Suggested changes to enclosure and highway rules

[Belrindor 663]

People may think 'Oh, who would break into that noob's enclosure for his 10ql pickaxe...'

 

It's not about that at all. Many times newer folks settle down right on someone's perimeter or plunk themselves right in the middle of an area's community orchard and start hacking down the grapes and fruit trees, throw up a crappy 3ql 1 x 1 and a bunch of equally crappy ql fences. This in turn highly PO's everyone around them, and someone inevitably comes in and obliterates their 'legal enclosure'. Intentionally griefing them in an attempt to get them to leave and/or quit. The funny part of all of this, is that many older players are regularly 'griefed', either intentionally or unintentionally by newer players, and they pretty much just have to suck it up.

 

This actually happened to me a while back now. We had a community orchard area between 5 deeds that was too small for anyone to deed, and blocked by other inactive deeds in two other directions. (And since we don't have mono-directional deeding, could do nothing about it.) So all of us from the 5 active deeds surrounding it, got together and planted grapes and fruit trees, etc, and turned it into an awesome little public resource.

 

Then someone came along, cut down some of our fruit trees and slapped a fence around half of our grapes and threw up a 1 x 1. Didn't talk to anyone just thought... gee... what a great spot, I'll put my house here.

 

I had to constrain the other neighbors from not outright obliterating this guy's fence so that I could open a dialogue with him. Turns out he was just new and didn't know any better.

 

Luckily they were a good person, and we were able to work something out to everyone's mutual benefit.

 

And then the NEXT new guy comes along and starts doing basically the same thing!

 

New people are sometimes like a bull in a china shop. They have no idea what they destroy by their ignorance and they think 'oh sorry I didn't know' is a get out of jail free card, so to speak. No one thinks to simply talk to the people surrounding them before they do anything. They just think they CAN do something so they DO do something.

 

I had a sign up right in my garden area that very clearly marked it as my garden. This was in my perimeter by the way, ONE TILE off deed. Someone comes along obliterates all my garden tiles, flattens all my land, cuts down like 20 of my maple trees ONE DAY before they go to sap. (Man I was PO'd...), and then tries to build a house on my mining road before figuring out that they can't build a house in my perimeter. Which, btw, is right next to ANOTHER perimeter, so they couldn't even put a 1 x 1 between it. So they then just leave everything as is, with piles of 1 - 6ql logs all over the place and then moved on, I'm assuming, to do this to someone else's area.

 

So even with a sign up and something one tile off deed that clearly shows it's part of someone's used space, people will still mess with it just because they can, and totally disrespect the people already there, if the mechanics and the rules will let them get away with it.

 

Our tutorial sucks. That's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of every new person I've talked to. I get constantly PM'd by new people saying, I just got out of the tutorial, it totally sucked, and I have no idea what I'm doing. HELP PLEASE!

 

But back to the OP. The enclosure rule will be changed or outright obliterated.

 

Highways are a totally separate issue, and though they share some similarities, should be discussed on their own merits and not meshed and wedded to the enclosure discussion.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Belrindor

[tobaul 28]

Road Suggestion.   Have Head Gm appoint and dismiss volunteer Pavers as needed, and Wurm compensate them as needed.    Staff would provide them a set of guidlines to follow, and set thier limit of authority.  The Paver would be responsible for paving surfaces, after a road is built and appoved buy those in the area and the Paver.  Gm's would handle unresolvable disputes.   His/Her paving would be indestructable except by a Paver or Gm.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Players would request a Paver during road construction.   Spent months building a road without deed approval, sorry not appoved, it will remain unprotected.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            The problem has never been the lack of roads being built, it has been obsolete roads, roads built by players inconsiderate of local deeds, and roads destroyed by griefers just for fun.  I think this would address all issues.  If a player desires and enjoys the job I belive they would be careful to keep it.  The FCC provides a basic protection to all players, this would reinforce that, and over time all important roads would become secured.

 

We all know that gm approved roads would be wonderful but lets face it, that would be a never ending job for them that would pull them from things we really need them for. This, to me, puts the burden of courtesy on the road builders.

 

Perhaps this is not doable but will spark a better idea.

Edited April 16, 2014 by tobaul

[Xandra 353]

Hi,

 

[...] I don't think anyone wauld take the time to smash the walls down to steal his QL10 pickaxe etc.[...]

Ppl have done this already, not once, and will continue to do this. It's not uncommon, bad folks are to be expected. We need rules to keep them within the boundaries, right?

