick to death of people claiming large areas of land by putting down a 1x1 shack and building a fence and claiming it's their land without ever spending a silver on it. If you want a lot of land, spend the money to enable it and pay the premium for the upkeep. 


 


Trial players need a static 6x6 camp / model or something they can level the land for, build with simple resources to act as a house and enclosure for a few days before popping while they try the game out and decide whether or not to go prem. This needs doing to stop rampant shack building and enclosures springing up everywhere that takes weeks to fall apart which also contributes to the larger problem.


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How exactly does removal of the enclosure rule stop people from grabbing large chunks of land.  Still seems to me that it's the new players that will have their enclosured broken into.  Older players are protected due to high quality walls and the ability to make double or triple sets of walls. 


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Re Highways, if a way to designate a highway comes up, then you would not be able to plonk fences across it or buildings on it.


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Why both?   Most everybody seems to agree that enclosure is being abused and highways are good.   If not having to enforce one (enclosures) frees up more time for road issues


 


 


I love the roads... don't like the enclosures


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>>>>>>I am posting as a player, not as a member of staff<<<<<<


 


add a new paving tile "highway paver"  uses 25 or 30 kg of shards and requires 21 stonecutting to create. (make the difficulty to create them fairly low however, the limit is to keep them from being spammed by throwaway accounts just to cause hassle)


 


activate a highway paver and right click on a cobblestone to make a highway tile. requires 15 paving and 20 digging to place OR remove, with the following additional restrictions:


     - Highway tiles can only be placed on an existing settlement token tile, OR so that they share a border with an existing highway tile:


     - The player placing the highway tile (or removing it) MUST be a member of a deed connected to that tile by a continuous path of other highway tiles, this path must be under XXX tiles in length. ( i would suggest 200 tiles for the length of the path, but that is obviously open for debate).


     - Deeds will have a new permission for "paving highways" that can be applied to allies or citizens, but not to non-citizens. This permission must be enabled for players to place or remove the highway tiles on deed and on connected highways. 


 


     - decay:  the game would periodically check to see if highway tiles were connected to an active deed token within XXX tiles (same as the radius to create/remove them)  if the tile is NOT connected for 2 consecutive checks (maybe they get checked every monday), it would revert to normal cobblestone. 


 


This would mean that:


 highways would HAVE to start at a deed token, and would need to be connected to other deeds along the route in order to continue to be built. Connections to deeds would need to be maintained as well in order to maintain the road. 


 


>>>>>>I am posting as a player, not as a member of staff<<<<<<

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10x10 is 100 tiles, new players doesn't need that much >_> ...


 


How exactly does removal of the enclosure rule stop people from grabbing large chunks of land.  Still seems to me that it's the new players that will have their enclosured broken into.  Older players are protected due to high quality walls and the ability to make double or triple sets of walls. 

 



It means people can bash one wall, get in, and deed it.


Edited by rosedragon

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I think most player will have respect for "good" roads i don't think it will be that big of an issue. As long as i can get past an area i am fine i dont spend a lot of time on roads anyway i use cut off routes all the time. 


Edited by Kegan
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Ok how about this guys ....let us all Expand our deeds in 1 direction.....and also make Perimeter protected just like deeded land (Whats the point in perimeter anyway if it's not protected....we are paying for it after all - over 5 tiles anyway).


 


This way anyone that wants / needs there off-deed enclosures - Farmers / animal breeders can keep them....at a price - more perimeter cost.


They can just expand the perimeter in 1 direction to cover there land they have worked on for the last how many months / years.


 


Land hoggers would soon give up land if they have to pay for it and if it's way off from there deed.....more money into the game is good for everyone but players that truly need there off- deed land would not be hit in the pocket as much if they didn't have to deed it.


 


Plus deeding the off-deed land next to your main deed would leave a 10 tile wide None Protected Perimeter right through the middle...


NOT a good thing in my book :S


Edited by Garit

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kegan, the highway rules were not added for most players, they were added to allow GM's to deal with the few (blanks) that will destroy a nice public access to an area just because they can.


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Highways need to be protected.


 


Solution:


Submit proposed highway for asphalt paving (cannot be destroyed), Signs posted at start and end of road.


After 7 days wait period, GM paves proposed section with asphalt.


Asphalt could be coded to be faster...


