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Rolf

Suggested changes to enclosure and highway rules

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People enclose way to large areas, it is so now and it has been so since i started playing the game. So the enclosure rule i see as a good thing that its gone and hopefully replaced by a ingame machanic.


 


The highway rule i dont see as a good thing that it will change, the only way i see my roads being safe are that they will be protected by game rules or ingame mechanics. And ingame mechanics i dont see as a resonable way as you would need to put an owner and such data on every single tile. And that is just the beginning of the issues of how to protect the roads... i know there are atleast on player near me that will tear my nicely flat and streight roads to hell.


 


He/She have been trying everything else to grief me and a few other players so it would give a good oppertunity to grief with the gm:s/the rules in the their favor.


 


So the highway rule i dont see a good way to change it so people wont be griefed.


 


I where in the game when Rolf decided to allow wild to goto jk-home and mr-home and do pvp, this ended up as a disaster and indipendence came to be and many players started to leave the game and many other threatend to do the same. This will have the same effect, lots of player will leave the game if they see all their hard work destroyed by griefers.


 


And i am kind of inbetween if i stay or not after my carefully planned (and negotiated with all the players along the highway to get the best route) highways get destroyed by griefers. Its real easy really, if the highway solution sucks bad enough i  wont stay around in the game anymore.


Edited by Daash

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The system for highways is poor, most highways are confusing, since they are poorly designed.


 


I rather each server have elected members of the community do highways designs and be a different color then normal roads 


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no,gm's get paid.guides dont. among other things all gm's have to live in san diego since i dont remember when.i was a gm on bert. i left when they tried to shuffle me off to freerealms

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Hello everyone.

 

Only reason we devs have not been responding to any greater extent in this thread is that it was meant for feedback from you to us.

Therefore it needed some time to generate answers obviously.

But we are going to be looking into it now to sort out the gems.

 

There are of course as was previously stated reasons behind why we need a change like this.

But how we are going about it is not set in stone and hence this thread.

 

We also wanted this to trigger your thoughts in advance so you can be more prepared that a change is coming.

How it will finally materialize is yet to be decided, though it will affect how the enclosures and highways are currently handled.

 

I do appreciate any change to the enclosure rule will affect many.

I am certain we will find a solution for the new players.

For those of you who are sitting on those huge areas, the aim is to find some middle ground we can transition into.

 

But please do try to think creatively to solve it from your perspective as well.

 

I mean, if a landowner comes to your family's house out in the countryside to tell you that you have fenced of a major area which is prime real estate, up for sale.

Do you up and leave your home or just adapt and move the fence to the lot you have bought?

I for one might initially nurture the thought to start building some type of castle like fortification around the whole thing screaming at anyone getting to close.

But in the end it is not about the space, it is about doing the most with what you got.

 

Will update you further when we have been able to go through this giant of a thread.

Talk to you later Wurmians!

 

Your dealing with two different issues here. In real life there is no rule (law) that gives you the right to do so, so at that point you do it at your own risk and if someone sells it, the new owners have right to take ownership.

 

In Wurm, there is a Rule (law) that allows us to do this very thing. Thus we are protected from it being sold and claimed.

 

Regardless of if it is how it was intended, it is the fault of the rule makers for not having it clear. Those that followed the rules should not be punished for doing so.

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no,gm's get paid.guides dont. among other things all gm's have to live in san diego since i dont remember when.i was a gm on bert. i left when they tried to shuffle me off to freerealms

That's funny cause I was a GM on Tarew Marr for 7 years and lived in N.C. not San Diego And I was not on payrole.

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That's funny cause I was a GM on Tarew Marr for 7 years and lived in N.C. not San Diego And I was not on payrole.

Not to take this too much further off-topic, but a GM title was not always a GM.  The titles used were (a lot times) vanity titles for volunteer positions, I mean come on, look at this list of code supported roles (which could be applied to any title):

  • Steward

Apprentice Guide

Guide

QuestTroupe

GM-Tester

Eq Support

GM-Staff

GM-Admin

GM-Lead admin

Quest Master

GM-Areas

GM-Coder

GM-Mgmt

GM-Impossible (ignore this one, it was there, but yea...)

Some positions were paid, some were not.  Most of the "lower grade" positions were unpaid/volunteer positions, once you stopped having to ask others to make changes to a player character (or major changes/area resets), you were generally in a paid role or received a comp'd account.

 

Back to the original topic, I think it's time to let it go.  31 pages, no official statement on what is actually planned and how it will be addressed, I doubt we'll see more until Rolf/CodeClub make an official policy/code change decision.

Edited by Hussars
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Maybe a easy change to help newbies protect some cattle is to allow hitching at any level, so they can hitch cattle to large carts


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I have no problem with removing the enclosure rule.


I understand the newbie problem this would add, but lets be frank...most of these totally massive land-grabs using enclosure rule is not done by newbies.


If a newbie puts upp a fence around his house, I don't think anyone wauld take the time to smash the walls down to steal his QL10 pickaxe etc.


