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Thorakkanath

A matter of subjectivity

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There have been many threads, many posts and many polls so far. There is one problem though....the results are a mess for pretty much everyhing you might want to find out. Why? because of subjectivity. Naturally, we are subjective in nature but there are some things I invite you to think about:


 


  • On polls that hint to more work for the wurm staff, of course wurm staff will be against - who wants to do more work?

 


  • On threads/polls regarding changes on freedom, why do people that play PvP post/vote? I would like to see the people actually playing on freedom deciding for freedom

 


  • Why on all topics discussing the problems of the game (mechanics and so on) do the (not directly involved) CAs, GMs etc.and their friends need to defend the devs/game? Do they get kudos points for doing so?

 


  • On changes that would make the game better/more logical - people directly affected will ALWAYS (proven through scientific research) be more likely to post the fact that they resent the change than the ones not affected by the changes. Just a few examples:
    • woa/coc on water, people that have already high skills in blacksmithing will not want this so that there are fewer getting to their levels
    • the suggestion of being told EXACTLY what rares do, naturally the people making a living on these will be against revealing facts about them - so of course you will see more negative comments (or -1s) even on good suggestions, that is one of the major issues of any forum in general
    • almost all suggestions about changing something existing in the game will have such a bias, just look for them!

 


  • Lastly, the new committee, supposedly meant to provide an interface between the wurm staff and the players will consist of.....wurm staff and players selected by wurm staff. In science we call this a breach of validation. In real life (and Code Club AB is a real company mind you) consultants are ALWAYS external to the team/project/company to which they are providing their services to. Why? If you start with the fear that if you do not make suggestions that your boss wants to hear you might get kicked off the team, who will want to make good suggestions? They will always make 'safe' suggestions, basically not changing much of anything. So what would this team actually do?

 


I made this thread for a variety of reasons, but I will not bore you with them. Who has ears to hear will, who dosen't won't.


 


I will conclude this post with a request. I made this thread to get my message across and maybe give a few people something to think about and not to be told how wrong I am because I know I am not. It is my RL job to think critical and outside the box and to shed any and all prejudices when doing so.


 


So the request is this: anyone that will post in this thread, please be logical, don't flame and most importantly think that I posted in the best interest of making wurm a better place, because I am in no committe, I am no staff, I gain no finanical bonus or anything of the like from this.


 


Now I want to say thank you to the ones that took their time and read this post alltogether.


 


Peace,


Thor


 


PS. the questions above are rhetorical in nature, no one should feel compelled to reply to any of them


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  • On polls that hint to more work for the wurm staff, of course wurm staff will be against - who wants to do more work?

 

I had to single this out, specifically; the wurm staff, that is, the paid members of staff, like the development team, should not be, nor do I believe they are, against doing more work. All of making, and maintaining this game is 'work', it's simply a matter of prioritization, and allocation of resources. I trust they have the ability to balance their real lives, and their work. As such, any suggestion that would involve more work to implement, does not create more work for the staff, it simply seeks to re-allocate where they focus their efforts. 

So no, I don't believe the wurm staff will be against suggestions that involve 'more work'.

Otherwise, an interesting read =)

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Can we please stop the PvP vs. PvE ######? I'm really tired of people arguing in a game we collectively play. 


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I had to single this out, specifically; the wurm staff, that is, the paid members of staff, like the development team, should not be, nor do I believe they are, against doing more work. All of making, and maintaining this game is 'work', it's simply a matter of prioritization, and allocation of resources. I trust they have the ability to balance their real lives, and their work. As such, any suggestion that would involve more work to implement, does not create more work for the staff, it simply seeks to re-allocate where they focus their efforts. 

So no, I don't believe the wurm staff will be against suggestions that involve 'more work'.

Otherwise, an interesting read =)

 

You might be right :) But I have to little information to make that statement, that's why I made the general remark regarding 'wurm staff'

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I had to single this out, specifically; the wurm staff, that is, the paid members of staff, like the development team, should not be, nor do I believe they are, against doing more work. All of making, and maintaining this game is 'work', it's simply a matter of prioritization, and allocation of resources. I trust they have the ability to balance their real lives, and their work. As such, any suggestion that would involve more work to implement, does not create more work for the staff, it simply seeks to re-allocate where they focus their efforts. 