Asphalt roads need to be 2 tiles wide min.


 


There's not many roads on each server, within a month this could be done.


 


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10x10 is 100 tiles, new players doesn't need that much >_> ...

 

It means people can bash one wall, get in, and deed it.

 

Why can't the deed it already?   Since they can throw the deed down on the road outside the fence?  As a matter of fact I have seen this.  Throw a settlement deed down on a road then bash a wall easily and claim the wall wasn't there in the first place, thus no enclosure.   

 

As far as protecting from this kind of attack all that needs to be done is to put up a couple of sentry houses inside the enclosure, can't deed over a house. 

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what if you make a highway form you can buy at a trader, it allows you for example to cover a 100 tile 3 tile wide road for a month, in the last week of that month the owner/caretaker of that highway will get a warning every time he logs in to renew his form for another month (only one month at a time). after the month is up a sign could go up on both sides of the highway that the highway is now for sale and still protected for a month. this way if for example the player that owned the highway stopped playing it gives someone else the chance to keep it protected. if after the second month the highway isn't bought yet the protection will be gone and people can now terraform or destroy the road.

not sure how hard this is to code, but its a good way to put the whole highway issue in the players hands

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Nobody said it yet, me thinks it needs to be said here.... I'm not supposed to come out from under my rock, but you kicked it...

 

Legal Enclosures soon gone... Check. Road Protection Rules soon gone... Check.... but some Roads do need protections....

 

Keep the Heritage system in place and functional. Use the Heritage system to protect true heavily used and much needed Highways and transportation routes. No need for a new mechanic to protect important roads. Let the Players lobby for Heritage approval as they do already. When a Road/Highway is important enough to be protected there will be enough Players that request for the Devs to take notice and action. Simple.

 

and Thank you for warning us Rolf. That's what we need right there. Now we can prepare and if we don't the blame is on us Players ourselves.

 

Going back under my rock now.

^This^

 

Simple to understand and easy enough to implement

 

Don't complicate things with special tiles that can't be destroyed, that's just greifing waiting to happen.

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Enclosure rule needs to stay.


Many players have animals like Hell horses or aggro animals off deed for safety reason.


 


My solution is increase the decay rate to off deed wall/building. This should deter the land grabbers.


The new player only needs a temporary place so decay should not affect them much...


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Ok how about this guys ....let us all Expand our deeds in 1 direction.....and also make Perimeter protected just like deeded land (Whats the point in perimeter anyway if it's not protected....we are paying for it after all - over 5 tiles anyway).

 

This way anyone that wants / needs there off-deed enclosures - Farmers / animal breeders can keep them....at a price - more perimeter cost.

They can just expand the perimeter in 1 direction to cover there land they have worked on for the last how many months / years.

 

Land hoggers would soon give up land if they have to pay for it and if it's way off from there deed.....more money into the game is good for everyone but players that truly need there off- deed land would not be hit in the pocket as much if they didn't have to deed it.

 

Plus deeding the off-deed land next to your main deed would leave a 10 tile wide None Protected Perimeter right through the middle...

NOT a good thing in my book :S

Deed expansion changes would make a lot of people happy! As would lowering the cost of deeds, just a tiny bit, at least when deeding over your current perimeter.

 

The highway rule thing is definitely going to result in some problems, as we have several 'legal griefers' around who will no doubt be smashing up the highway ASAP (since they 'own' both routes to this area).

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Why can't the deed it already?   Since they can throw the deed down on the road outside the fence?  As a matter of fact I have seen this.  Throw a settlement deed down on a road then bash a wall easily and claim the wall wasn't there in the first place, thus no enclosure.   

 

As far as protecting from this kind of attack all that needs to be done is to put up a couple of sentry houses inside the enclosure, can't deed over a house. 

plus the thing Rolf says.. enclosure disputes are one of the most complicated things.. think of when two enclosures of different people connected each others, or when someone overrule with deed, someone else protest.. etc..

 

Enclosure rule needs to stay.

Many players have animals like Hell horses or aggro animals off deed for safety reason.

 

You can turn off templars to only attack trolls. 

Edited by rosedragon

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Lower deed price would only make huge deeded areas and totally make the problem worse imo. It's obvious that we all have a road or 2 we want there, use everyday or even built by hand with our own hours. Many players base their deed into a main road and work off the road and on each side of it. Many also respect the road and the travelers on it. I have seen all sorts of grief on road, dropping dirt, digging it up, rerouting them and so forth.

