Update on the Reinforcements situation, spells and favour.

[rixk 830]

@Hussars

When we raided and destroyed Sparta on the 23rd of March. None of us knew that disintegrate could destroy reinforced walls. Had we known at that time, we would've focused our efforts on breaking into their safe vault first rather than catapulting every building and digging down their walls.

On the 24th of March, we learned that disintegrate was meant to be able to destroy reinforced walls and so we returned to Sparta to get into their safe vault. We were even talking about asking Rolf to spectate us to ensure it was working as intended.

And that is where it went off the track... You got some inside information from highest level of management, which you used for your personal gain. The other party didn't have that information, they acted according to the old "rules".

Edited March 26, 2014 by rixk

[Hussars 511]

@Hussars

When we raided and destroyed Sparta on the 23rd of March. None of us knew that disintegrate could destroy reinforced walls. Had we known at that time, we would've focused our efforts on breaking into their safe vault first rather than catapulting every building and digging down their walls.

On the 24th of March, we learned that disintegrate was meant to be able to destroy reinforced walls and so we returned to Sparta to get into their safe vault. We were even talking about asking Rolf to spectate us to ensure it was working as intended.

Thanks for the reply, I was honestly confused on the presentation and since I know everyone is on high-alert currently, didn't want to make any assumptions on it.

 

 

[...]

 

@Hussars, its not possible to fail Strongwall, iirc.. someone who actually plays on their Mag Priest could probably tell you more though.

I have a mag priest I'm working on (slowly) towards the 70 faith, so wasn't sure if this was one of the "no-fail" spells.. still think it's kind of silly have a visible difficulty target value if it's not actually used.

 

Thanks again all!

 

::edit insert::

 

And that is where it went off the track... You got some inside information, which you used for your personal gain. The other party didn't have that information, they acted according to the old "rules".

To be fair, in PVP most people will use any advantage they can, the real problem (again in my opinion) is that when the bug was finally realized, the dev team should have frozen the PVP status/encounter and announced impending changes.

 

Is that fair to the raiders?  No, but there could have been a server roll-back and/or other comp'ing for their effort and helping to find what turned out to be a "game breaking" bug.

 

The only thing they were out was time,  for all they knew until they got into the loot, it could have been empty, so they might have wasted that time anyway.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Hussars

[RomaN 890]

And that is where it went off the track... You got some inside information from highest level of management, which you used for your personal gain. The other party didn't have that information, they acted according to the old "rules".

Personally, I don't think even Rolf knew that nobody knew disintegrate could destroy walls until someone lodged that /support call.

It was the same thing when Poison was introduced to the game. Nobody knew how to cure it until someone discovered Farmer's Salve.

[Lancelot 765]

To be honest this whole episode has been a PR headache and really should not have been allowed to occur.

[riceri 66]

Personally, I don't think even Rolf knew that nobody knew disintegrate could destroy walls until someone lodged that /support call.

It was the same thing when Poison was introduced to the game. Nobody knew how to cure it until someone discovered Farmer's Salve.

Intressting, other posts and people on IRC have said this was something everyone know that the spell should work like that.

[rixk 830]

Personally, I don't think even Rolf knew that nobody knew disintegrate could destroy walls until someone lodged that /support call.

It was the same thing when Poison was introduced to the game. Nobody knew how to cure it until someone discovered Farmer's Salve.

Old wiki entry, before this drama: http://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php?title=Disintegrate&oldid=82687

"Is used underground to destroy rock tiles. Doesn't work on reinforced tiles or veins."

 

There is no reason to assume, that people knew about its "intended" effect.

[Oreo 5,793]

Where's Cornchips with his 'facts' gif when you need it..?

[Mojo 2,095]

if Rolf played his own game he'd realize what was going on

 

but he doesn't, and relies on what people tell him

 

which is obviously a huge issue

[rosedragon 2,282]

Suggestion of making changes based on popularity also won't work much. Case in chaos is MR more popular than any other kingdoms there, LOL...