I've written elaborate proposals now, twice, and each time this poor parody of a forum software ate my texts. Tired of it, now.

This problem urgently asks for a well-thought solution. Too bad, when the forum software cannot offer the possibilities to discuss this - I'm very sure I'm not the only one that gave up due to sheer software madness.

Have fun!

[Druidnature 1,118]

Hi,

 

Ppl have done this already, not once, and will continue to do this. It's not uncommon, bad folks are to be expected. We need rules to keep them within the boundaries, right?

I've written elaborate proposals now, twice, and each time this poor parody of a forum software ate my texts. Tired of it, now.

This problem urgently asks for a well-thought solution. Too bad, when the forum software cannot offer the possibilities to discuss this - I'm very sure I'm not the only one that gave up due to sheer software madness.

Have fun!

 

This is why I always highly suggest copying before posting, Or even better (what I do when writing a huge wall of text) Use notepad++ (you could just use regular notepad, however ++ is a bit better)

 

That way, you won't have to worry about online connection, wurm eating your text, or anytihng else....It's saved on your computer 

[Depends 220]

My road suggestion is to leave it the way it is and let the 35+ GMs along with the support of the 30ish CMs handle it.

I still can't figure out how such a large ratio of GMs to players struggle to field the calls in such a sparsely populated game.

And if this all is in the interest of future proofing for when large herds of new players start rolling in and a game mechanic is needed, why do we need a rush decision right now when it isn't?

[Druidnature 1,118]

My road suggestion is to leave it the way it is and let the 35+ GMs along with the support of the 30ish CMs handle it.

I still can't figure out how such a large ratio of GMs to players struggle to field the calls in such a sparsely populated game.

And if this all is in the interest of future proofing for when large herds of new players start rolling in and a game mechanic is needed, why do we need a rush decision right now when it isn't?

 

Going to go out on a limb and say it's likely due to how much permision the gms, or cms, have.  each one probably has to go to 1-3 main gm's about the issue, then they have to give the yes/no to handle it...

 

I'm obviously guessing here, but from what I've seen, it's likely how there system works, Whether that's a good good system or not, isn't really for me to say, it all depends on if they think it's working or not.

[Depends 220]

Going to go out on a limb and say it's likely due to how much permision the gms, or cms, have.  each one probably has to go to 1-3 main gm's about the issue, then they have to give the yes/no to handle it...

 

I'm obviously guessing here, but from what I've seen, it's likely how there system works, Whether that's a good good system or not, isn't really for me to say, it all depends on if they think it's working or not.

Permissions to tell a player "hey stop that"?

They've always done that, whether they were right or wrong.

I'm talking specifically about decisions on road issues which is usually just a judgment call based on the rules and an easy guess at who is being the jerk.

[JudusX 199]

The highway rule was  by far the worst rule. i remember the fight we had a few years ago about it and we were shut down because the GM's said the scenarios we were talking about would never happen.....guess they were wrong? If i found someone purposely trying to destroy the main roads i would just release a champ bear next to him or have the neighbor drag his champ troll down and murder him. I think there will be less instances of people destroying highways than people fear.

 

As far as the enclosure rule, how do you expect people to want to play wurm if they cant keep items safe? Especially when they first start.

[FireWalker 12]

The enclosure rule needs to go away. What was a great idea to help new players out has turned into an exploit that allows land to be taken with out deeding. I have seen very large enclosures on different servers that are not the work of new players with low QL fencing but the work of exp players.

 

Everyone is worried about how getting rid of the enclosure rule will hurt new players but imo keeping the rule is hurting them. How is the rule hurting them? The rule is hurting them by allowing other players the right to take land with out deeding it. Now there is less land for a new player to have the chance to deed.

 

If people are really so worried that getting rid of the enclosure rule will hurt new players so much, than instead of writing page after page of how bad it will hurt them why not invite the people you are worried about in to your villages and give them real help? And not use them as slave labor.

[Mordraug 2,542]

 

If people are really so worried that getting rid of the enclosure rule will hurt new players so much, than instead of writing page after page of how bad it will hurt them why not invite the people you are worried about in to your villages and give them real help? And not use them as slave labor.

 

Because I'd be too busy filling my perimeter enclosures with hellhounds, that's why.

[enoofu 206]

The problem with the current enclosure rule is that its basically locks down the spawn zone for 10-20 min in all directions, by that time most newbies are lost and dead before they can find a place to build their first shack.

