Update on the Reinforcements situation, spells and favour.

[Lau 302]

Here is something you all seem to be forgetting. Although I do not agree with how Rolf went about this situation, the outcome would have still ended up the exact same way, and here is why.

 

You don't seem to realise that had the change been announced beforehand. The loot would not have been there for you to take.

[Lau 302]

Committee(10 people) -> dev

 

Playerbase -> forum -> dev

 

 

= Dont kill the playerbase! Many players pay for the game and also want that you take their problems seriously. Please!

 

Devs will take you more seriously when your ideas go through a representative so they don't have to wade through page after page of forum trolling to get good discussion.

[Alec 728]

Committee(10 people) -> dev

 

Playerbase -> forum -> dev

 

 

= Dont kill the playerbase! Many players pay for the game and also want that you take their problems seriously. Please!

 

 

 

Forum discussion is the way to go, unfiltered raw unadulterated input from every player, any other way is just wrong.

[khatanka 317]

Devs will take you more seriously when your ideas go through a representative so they don't have to wade through page after page of forum trolling to get good discussion.

Exactly this comment indicates that it may not work.

 

playerbase (talk A) -> committee (talk Z) -> devs (???)

[Lau 302]

Obviously you have to trust that your rep has your interests in mind.

[Forgedrake 130]

I would suggest to increase favor cost for disintegrate spell to like 200 or so.

 

or 2 spells - disentegrate (standard pre update version) and a ritual version needing 200 favor with same success rate to smash tiles makeing it far more difficult

[Gregory 573]

Wurm Jury Duty

12 active randomly selected players are chosen to provide feed back on a specific impending change.

Apon logging in they are presented with a popup window providing background information about the change and a list of solutions and opportunity for comments.

[Stonesolid 159]

gg rolf, gg.

[Redd 4,281]

I*m sorry, what exactly is the point in a council? Why should 10 people decide the deveolpment direction of wurm. What the hell happened to the ingame voting idea?

[Lau 302]

I*m sorry, what exactly is the point in a council? Why should 10 people decide the deveolpment direction of wurm. What the hell happened to the ingame voting idea?

 

Why are you saying 10 people will decide the development direction? Where does the number 10 come from. Why do you think a council would have deciding powers?

 

I don't think the team would ever make a council which serves that function. I think the dev team wants a council that can inform them on what effects changes could have such that the dev team could make more informed decisions. The council would probably never make any decision for the dev team.

 

I can't say for sure, but I don't think that is what the team is thinking about when they mention a council.

 

Again it is the issue of majority rule. Features should not be decided by simple voting. Features should be decided by what the team wants to do with the game.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Lau

[Alec 728]

Why are you saying 10 people will decide the development direction? Where does the number 10 come from. Why do you think a council would have deciding powers?

 

I don't think the team would ever make a council which serves that function. I think the dev team wants a council that can inform them on what effects changes could have such that the dev team could make more informed decisions. The council would probably never make any decision for the dev team.

 

I can't say for sure, but I don't think that is what the team is thinking about when they mention a council.

 

Again it is the issue of majority rule. Features should not be decided by simple voting. Features should be decided by what the team wants to do with the game.

 

 

 

http://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?5225-Land-Protection-Proposal

 

 

I think some other devs actually read the forums.

[Lau 302]

That has been done several times in wurm as well. It is just not viable for anything but the most sensitive issues.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Lau

[Alec 728]

That has been done several times in wurm as well. It is just not viable for everything, but the most sensitive issues.

 

 

Like making that every deed that has a mine as entrance a serious security risk?

 

 

People spent a lot of time building dirt walls of over 400 slopes, several tiles wide, building on top of them walls/long houses, and then a couple of extra walls inside and out of the wall.

Thinking that for years, it has been the only most easy way to get into a deed.

[Lau 302]

What are we talking about now? Getting into a deed through a mine entrance is still impossible as far as I am aware.

 

Also it illustrates my point beautifully. Had a council been consulted about such a "minor" change that the devs did not expect having such grave repurcussions. I am sure it would have gone differently.

[Alec 728]

What are we talking about now? Getting into a deed through a mine entrance is still impossible as far as I am aware.

 

Also it illustrates my point beautifully. Had a council been consulted about such a "minor" change that the devs did not expect having such grave repurcussions. I am sure it would have gone differently.

 

They could just do something as simple as a thread, and they would get the same result as a council, but with the possibility of every player having a chance to speak.

 

Which I think would be the only right thing to do.

[Pashka 707]

What are we talking about now? Getting into a deed through a mine entrance is still impossible as far as I am aware.

 

Also it illustrates my point beautifully. Had a council been consulted about such a "minor" change that the devs did not expect having such grave repurcussions. I am sure it would have gone differently.