 

I have another assumption. This whole thing happen because players and staffs (or even devs) are not neutral and supposedly not be treated as neutral. Theirs intention is not always for good of the game but for good of the group theirs care for, whichever it is group of average joe, merchants, newbies, veterans, a kingdom, an alliance, and so on. 

 

For that assumption I have suggestion of that when a game changing decision have to be made, let all groups that affected to represent theirs arguments and let dev team be the judges. Slow response, but unless game is hacked or everyone start losing silvers from theirs bank, there is NEVER EVER need to quick fix.

 

Both in wiki and game description, there is no pointer or clue that disintegrate can destroy reinforced wall. There is no bug fix, there only game changes here because all parties actually know this. Until someone on staff position felt it is time to not hide the fact he/she knows it is not intended.

 

As for sparta? How about make duplicate of their items and give them those. 

Edited March 26, 2014 by rosedragon

[Alec 729]

 

 

I have another assumption. This whole thing happen because players and staffs (or even devs) are not neutral and supposedly not be treated as neutral. Theirs intention is not always for good of the game but for good of the group theirs care for, whichever it is group of average joe, merchants, newbies, veterans, a kingdom, an alliance, and so on. 

 

 

Almost everyone I talked about this, thinks more or less the same.

 

 

And I really doubt that we will get an answer capable of justify what Rolf did, other than a "cuz I want, is my vision, my dream, and cuz ideally the game is supposed to work like XYZ, GG".

[Audrel 2,223]

Both in wiki and game description, there is no pointer or clue that disintegrate can destroy reinforced wall. There is no bug fix, there only game changes here because all parties actually know this. Until someone on staff position felt it is time to not hide the fact he/she knows it is not intended.

 

The wiki is best guesses by players on how something works. Documentation? I rest my case there.Figuring out how things work in the real world is fine and dandy but this is not the real world. Out here, God is not going to drop down from Heaven and change physics... you know, the coding for the real world. In Wurm, a little bit of documentation on how it's SUPPOSED to work would be nice. I'm not saying to list all your behind the scenes formulas and trade secrets. I'm saying write some documentation and some rules, not codes of conduct, that are black and white. The grey area excuse just does not float with me. It's allowed or it's not. There is nothing grey about it. Grey area leads to things like this where one person sees grey and many other people see glaring bright as the sun white screaming THIS WAS NOT RIGHT! Finally, patch notes. Document them.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Audrel

[rosedragon 2,282]

Nope, there won't be a satisfying answers. The whole thing have happened, caused frustration and distaste and printed bold in players brain. The part of attempt on making a suggestion council is a move to try to improve communication but without details, no one would able to analyze if it would work or not. What devs can do is show more good gestures of fixing this instead making more screwups with those irc conversations.

[rixk 830]

The wiki is best guesses by players on how something works. Documentation? I rest my case there.Figuring out how things work in the real world is fine and dandy but this is not the real world. Out here, God is not going to drop down from Heaven and change physics... you know, the coding for the real world. In Wurm, a little bit of documentation on how it's SUPPOSED to work would be nice. I'm not saying to list all your behind the scenes formulas and trade secrets. I'm saying write some documentation and some rules, not codes of conduct, that are black and white. The grey area excuse just does not float with me. It's allowed or it's not. There is nothing grey about it. Grey area leads to things like this where one person sees grey and many other people see glaring bright as the sun white screaming THIS WAS NOT RIGHT! Finally, patch notes. Document them.

I think the current approach is good, letting people to discover stuff is great idea. It adds a layer of mystery as even in such a mature game as wurm is, there is still something to discover and test how things work.

[Bullbrand 63]

Short version of what happened:

 

Your house was being broken into but the thieves couldn't get through your windows. They phoned the local police to report the fact that the windows were not opening and said they weren't 'working as intended' - so the police show up, after trying themselves they decide that the windows are illegal and they brought their own tools to bear to break into the house. The burglars got away with fat loot and the police response was 'we decided that the windows were illegally installed' so we 'had to take action'

 

The thieves got away with 5 million euros in rare paintings.