So no, I don't believe the wurm staff will be against suggestions that involve 'more work'.

Otherwise, an interesting read =)

 

This is a very good point, and one that has forced me to think deeper about what it means when people use the retort, "It would just waste the developer's time."

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  • On threads/polls regarding changes on freedom, why do people that play PvP post/vote? I would like to see the people actually playing on freedom deciding for freedom

 

 

So the request is this: anyone that will post in this thread, please be logical, don't flame and most importantly think that I posted in the best interest of making wurm a better place, because I am in no committe, I am no staff, I gain no finanical bonus or anything of the like from this.

 

 

This reminds me the argument about no legendary titles on Epic, and freedomers telling Epic players that they don't deserve the titles because they deserve it more.

That was my first real poop throwing argument that I have in this game by the way.

 

 

And after some more time playing the game, and reading the forums, I really don't understand this all PvP vs PvE, among the player base. As I have reached to the conclusion that the fault of this particular problem, is because devs just stand aside and let the poop throwing happen. If not help it.

 

But all that would deserve a wall of text, that I'm too lazy to explain, and that would provoke more poop fighting.

 

 

  • Lastly, the new committee, supposedly meant to provide an interface between the wurm staff and the players will consist of.....wurm staff and players selected by wurm staff. In science we call this a breach of validation. In real life (and Code Club AB is a real company mind you) consultants are ALWAYS external to the team/project/company to which they are providing their services to. Why? If you start with the fear that if you do not make suggestions that your boss wants to hear you might get kicked off the team, who will want to make good suggestions? They will always make 'safe' suggestions, basically not changing much of anything. So what would this team actually do?

 

*has yet another flashback*

 

 

 

"Hey, we are going to choose whoever we want, to represent your interests, and of course, you won't know who we chose"

 

Thats the part I'm not okay about this idea.

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This reminds me the argument about no legendary titles on Epic, and freedomers telling Epic players that they don't deserve the titles because they deserve it more.

 

The problem isn't PvP - but the perception that Freedom is neglected. This perception is reinforced by a lack of "special features" for PvE servers, where as it's perceived that PvP has received a large quantity of "Special features" that PvE doesn't get. It is true, it doesn't make sense for PvE to receive a special feature, merely based on the merit of having one.

 

However, recent suggestions have cropped up regarding code-segregation in other games (As well as Chaos and Epic) serving as a proof of concept that PvE could have "special features" with an actual purpose of existing beyond the mere merit of appeasing the spoiled self-entitlement crowd that used to make up the vocal majority of PvE posters. Ideas that would improve the gameplay of Freedom, that could only work on a Freedom server, because it's mere existence on the PvP servers could hamper or ruin the gameplay of PvP servers such as Chaos and Epic's.

 

These ideas are not limited to, but can include:

  • Improved Guards

Improved Templars

Improved pets intended for fighting other mobs

Increased numbers of pets

Dredging rock underwater

Raising rock from underwater using Concrete

Mine Doors on slopes higher than 90.

Mine Doors on Canals.

On Deed, water-border enclosures for the purpose of protecting private Canals

Arguments could be made very easily that these ideas are terrible based on the merit that they could hurt PvP. However, they would make great garnishes to Freedom's gameplay - and would completely destroy any perceptions of disparity between PvE and PvP if they were added to freedom alone.

 

You must also remember that the majority of the recent fixes intended predominantly for PvP, have hampered PvE gameplay - only further increasing the sense of jealousy and resentment among the PvE population. Most people from Freedom who are speaking out now are doing so with the hope that by speaking out, the Disintegrate fiasco that nearly came to Freedom would be the last.

 

And after some more time playing the game, and reading the forums, I really don't understand this all PvP vs PvE, among the player base. As I have reached to the conclusion that the fault of this particular problem, is because devs just stand aside and let the poop throwing happen. If not help it.

 

It's not much different than going on to any other web forum. With the exception of games where the codes are effectively segregated, (DAoC, WoW for example) - players will always feel resentment towards the other side because of perceptions regarding how their gameplay is effected by the mere existence of the opposite style of gameplay.