 

This shows what not thinking about everything causes.  Just for an example.  I build a deed and completely enclose it with dirt walls and tall stone walls but I have a mine on deed.  I have mined out to the edge of my deed possibly into a perimeter tile.  Someone else happens upon that perimeter tile and mines into the tunnel.  They can then just walk right into my deed as a mine door only blocks people from coming in not leaving.  Might take a little luck but they are into the deed.

[Lau 302]

They could just do something as simple as a thread, and they would get the same result as a council, but with the possibility of every player having a chance to speak.

 

Which I think would be the only right thing to do.

 

Except those threads are filled with hyperbole and people throwing personal insults at each other.

[Alec 728]

Except those threads are filled with hyperbole and people throwing personal insults at each other.

 

That doesn't happen as much as to justify a need of a council of elite players to "filter" or "gather" feedback from the forum for the devs.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Alec

[Lau 302]

This shows what not thinking about everything causes.  Just for an example.  I build a deed and completely enclose it with dirt walls and tall stone walls but I have a mine on deed.  I have mined out to the edge of my deed possibly into a perimeter tile.  Someone else happens upon that perimeter tile and mines into the tunnel.  They can then just walk right into my deed as a mine door only blocks people from coming in not leaving.  Might take a little luck but they are into the deed.

 

That is true, but once you go through the door you're trapped.

[Lau 302]

That doesn't happen as much as to justify a need of a council of elite players to "filter" or "gather" feedback from the forum for the devs.

 

Council would also remove the problem of valid requests/problems being drowned out by ###### on the forums.

[ScarfaceRo 79]

Listening to every person is indeed the best solution, but is far from being optimal.

 

If you have 100 people wanting to share their opinion, then comment on the other people's opinion and so on, things can go easily out of hand and eat up a lot of time to read and analyze, time that our small team of devs could better spend coding.

 

The same issue is in real life; having everyone the right to state his mind and vote for any issue would be the ideally solution, but it is not practical at all. Imagine a law debate where you would have to listen to millions of people points of view. That's why "representative democracy" was born. You elect your representative (based on whom you think will better represent you), then those representative get together and decide by vote for all raised problems. Your representative may not represent your personal interest, but will represent the interest of the majority of his voters; if not, he could be revoked by the majority of those that voted him in the first place.

 

Stop trying to find the perfect solution. That's an utopia. Just be happy with the optimal solution. And the optimal solution is to have a number of people elected from each server, which those people think would better represent their interest. Then have those people consult with the devs and have a say (not decision) regarding the new features / changes. This would limit the time the devs have to spend reading pages and pages of suggestions and comments and have more time for actually working on those changes. And if you want to say something and have your voice heard, just petition your representative and he will pass the best ideas further.

 

I know we all consider ourselves to be the center of the universe, consider that we have the best ideas and that we must be listened. But truth is, in most cases, we should just learn to go over ourselves.

[rixk 830]

They could just do something as simple as a thread, and they would get the same result as a council, but with the possibility of every player having a chance to speak.

 

Which I think would be the only right thing to do.

Agreed with that.. Forum is voice of everyone, don't need to narrow that voice down to only 10 (or whatever number the council will be) people.

[MaurizioAM 919]

You don't seem to realise that had the change been announced beforehand. The loot would not have been there for you to take.

Yes i agree with this as well, and i myself have told ROLF that if he makes any type of change what so ever on chaos it needs to be made a big deal of. People not knowing Disintegrate was changed a while back is the start of this issue. But again that is not the full issue, as we have all been playing this game for 7+ years now, well not all but many of us, and we all know that ROLF has always done changes and never says anything and its up to US the playerbase to find out for ourselves. WE have complained a lot about that type of find out for yourself way about wurm many times in the past and never has anything changed. 

 

The issues really at hand are not the loss of items anymore, its the simple fact that we should all jump down ROLFs throat about fixes, balance and most importantly informing of such changes how things work what they do.

[Bullbrand 63]

The council being spoken about is coming from the current staff - CAs, CMs and GMs - not from randomly picked or chosen players.

[Zakerak 442]

One can already deed over your expanded mine outside your deed and remove the reinforcements. Your off-deed mines were never safe to begin with prividing he could find a way in.

My off deep parts of mine are under my perimeter and it is ... no, it was ... protected by reinforced walls.

Go there and try to deed it over and mine it out, smart aleck.

Until now it was safe, but now it is compromised.

 

Once in past I wanted to remove single one reinforced wall (in way of tunnel) just outside my perimeter. I had to resize down my deed, prem one alt, place deed there, mine it out, disband and resize my deed back to original size. It was expensive, too expensive to be usefull as griefing tool.

Now it is cheap and legal griefing tool. It costs only some patience of any better Magranon priest. Grats.

 

Well I will live with that. But IF someone will use it to grief my mine, I will go berserk, revive my 100 faith, 80 chann Mag to spread terror around with the same, now legal, griefing tool.