 

 

Now STFU and stop wasting POLICE time. They have more important things to do besides listening to upset whining kids who lost lots of RL money.

 

Edited version

[Toplel 71]

I think the current approach is good, letting people to discover stuff is great idea. It adds a layer of mystery as even in such a mature game as wurm is, there is still something to discover and test how things work.

Wonderful. I love unanticipated changes that completely change aspects of the game that thitherfore I had taken for granted. Maybe the spell genesis is actually meant to spawn a new server, not remove bad traits and kill zombies.

[Alec 729]

Open question to everyone: Do you really think that this will be the end of IRC convos that decides the direction of Wurm?

 

 

 

I think the current approach is good, letting people to discover stuff is great idea. It adds a layer of mystery as even in such a mature game as wurm is, there is still something to discover and test how things work.

 

I think you are using sarcasm.

[rixk 830]

I think you are using sarcasm.

No, I was serious.

 

EDIT: Although currently in Wurm there is some sort of half-a**ed version of this player driven discovery. As those, who are in IRC, have direct access to the information about features etc (which is what caused recent issue).

Edited March 26, 2014 by rixk

[Kyrmius 193]

There will be a separate post later handling more about the enclosures. We are still working on the details.

But there is more to it then the flying and has been a problem for longer then that specific topic.

It is the matter of big areas of non deeded land being claimed with just enclosures.

And yes you will be given ample time after this is announced in further detail I promise.

 

The suggestions committee will be a group of experienced players who are representing all different servers and faiths.

 

We are addressing the so called "Ninja Nerfs" and this will be one step in the process of getting feedback going faster between us devs and the players.

 

BL might very well be subject to more balancing.

 

Committees in dictatorships do not server the masses, they serve the dictator.

 

A committee of Players on a Village deed that is a dictatorship is pointless since the Mayor (dictator) can do as they please. Same in this case. Telling me a committee will be formed to me is not good news at all, it communicates to me that CodeClubAB wants to distance itself from the Players, shield themselves from Players. When the Lead Dev of an Indy MMO wants to shield themselves from the Players of their MMO it is not a good sign for the future of that MMO.

 

And even if this "group of experienced Players" does end up to be a legitimate organization, a slim chance I might add if you look at the history of human government and such, it definitely won't present Players like myself who are many times at odds with the "experienced Players". It will represent the Elite of the Players, that is all.

 

But what this will do to me is irrelevant. It is what this will do to the Playerbase as a whole that has me concerned. The sky isn't falling but the sun isn't shining as brightly as it was before either.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Kyrmius

[Grinder 0]

Anyone who has played this game long enough knows of the bias for certain groups by members of staff.

Its happened time and again.

 

Once upon a time archery was discovered to be a viable primary combat skill by one particular group of players, not just a support skill.

certain other people complained and it got nerfed.

[Lau 302]

Committees in dictatorships do not server the masses, they serve the dictator.

 

A committee of Players on a Village deed that is a dictatorship is pointless since the Mayor (dictator) can do as they please. Same in this case. Telling me a committee will be formed to me is not good news at all, it communicates to me that CodeClubAB wants to distance itself from the Players, shield themselves from Players. When the Lead Dev of an Indy MMO wants to shield themselves from the Players of their MMO it is not a good sign for the future of that MMO.

 

And even if this "group of experienced Players" does end up to be a legitimate organization, a slim chance I might add if you look at the history of human government and such, it definitely won't present Players like myself who are many times at odds with the "experienced Players". It will represent the Elite of the Players, that is all.

 

But what this will do to me is irrelevant. It is what this will do to the Playerbase as a whole that has me concerned. The sky isn't falling but the sun isn't shining as brightly as it was before either.