 

If you want to play a fun little game, go onto the LiF forums and count how many times the word "carebear" is used as an insult.

 

You'll probably get bored after you hit 5 digits.

Edited by Dairuka
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The problem isn't PvP - but the perception that Freedom is neglected. This perception is reinforced by a lack of "special features" for PvE servers, where as it's perceived that PvP has received a large quantity of "Special features" that PvE doesn't get. It is true, it doesn't make sense for PvE to receive a special feature, merely based on the merit of having one.

 

However, recent suggestions have cropped up regarding code-segregation serving as a proof of concept that PvE could have "special features" with an actual purpose of existing beyond the mere merit of appeasing the spoiled self-entitlement crowd. Ideas that would improve the gameplay of Freedom, that could only work on a Freedom server, because it's mere existence on the PvP servers could hamper or ruin the gameplay of PvP servers such as Chaos and Epic's.

 

These ideas are not limited to, but can include:

  • Improved Guard Towers
  • Improved Templars
  • Improved Pets intended for fighting other Mobs
  • Increased numbers of Pets
  • Dredging Rock Underwater
  • Raising Rock from Underwater using Concrete
  • Mine Doors on slopes higher than 90.
  • Mine Doors on Canals.
  • On Deed, Water-border enclosures for the purpose of protecting private Canals

Arguments could be made very easily that these ideas are terrible based on the merit that they could hurt PvP. However, they would make great garnishes to Freedom's gameplay - and would completely destroy any perceptions of disparity between PvE and PvP if they were added to freedom alone.

 

 

One of the many things that I don't fully understand, is the need of having one PvP client, and another PvE client. I stated before(and a lot more people too) that Code Club can't keep up with too groups of code, that are basically the same.

But I can't understand too, that the same way there are no sorceress in Freedom, why couldn't be other PvE only features, all in the same code, and working by just server configuration.

Seriously, I don't see a needed to have two different clients, if just with a "0" or "1" you can save up all the work that it implies.

 

 

 

 

It's not much different than going on to any other web-forum. With the exception of games where the codes are effectively segregated, (DAoC, WoW for example) - players will always feel resentment towards the other side because of perceptions regarding how their gameplay is effected by the mere existence of the opposite style of gameplay.

 

If you want to play a fun little game, go onto the LiF forums and count how many times the word "carebear" is used as an insult.

 

You'll probably get bored after you hit 5 digits.

 

In other games the developers seems to be aware of the segregations that they made, and the conflicts and problems that their decisions cause.

 

And they talk openly about it, and more or less try to make happy all the parts.

 

Here I don't really know if they are aware of it, or if they are but they just don't share it with us.

 

An action as easily as that would make me a bit more happier about Wurm, and about where Wurm goes. You know, give more feeling that there is someone that knows what he is doing.

Edited by Alec

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Just a few examples:

  • [*]woa/coc on water, people that have already high skills in blacksmithing will not want this so that there are fewer getting to their levels

Most people that argue that side of things have given up long ago, though. This game has been "dumbed" down over the years, and skillgain in anything these days is far quicker and easier than it was 4+ years ago.

You can't really complain about skillgain from CoC water, when the legitimacy of your entire skill is wiped away because everyone and their brother can easily gain in said skill. Take leather working as example... there used to be some merit behind having that skill, especially in the 90s. Now, everyone has 90+... and if they don't, no worries... easily acquirable.

All that being said, I don't know one high skilled smith that does not want CoC to work on water. I, personally, have 99.3 blacksmithing and roughly 85 parent smithing and have been asking for it to work for years.

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Can we please stop the PvP vs. PvE ######? I'm really tired of people arguing in a game we collectively play. 

 

This, from both PVE and PVP players.

 

PVP people play on freedom, Freedom players play on PvP.  Maybe not as much, but don't assume they don't ONLY play 1 server. (or they they never plan to)

 

 

I wont even comment on the rest of it, because guesswork gets nobody anywhere.

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One of the many things that I don't fully understand, is the need of having one PvP client, and another PvE client. I stated before(and a lot more people too) that Code Club can't keep up with too groups of code, that are basically the same.