[Shidoni 84]

If people are really so worried that getting rid of the enclosure rule will hurt new players so much, than instead of writing page after page of how bad it will hurt them why not invite the people you are worried about in to your villages and give them real help? And not use them as slave labor.

I'm personally not worried about newbs. The newer ones are the rudest bunch of slackers I've seen roll through Wurm.  And I pay for a deed with a large buffer zone just so I don't have to deal with them.

 

That said, a village is not ideal for everyone and people shouldn't be forced into them just to be able to keep their one cow and cotton field safe.  The politics in joining a village and staying on the Mayor's good side is a nightmare. I didn't join Wurm to ######-foot around someone else's weird rules and kiss their ass for the right to throw up a 1x1.

 

Until we get an official word on what solutions are being considered/implemented, I'm going to try really hard to be positive.  I'm going to keep telling myself that they're going to find a solution that doesn't punish older players and doesn't confuse/OP newbs.  I'm also naked and rolling in gold in this fantasy.

[Biervampyr 97]

Because I'd be too busy filling my perimeter enclosures with hellhounds, that's why.

Hehe really nice idea! :-)

/notice to myself: capture hellhounds for perimeter

[Shiraek 464]

These suggestions of a "committee" deciding highways are in themselves a highway to hell. Committee = a bureaucrazy set up via popularity contest? I could do without waiting for weeks before starting my new highway while the "committee" deliberates it, and then what, tells me not to because one of their friends lives near me and doesn't want the road when the other six neighbours do? No thanks!

 

I would love a 'rule of thumb' that highways not be placed to close together though, that's a good idea - but it could've been added to the current FCC so meh.

[Lotus1 315]

I think changing the highway rules will be the start of the decline of the game. If we can't maintain our highways, how can we expect transport via land to be feasible and constant? This is a big part of the game you're suggesting to take away.

 

If this is mostly a problem for GMs, why not hire staff specifically for highway approval? You don't need to train these people on other GM functions, just anything to do with highways.

[Audrel 2,223]

Because I'd be too busy filling my perimeter enclosures with hellhounds, that's why.

 

It works too. That's one "cow" that one guy way back when didn't steal. hahaha

[Evening 2,302]

Soo .. couple days ago I had a "new player" stumbling upon my deed.

 

(Note I didn't fence my entire perimeter, just what I needed for grazers).

 

He found a nice spot - my maple trees farm, decided he liked it, and without asking anyone in local, started to chop them.

 

When I told him the spot is on my perimeter and he can't build there, he said "it was your land, now I claimed it and IS MINE!".

 

And when he realised he couldn't build there, he decided to chop all the maples just to "spit on me" before moving away.

 

As Shidoni said, "The newer ones are the rudest bunch of slackers I've seen roll through Wurm." Just wait until they will "have the right" to break in into someone's enclosure.

 

Instead of removing enclosures, Rolf, how would it be to get rid of those "trader deeds" which take available spots along the coasts, many times being placed on a road, with their trader shack making travelling around a pain? that isn't land hoarding, since someone who could deed there AND use the land can't do it?

[Evening 2,302]

The problem with the current enclosure rule is that its basically locks down the spawn zone for 10-20 min in all directions, by that time most newbies are lost and dead before they can find a place to build their first shack.

 

So what you say is nobody should build anything for 10-20 minutes around the spawn zone to give noobs a place to build?

 

Where is your logic? those noobs will fence that area faster then you could say "most newbies are lost and dead before they can find a place", so that area will still be fenced, and newer newbs will have to get lost and dead anyway.

[rosedragon 2,282]

Soo .. couple days ago I had a "new player" stumbling upon my deed.

 

(Note I didn't fence my entire perimeter, just what I needed for grazers).

 

He found a nice spot - my maple trees farm, decided he liked it, and without asking anyone in local, started to chop them.

 

When I told him the spot is on my perimeter and he can't build there, he said "it was your land, now I claimed it and IS MINE!".

 

And when he realised he couldn't build there, he decided to chop all the maples just to "spit on me" before moving away.

 

As Shidoni said, "The newer ones are the rudest bunch of slackers I've seen roll through Wurm." Just wait until they will "have the right" to break in into someone's enclosure.

 

Instead of removing enclosures, Rolf, how would it be to get rid of those "trader deeds" which take available spots along the coasts, many times being placed on a road, with their trader shack making travelling around a pain? that isn't land hoarding, since someone who could deed there AND use the land can't do it?

most of these type of newbies doesn't pass 'buying premium'. You would have to be worried more when in dispute with fellow veteran that knows what illegal and what is not. At least we got FCC.