 

For this to be valid you have to assume that game decisions can be made in a democratic manner. This is not how it works since the dev team does not have to listen to its playerbase. Furthermore, having the masses decide game features is a surefire way to make the game bad. You also assume that Rolf will just do whatever the hell he wants anyway, and you're right, the council should not be able to veto Rolf. However I believe Rolf wants the best for the game and having a council will increase the chance of changes having the intended effect on gameplay because the council understands how the game is played, not just how it works.

 

A council would not distance the dev team from the playerbase, in fact it would make communication much easier, and better.

 

The role of a council is not to decide what features the playerbase wants or do not want. That is up to the development team. The role of the council is to inform the dev team of what effects a change will have, such that the dev team can make informed decisions that will take the game in the direction they want.

 

The development of Wurm is not a democracy and it should'nt be.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Lau

[Forgedrake 130]

from everything I read it seems like this is the easy fix not the right fix - do I believe vaults should be stopped - yes of course they should - no area should be 100% safe from attack at the same time I don't feel as this stops vaults just the makeing of larger more elaborate versions - we need a mechanic ADDED to stop vaults not a defense removed - yes I know the spell is supposed to be hard to cast but most pvp priest can cast this and with a few filled gems it seems like chain casting this would not be difficult for the average player on chaos or epic

 

I think rather then figure how the disentegrate spell is flawed and needs fixing we need to figure how to fix the vault issue that created all of this - I mean so far most people seem in favor of a no vaults idea but against disentegrate destroying reinforced walls - we need to revery the spell and build in a mechanic to fix vaults instead as so many people rely on reinforced walls for safety

 

to be brutaly honest this entire thing seems like its the easy fix rather then a good fix and has now broken months worth of work by players and caused more problems then it fixed - sure vaults are annoying but the ability to randomly smash on deed walls that the entire point most reinforced was to stop players makes allot of deeds totally pointless now

 

Edit - not to mention with people just building multiple layers of reinforced walls now 5-6 deep around a town its just made super vaults that take hours to diesntegrate into and makeing the pvp mechanic more tedius then fun

Edited March 26, 2014 by Forgedrake

[Mantas 87]

I would suggest to increase favor cost for disintegrate spell to like 200 or so.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Mantas

[MaurizioAM 919]

Here is something you all seem to be forgetting. Although I do not agree with how Rolf went about this situation, the outcome would have still ended up the exact same way, and here is why.

 

It would be unfair in some eyes any which way you look at this situation. The outcome at hand is that Rolf instead of taking down the server doing the update posting about it and starting the server back up, he just took down the wall that was clearly a bugged mechanic, it was not favoritism it was just a decision that Rolf made to fix the bug right there and then. Even if Rolf would have taken down the server to fix the bug and post about it, SPARTA WAS NOT DEFENDED ANYWAY! So what would the outcome have become anyway? It would have resulted in the exact same loss of loot with NO COMPENSATION.

 

Now some of you feel that there should have been a no combat no loot zone for 24 hours, but that would be even more unfair then taking down a bugged wall. This is PVP nothing you have is safe and should not be safe i fully agree with that. But on the other hand although a tiny bit off topic but I do not agree that both JK and MR own 90% of the map together, that in my eyes is just ###### to be allowed and piss poor game mechanics.

 

So, i just wanted to make you all aware that no matter how you look at this situation Sparta has fallen due to the lack of defense, you guys had 10 players geared up in scale and drake and some plate, stop being pussies and dive in and fight off your opponents, YES you will die, but at least you could have had a chance. If you didnt want to lose your drake then take it off and fight naked. The fact is, there was a lack of defense due to the fear of losing skills and gear that you decided a broken game mechanic which created this safe mine would be the best case scenario. For one i am kinda glad in a way that finally after 7 years a city was able to be fully 100% looted, because now this sparks up balancing changes this game has always needed. 

[Becket 843]

Damn I had to work double shifts come back to find all hell has broken loose, is it to late for popcorn?

[khatanka 317]

Committee(10 people) -> dev

 

Playerbase -> forum -> dev

 

 

= Dont kill the playerbase! Many players pay for the game and also want that you take their problems seriously. Please!