Option A: Cool looking transit marker or neat road signs with a payment option: Set transit on each end of the road and mark both, have an upkeep just like a deed but lower cost. Most grievers spend more time than money. So it would be a toll road in a way. most major highways have large straightaways. this may also promote more direct road building in the future.

Option B: Community embraced set stones. Most areas with major roads are nicely made and usually have a good amount of players and deeds along them, how about a fancy tile that can be set and marked with the names of major long term player and community members, villages and such.

Hence a marker tile at 10-100 tiles, Tile one set at one end marked by a number of player, then another set in 10-100 tiles away, Each tiles set has to have a set number of player sign the tile in an agreement that it's a road for all the community. Have the tile markers have a set duration 6 months-1 year and have to be renewed. 10 players must then reset the stone and all sign off on the tile marker again. Having a bunch of players activate a highway will stop single players from interfering with major roads. The number of players could be 5-10 possibly, So this way it's about the community protecting the roads, not just a player or 2 guarding a highway that stretches out of their reach and power to maintain. "Community stone" or corner stone could be difficult to make taking a group effort and need to be put together by a group of players. The stone could even need to be marked by a GM for blessings.

Pros and cons:

cons: The road would not be deedable existing deeds would be exempt, The players that sign on the road leave move or other wise quit. Renewing the stone would be done every 6 months to a year.

Pros: Community stones could be changed out and set by a new group of players at the end of their time, the names don't have to be the same as long as they're the amount needed and at least one name is the same. these "corner stones" can only be made by premium players. Examining the tile will give a full list of names of players involved. perhaps the more names the longer the road can last.

Edited by zalifear
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The only idea I can come up with that cant be abused is simply an item given to new players.


 


Land Claim Stake (untradeable): Item given to new accounts that could be used to drop a deed like claim over a full size 5x5 (this is including the tile the stake is on) with no perimeter. It would be controlled and limited to only accounts on the friends list that staked the claim and are no older than 1 month and would be capped for X amount of time before disappearing (IE 1 week) so that the player could learn to play the game and have time to decide if they will keep playing or deed the land. After the time is up a short cool-down period (IE 12-24 hours) could be given to block others from deeding over the spot except for the one who staked the claim. During this time the only protection given is deeding except by the one who staked the claim.


 


stock-photo-stake-your-claim-94255036.jp


Edited by Rasu
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5 x 5 is a good idea. My suggestion was a little large. :) Need more caffeine this early.


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You code - we play, these changes will just cause more grief than it cures!!!


If the GMs are having a hard time or are inconsistent, that is not a player issue! (they and the FCC & other rules do appear to be at odds)


 


First change has to be made to deeds to fix some of the reasons behind land grabs, then 0 Perimeter options, & an expand in 1 direction option


 


Highways need to be protected, except where they are obviously intended to grief someone, and they need to have lower spawn rates than they do in places after recent changes.


 


-1 for this idea, this is a step too far, I want to enjoy the game not get grief from both players and staff!


Edited by Branvas
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Another decision Rolf will soon regret when the number of support calls soar as griefing becomes common practice.


Remove highway protection and i admit myself ill tear up roads that are built near my deed i dont like. At the same time the eye for an eye practice will come into play.. you tear up my road or smash my fence im going to have to retaliate... the GM's will never have a moments rest when everyones griefing each other...


 


Rolf while your at it just implement pvp on freedom so i can kill anyone and everyone in my local. 


 


Also my enclosure that myself and my alliance use took weeks to build (and no im not land grabbing its not even in a populated area) id liek reimbursement for the time and effort put into building it afterall i guarantee it'll get smashed up/ busted into by someone just because they can with this rule change. So Rolf no offence but i suggest you sit back and have a long long think about how much thisll affect Wurm, maybe play it for awhile and see things from a non - GM perspective.


 


If this change is implemented i can see wurm becoming more about griefing than building. Maybe rolf is after money? larger deeds? maybe not but this is defently a step backwards for wurm. You have effectively given freedom an ultimatum.... do your job for you or you intend to just remove the protection all together... nice.


 


Now i see why peopel used to say you only care for the pvp side of wurm.


Edited by Crack
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