But I can't understand too, that the same way there are no sorceress in Freedom, why couldn't be other PvE only features, all in the same code, and working by just server configuration.

Seriously, I don't see a needed to have two different clients, if just with a "0" or "1" you can save up all the work that it implies.

 

Proper use of this system would be a decent compromise, and always remains an option on the table that could appease many people in one swoop. Especially since it's already being used on a small scale. (See Disintegrate and Sorcery)

 

Your compromise wouldn't be much different than what Freedom's forum dwellers are asking for, except it's less extreme. In the end the use of such a system as you suggest would still require someone to ask the following: "Would a change to Chaos' gameplay negatively effect Epic and Freedom's gameplay?" to be answered and corrected with the right 1's and 0's before the changes are implemented. Not after a public forum outcry.

 

I think this is what most Freedomers, including the vocal minority on the forums would want: To be recognized at the negotiating table, and to have the retconned 'bug fixes' that hamper our gameplay stop.

 

Right now, with the status quo, Freedom is not at the negotiating table and we are told flat out to simply accept the retconned 'bug fixes' that hamper our gameplay and be thankful for them, because speaking out about them is just the same "tired old argument of PvP vs PvE" - The status quo needs to change.

Edited by Dairuka
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I've played on freedom chaos and epic - and still visit friends on freedom time to time - of course if there is 2 clients I'd have to log out to visit them then log in a second client - update them separately and we would need 2 forum areas for updates - 2 update servers - 2 game servers - and new forums for both - as well as chars would then have to chose to be epic or freedom since you wouldn't be able to move around - and all people with towns on both sides would be basically screwed - but sure if you don't consider all that and the monster amounts of programming and cash it would take its not a bad plan, of course we could just slap a name under it and brand it a sequal by the end of it.


 


also only 5-10% if that (really its closer to maybe 1-2%) of time on pvp servers is actually pvp - not sure why everyone thinks every player is gonna shank you or something (and to be honest before I joined chaos and epic I thought it was a free for all as well) but it primarily is based off of realm versus realm combat not town versus town - on a average day we basically play the game the same way - we just build thicker walls and more weapons - but we farm with the same tools cut wood and mine stone just like everyone else


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A good post with some points to consider Thorakkanath. One that stood out to me was :


"Lastly, the new committee, supposedly meant to provide an interface between the wurm staff and the players will consist of.....wurm staff and players selected by wurm staff. In science we call this a breach of validation. In real life (and Code Club AB is a real company mind you) consultants are ALWAYS external to the team/project/company to which they are providing their services to. Why? If you start with the fear that if you do not make suggestions that your boss wants to hear you might get kicked off the team, who will want to make good suggestions? They will always make 'safe' suggestions, basically not changing much of anything. So what would this team actually do?"


 


At present this doesn't concern me much, the same as most concerns brought up in relation to this committee that will sift through the S&I forum section for ideas to present to the Dev's to consider. There are many problems that might or might not arise and until this system is put into operation for a short period of time I see all these conjectures as mere speculation, many of them overblown out of proportion by those prone to do so. I would say it would be best to watch how this system functions for a bit and then comment on problems that have been shown to actually exist within it.


 


As for the somewhat off topic comment of Dairuka's:


"However, recent suggestions have cropped up regarding code-segregation in other games (As well as Chaos and Epic) serving as a proof of concept that PvE could have "special features" with an actual purpose of existing beyond the mere merit of appeasing the spoiled self-entitlement crowd that used to make up the vocal majority of PvE posters. Ideas that would improve the gameplay of Freedom, that could only work on a Freedom server, because it's mere existence on the PvP servers could hamper or ruin the gameplay of PvP servers such as Chaos and Epic's."


 


This was more along the lines I was thinking when I made a post concerning the separation of coding between the PvE and pvp servers. No way would this be on separate clients but merely some sort of exclusionary coding system where what would apply to PvE servers could be excluded from pvp servers and vice versa; whereas, now too much similar coding is applied to these two distinct play styles. Take for example repairing fencing that takes 30 seconds may be desirable for pvp servers but on PvE servers it should really be cut into half that time. Dairuka listed more of the same examples but this is all really not concerning this topic, just a sidetrack.