 


If we want more land than we pay for, we'll just have to understand it can be ransacked. I see no problem.


 


Removing the highway rule may be abit more of a problem, since it may become a major griefing thing (closing off access to an area, KOSing everyone etc). Not sure about that.


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Given the screenshots of Xan now, I really hope enclosure rules are gone or severely limited before it launches, lest people fence off all that beautiful countryside.


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Gee I missed 608 replies to this.


 


Opinion #609>>


 


Enclosures need to go; you can do it but need to maintain the fences and there is no law except karma to stop people breaking in.


 


Highways need to stay; either a highway tile or highway/road curb that makes it permanent. I actually liked the highway deed idea, using mile markers or some such that will protect the highway and one tile either side. A local road version should be available, maybe?



Thanks


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I agree they could make the highway tiles very hard to make so they are not just spammed or even make them cost coin to place each one.


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public tunnels, highways, channels, mines and other public offdeed places need to be protected...  that is all what is inportend in wurm community...  


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Since they doing away with Enclosures they need to do away with highway protection. If someone comes in and buys the land a tunnel or highway is on they paid for that land so they should be able to do anything they want with such land and not be told they can't do so it all falls under deed it or lose it. Don't want to lose that hard work then deed the land. Shouldn't matter if it's a highway or a enclosure people put work into them and if they don't want to lose it then they should have to deed it like people who made Enclosures are now having to do. Fair is fair. If 1 goes they both need to go there both the same it's someone grabbing tiles they don't own.

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Since they doing away with Enclosures they need to do away with highway protection. If someone comes in and buys the land a tunnel or highway is on they paid for that land so they should be able to do anything they want with such land and not be told they can't do so it all falls under deed it or lose it. Don't want to lose that hard work then deed the land. Shouldn't matter if it's a highway or a enclosure people put work into them and if they don't want to lose it then they should have to deed it like people who made Enclosures are now having to do. Fair is fair. If 1 goes they both need to go there both the same it's someone grabbing tiles they don't own.

 

Ok sorry, but that´s just childish, so because I can have my enclosure and hoard 15k tiles you can´t have your roads.

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Ok sorry, but that´s just childish, so because I can have my enclosure and hoard 15k tiles you can´t have your roads.

Guy has been desperately grasping at straws and screaming the sky is falling for 15 or so pages now... no point in arguing with him anymore, just ignore it.

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No I have no grasped at straws. Do you really make this stuff up as you go along sounds like borrowed old lines.

Point is if they are going to go and do something as stretched as this they might as well fix it all at one big sweep so they don't have to do crap like this later down the road.

I mean go back and completely remove the ability to drain traders and the enclosures as well as people able to claim land aka roads they do not own. This deed it or lose it crap either needs to be enforced with solid rule set or stop bring that crap up when ever it suits your cause.

By the way I'm here still putting up a fight for other's I personally have done destroyed almost every thing on my deed and off in my enclosures already I'm done with this tug of war baby childish crap people pull. I'm here to basically set the rules in stone fix your da# game and get on with it. This debate crap makes me sick cause it's one sided and started out one sided. Rolf him self is doing every thing in his power by not handy capping the pvp players and handy capping and mutilating every thing the pve players have built. You might not stick up for this part of gaming community but I will.

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If i can give my humbly opinion, probably this thread needs to be locked, at this point almost no new ideas showing up, everyone has posted here traced his line on the sand, and now the thread is going down the road to turn into a cat fight.


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Main issue is that most people don't want normal people deciding the highways system, but people want a highway system since a lot of animals can't swim and a lot of people live in shore and need roads to drop off goods.


 


Only two option is either GM's design the roads or a group of players sponsored by the community design them 

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i have visit all freedom also chaos...  most of deeds are made by water, everyone wana nice spot at sea... so i kinda hard to found nice place on servers we have now...      there is alot of space inland witch is not populated at all...   is rare that someone have deed inland... so highways are very inportend for them...


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Main issue is that most people don't want normal people deciding the highways system, but people want a highway system since a lot of animals can't swim and a lot of people live in shore and need roads to drop off goods.

 

Only two option is either GM's design the roads or a group of players sponsored by the community design them 

 

Well this is actually a really great idea. Have the community decide how the Major highway systems are laid out, get the approval from all the active deeds along the proposed path to agree to it, then have the GM's lock the tiles once the highway has been built. From here the players in a specific region can decide how they want the minor highways to connect to their deed and if some of them get griefed it's not going to disrupt the major roads used by the community at large.

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I don't think anyone wauld take the time to smash the walls down to steal his QL10 pickaxe etc.

 

 

This has happened many times before the rules were in place. Breaking into undeeded areas to kill animals and generally grief, to drive people away from settling in an area, etc.

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I have no problem with removing the enclosure rule.

I understand the newbie problem this would add, but lets be frank...most of these totally massive land-grabs using enclosure rule is not done by newbies.

If a newbie puts upp a fence around his house, I don't think anyone wauld take the time to smash the walls down to steal his QL10 pickaxe etc.