[enoofu 206]

So what you say is nobody should build anything for 10-20 minutes around the spawn zone to give noobs a place to build?

 

Where is your logic? those noobs will fence that area faster then you could say "most newbies are lost and dead before they can find a place", so that area will still be fenced, and newer newbs will have to get lost and dead anyway.

I'm not saying that, just that the immediate area around the spawn (Want current spawns moved) should be a lot more open, and not Deedable, and limit walls and houses to no more then 2-5 QL (But be protected from bashing), so newbies have a place to say but would move away when they have a chance.

 

The system we have now in some cases forces Newbies to either swim usually to their deaths, build on someone enclosure, or go out 15-20 minutes, and by then they either get robbed, or killed, or get stuck inside a fence.

[Mordraug 2,542]

The FCC is the main problem.

 

"A set of suggestions that may or may not be enforced, all based on a very very subjective approach".

 

So yes, GM's are having trouble enforcing the FCC... now if we had RULES....

 

"Smash this, you get such penalty.  Break that, you get such other penalty.  You've been warned, have a nice day."

[Evening 2,302]

I'm not saying that, just that the immediate area around the spawn (Want current spawns moved) should be a lot more open, and not Deedable, and limit walls and houses to no more then 2-5 QL (But be protected from bashing), so newbies have a place to say but would move away when they have a chance.

 

The system we have now in some cases forces Newbies to either swim usually to their deaths, build on someone enclosure, or go out 15-20 minutes, and by then they either get robbed, or killed, or get stuck inside a fence.

 

When I started to play, I wandered for about a week before I found my place in the game. I died at least 20 times, I lost my precious ql 1 iron ore and my chain boots I worked about 6 hours to make. I seen the server from north to south, and from west to east.

 

Who says a newb has to live 10 minutes away from the starting point?

 

90% of new players are destructive and aggressive when you try to say something to them. From those 90%, maybe 5% will keep on playing and - maybe - will realise their attitude is wrong. 

 

First things they will do will be to leave a mess around, destroy the area they will inhabit for a very short period of time and, assuming they will be in game for more than 2 days, they will start destroying roads and public mines entrances. I've seen this countless times.

 

The starting point and its surroundings should be a nice, well maintained area, to show those newbs what they can do in game - positive things they can do in game!! First thing I seen when I dared to move outside starting area was a deed named "Smoke's Playground". I was staring at it, walked around it (yes, tried to get in to see it closer) and finally, after 20 minutes or so, I made it to close my mouth. It was beautiful and inspiring. And right outside the starting area.

 

Then I walked away, and after about another 5 minutes I started to find abandoned 1x1 sheds, beds lying on the ground, piles of logs and junk. That wasn't nice anymore, but it was very close to the starting point.

 

Long story short, I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. The starting point has to look good, because when you're visiting a new place you don't want to see the trash heap. Sooner or later, you will get to that anyway.

 

I could support a village maintained by devs, where newbs could live 1-2 weeks, something similar to The Academy, but belonging to the game itself, not to some players.

Other than that, I can't agree with what you suggest.

 

The system we have now doesn't teach new players a bean, the tutorial is useless and confusing, and nothing tells new players they can't build on a perimeter, they shouldn't destroy roads once their body strength hit 20 or they should use their common sense when deciding to do something in the game.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Evening

[Jenshiye 146]

When and what is happening? Also, why are you hiding from IRC? Good to "see" the head of the game and be approachable. Anyone gives suggestions just say, "Put it in the suggestions thread"

 

About that also; where is this committee and what are they doing?

[Smokes 268]

The starting point and its surroundings should be a nice, well maintained area, to show those newbs what they can do in game - positive things they can do in game!! First thing I seen when I dared to move outside starting area was a deed named "Smoke's Playground". I was staring at it, walked around it (yes, tried to get in to see it closer) and finally, after 20 minutes or so, I made it to close my mouth. It was beautiful and inspiring. And right outside the starting area.

 

 

Thank you for your kind words Evening

[leaf 283]

So what are we doing instead of fences now?  1x15 houses I guess, but what do we make on the tile between the houses?  Lava comes to mind but player made lava doesn't last long at all.  Maybe a mine entrance and reinforce all the walls.

 

Thoughts on what to put between the houses to keep people out?