 


As far as subjectivity goes I am wondering if this is really possible if a person has any interest in the issue that is being dealt with. If it concerns an aspect of game play that I have no interest in such as pvp, then I am not really objective but rather have little concern one way or the other. If it concerns an aspect of the game play that I enjoy I hardly think I can be objective, impartial and unemotionally attached to the issue. Such is what they call human nature I believe but what I can control is overreacting emotionally in response.


 


=Ayes=


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also only 5-10% if that (really its closer to maybe 1-2%) of time on pvp servers is actually pvp - not sure why everyone thinks every player is gonna shank you or something (and to be honest before I joined chaos and epic I thought it was a free for all as well) but it primarily is based off of realm versus realm combat not town versus town - on a average day we basically play the game the same way - we just build thicker walls and more weapons - but we farm with the same tools cut wood and mine stone just like everyone else

 

You're right, PVP isn't constant.... but the only people that believe in the gankfest notion anyway are the greenhorns.

A more fair assumption as to why the PVE player base isn't interested would be because: 

* Wurm is a grindfest. You either put massive time into obtaining nice things, or you buy them with coin.

* Coin is tied to real currency.

* Deeds are paid for with coin.

These people aren't interested in anyone else draining the coin out of the upkeep they've been filling. They're not interested in the possibility of losing items they had paid coin or worked hard and long to create. They value their pixels (that are tied to RL cash) too much to allow someone else the ability to take/steal it from them. As infrequent as that may happen, or however low a possibility of it happening is, makes no difference. The fact that it can happen is the complete turn off. 

 

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Can we please stop the PvP vs. PvE ######? I'm really tired of people arguing in a game we collectively play. 

-1

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 not sure why everyone thinks every player is gonna gank you... 


 


Its not that PVErs think everyone is a ganker..  but that PVErs say "Gank, not even once."


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However, recent suggestions have cropped up regarding code-segregation in other games (As well as Chaos and Epic) serving as a proof of concept that PvE could have "special features" with an actual purpose of existing beyond the mere merit of appeasing the spoiled self-entitlement crowd that used to make up the vocal majority of PvE posters. Ideas that would improve the gameplay of Freedom, that could only work on a Freedom server, because it's mere existence on the PvP servers could hamper or ruin the gameplay of PvP servers such as Chaos and Epic's.

 

These ideas are not limited to, but can include:

  • Improved Guards

Improved Templars

Improved pets intended for fighting other mobs

Increased numbers of pets

Dredging rock underwater

Raising rock from underwater using Concrete

Mine Doors on slopes higher than 90.

Mine Doors on Canals.

On Deed, water-border enclosures for the purpose of protecting private Canals

I would think stuff like not being able to dredge underwater/raise rock underwater is more about the devs not wanting it than pvp/pve concerns.  (And freedom can already do this with rods, right?)

 

Mine doors on canals is already possible? And I doubt pvp would be preventing it?

And water border enclosures doesn't seem like a pve vs pvp feature as much as a suggestion that has issues with it on both sides.

 

Buffed guards/templars/pets/more pets seems like both a pvp and pve concern, PvE is player vs environment, I don't get why some people think freedom is/should be PvNothing

 

Really, the whole PvP vs PvE is silly, PvE features effect PvP servers, and some PvP features effect PvE servers. That is just the way the game is, and I doubt it will change.

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You're right, PVP isn't constant.... but the only people that believe in the gankfest notion anyway are the greenhorns.

A more fair assumption as to why the PVE player base isn't interested would be because: 

* Wurm is a grindfest. You either put massive time into obtaining nice things, or you buy them with coin.

* Coin is tied to real currency.

* Deeds are paid for with coin.

These people aren't interested in anyone else draining the coin out of the upkeep they've been filling. They're not interested in the possibility of losing items they had paid coin or worked hard and long to create. They value their pixels (that are tied to RL cash) too much to allow someone else the ability to take/steal it from them. As infrequent as that may happen, or however low a possibility of it happening is, makes no difference. The fact that it can happen is the complete turn off.

 

This, but you're forgetting the number one reason a lot of people don't PVP: They don't like the idea of killing other players or taking/destroying their stuff. I'm in that boat - I just wouldn't enjoy it.

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