 

If we want more land than we pay for, we'll just have to understand it can be ransacked. I see no problem.

 

Removing the highway rule may be abit more of a problem, since it may become a major griefing thing (closing off access to an area, KOSing everyone etc). Not sure about that.

Methinks you don't thinks. :blink: :blink:

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That's pretty much the gist of things - High-skilled players' enclosures are more desirable to break into but low-skilled players' are easier to do so with. We like to believe that people stay out of each others' property on the PvE servers out of respect and decency, but everytime one game mechanic or the other opens up for an exploit someone darn sure is there to exploit it. It doesn't matter if it doesn't happen "that often" because those that it happens to are still screwed over and driven away from the game. We need a working solution for newbie shelters because once the legal enclosure protection goes away they are the first ones that are going to suffer the consequences. Older players with QL80 stone walls around tens of thousands of tree tiles nowhere near their own deed? Not so much, they take too long to bash into unless someone's really dedicated.

I've seen several suggestions for the enclosures in the thread that would work (albeit drowned in other things by now) so there are definitely ways of ensuring that newbies won't be exposed to griefers that easily. At the moment I am more concerned about the highways, because I've seen the chats in-game where people bicker over roads. Many of the road arguments are only settled by the pure fact that "the road is not on your deed and legally counts as a highway", so I imagine that this might open up a few road turf arguments again. There are several suggestions regarding roads in the thread but so far I've seen none that would work in practice, granted I might've overlooked some of the suggestions thinking it was another post about perimeters. Personally I can't think of a working solution either to be honest, because it's a very delicate matter. We've had problems with roads ever since Independence opened and the highway rule has pretty much been what's kept the roads in place the last few years, despite its obvious downsides. It would be good to have some sort of security regarding roads leading up to deeds: Will it count as griefing if you remove someone's road without first deeding it or will it be free game even if it's obvious that it was done out of spite?

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Main issue is that most people don't want normal people deciding the highways system, but people want a highway system since a lot of animals can't swim and a lot of people live in shore and need roads to drop off goods.

 

Only two option is either GM's design the roads or a group of players sponsored by the community design them 

 

 

Well this is actually a really great idea. Have the community decide how the Major highway systems are laid out, get the approval from all the active deeds along the proposed path to agree to it, then have the GM's lock the tiles once the highway has been built. From here the players in a specific region can decide how they want the minor highways to connect to their deed and if some of them get griefed it's not going to disrupt the major roads used by the community at large.

 

I could see this working too - and along with it I would like a 'rule of thumb' (of course you can't always abide by it, for instance when mountains need to be traversed or where highways meet up and divide again - but just that, a rule of thumb to keep in mind) concerning a minimum distance between main (to be protected, untouchable once made) highways.

While I can see how many want to depend on wide and 'easy' roads to get places - it's just silly and irritating imo how unchangeable highways are now often being built not even twenty tiles apart from each other, cutting free land up into useless little plots everywhere. As far as I am concerned, servermaps with the size of cele, exo and deli should be divided by lines into 9 equal blocks - and on those division-lines  would be the routes (more or less of course) of main highways.  So two main highways north-south, roughly 1/3rd away from the left edge, 1/3rd from the right edge, and 1/3rd from each other; and two main highways west-east in same fashion. Translating that to larger servers in comparable way. Make a few-tiles-deep branch-off left and right every 300 tiles or so, and (only) those points can be used to hook up any other sub-highways and roads by anyone wanting to build their own roads and (not-protected) own sub-highways. Such a pattern of main, protected, 'untouchable' highways gives roadbuilders still ample chances to build (useful) roads inbetween the main-highways, while also giving chance to keep tracts of land unscarred (or reversible) and usable for other things (not-cut-into-pieces deeds, hunting-area's, forests, whatever).

 

I don't know if the main-highways should be laid out by a chosen player-committee. It's a possibility of course... but with the pre-guideline in place ('a highway needs to be built more or less along this or that map-dividing line') I think it would be nicer to then leave 'where and how exactly' to the locals living in an area (smaller committees using feedback of all within that area while planning and building). That would probably make the exact tract of such main-highways to be the most useful tract for said area.

 

I would also like to see a distinctive different-from-any-other-road material being used for these 'grand-highways' so that  everyone knows them when they see them. (Remember Amnesty Road on GV? If a new or not-so-new player lost their way and finaly found 'AR' they recognized it immediately, and could find their way home from there again. Especially when not being the common thing everywhere to be seen, such a road can be a real help to new disoriented people - without taking out the fun of being lost, still enough room inbetween for that too).

 

The system of heritage-sights should remain along with the above, for those 'special places' as it is now - so while sub-highways and normal roads would be changeable, certain very important spots in them would still be protected even if not part of a main-highway.

Edited by Kianga

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 We need a working solution for newbie shelters because once the legal enclosure protection goes away they are the first ones that are going to suffer the consequences.

We already have a solution against most "lone newbie is getting griefed" problems, it's called "join a village". It's just most newbies don't want to. 

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