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Rolf

A comment on the reinforcements situation

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Alaskan, the Spartans were under the impression that their mine was not able to be breached.  But, with that ninja change and it only being told to you.. they didn't even know their stuff was able to be taken.


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Between MR leaving sometime Sunday after JK had assembled a counter force and then showing up the next day for what I assume was the drain (Correct me if I'm wrong) there was a time period of 10? (also correct me if I'm wrong) hours were there was no MR presence on Sparta. Any remaining items in the safe mine could have been moved at that time.

 

But as far as everyone was concerned, no changes to game mechanics were made to warrant moving said items. So, everyone continued to go about business as usual...oh yeah, except for the people that knew about the change to the game mechanics.

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Dear Rolf, 


 


That's a nice write up.  But honestly, I'm still looking for an answer to the question of why things are getting decided in IRC with no mention on the forums. This happens way too often.  I'm sitting here, a pve person who only plays on freedom, and even I see the flaws in all this.  I can only imagine how the folks on that deed must be feeling.


 


The only reason I'm posting and sorta getting involved in this, even though I'm pve and some may think it's not my business, is because it all comes down to the biggest burr under my saddle that I can think of with this game. The IRC issue.  That issue bites us all on the ass, pvp and pve alike, and quite honestly has damn near made me quit a few times.  Too many times have we seen changes go in and when someone complains that it was never mentioned, someone else posts an IRC log and says "yes it was."


 


In the current issue, I just have to ask...why did the folks who's deed was raided not know that this "bug" was supposedly fixed.  I don't play there, but seems to me if they'd known about it, things would have played out quite differently.  So why didn't they know?  The other side seemed to be very well versed in it. Could it be because not everyone chooses to camp IRC?  Why are things decided in IRC and no one else knows anything about it until after something happens, with never a peep about it on the forums which are supposed to be the "official" channel?


 


Rolf, I'm trying to be as polite as I can and I'm typing this with the best of intentions.  Please, for the love of all that's holy, please stop deciding things in IRC with your buddies and not making things clear in advance on the forums.  Whether they really are your buddies or not is totally irrelevent.  This is the impression it gives and it gives your game a bad name.


Edited by Amadee
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@ alaskenbob


 


We were all still under the assumption that the items were safe in a reinforced mine. Nobody in the public (from what I'm aware) knew they had a security flaw in them by the powers of Rolf, by activating IRC.


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16:38 <&Rolf> no i have other important things to do in my life besides listening to upset players that do not agree with a ruling

 

Are you kidding me?  Are you intentionally trying to kill the game?

 

Love this game, but this is the kind of comment that makes me want to quit on principle. (Rolf's part)

Edited by Kirtah
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I cannot for the life of me understand why a game developer would completely side with a faction over another one in what I can assume is just complete favoritism, not to mention the fact the game dev does not even remotely care about the complaints about that decision.


 


MR-Chaos remains to be the most listened to group by Rolf as far as I can tell, because this is not the second time this has happened in Wurm, there was a deed on HOTS-Wild owned by a fellow named Griebo I remember MR could not get inside that deed despite multiple attempts at trying so they asked Rolf to have things changed to benefit them getting in and sure enough he listened.


 


But the worst part in my opinion is that Rolf would change something in game to help the enemy DURING THE SESSION OF PVP AND THEN TELL THEM THE CHANGE BUT NOT THE DEFENDER. That was and is the dumbest thing I have ever seen happen in this game, regardless of my joy that this might be the nail in the coffin for Chaos as a pvp server.


 


I know this opinion may not be popular, but I want to see a more diverse GM team as well. I think there is a heavy lack of JK, JKE, BL, and BLE moderators in the game.


 


Finally I am just shocked at the decision the GAME CREATOR made in this situation, it is disgusting to me.


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When devs interfere pvp situation, it become retarded. Because all knowledge players know to win a war can be tampered in an instant. The whole mine thing have been there since forever, nothing wrong to wait until pvp event done to patch up such thing if you even bother to respect the players.


 


Plus, this really screw up all deed defenses, both on chaos and epic since all deeds rely on cave entrance to theirs deed while attackers usually have to enter by breaking the longhouse/walls and dirt walls. Quit listening to single faction Rolf and play your game. Feel the heat. You ain't even realize how players actions and YOUR ninja actions have caused many to quit. I though you said sorry before, that sorry is empty...


Edited by rosedragon
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What's really funny is that most of you who always acuse people for wrong decision and dictate how to run their company, have never actually run a company yourselves. But somehow in your bain there's this stupid idea that you are experts in everything ...
 

Well if that's so, go make your own game and be a billionaire maybe ?

 

The average wurm player: Developer, Economist, PR expert, Leader, Admiral, Gary,  Supreme Commander all in one ... give me a break ...

Edited by Issle

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Alaskan, the Spartans were under the impression that their mine was not able to be breached.  But, with that ninja change and it only being told to you.. they didn't even know their stuff was able to be taken.

 

 

But as far as everyone was concerned, no changes to game mechanics were made to warrant moving said items. So, everyone continued to go about business as usual...oh yeah, except for the people that knew about the change to the game mechanics.

 

 

@ alaskenbob

 

We were all still under the assumption that the items were safe in a reinforced mine. Nobody in the public (from what I'm aware) knew they had a security flaw in them by the powers of Rolf, by activating IRC.

This is true. No disagreement. However......let's pretend we are all outsiders looking in. The idea of playing a relatively (aside from res stones/mag) full loot pvp game with an impregnable safe mine vault seems....... ? Fill in the blank.

I say silly. It is bad timing for a change admittedly. We had no idea it was an implemented change until our petition from saturday got an answer on Monday.

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What's really funny is that most of you who always acuse people for wrong decision and dictate how to run their company, have never actually run a company yourselves. But somehow in your bain there's this stupid idea that you are experts in everything ...

 

Well if that's so, go make your own game and be a billionaire maybe ?

 

The average wurm player: Developer, Economist, PR expert, Leader, Admiral, Gary,  Supreme Commander all in one ... give me a break ...

 

This isn't about people telling a person how to run his company. This is a company telling their customers that they don't give a ###### about their business. And I don't need to be an expert in everything to know when you see a complaint responded to in a way with which Rolf just did, you are doing it wrong.

 

But, you get a 7/10 from me at any rate. Decent troll, but this topic is too hot right now to get a perfect 10.

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[02:17:29] <Lau> Can someone explain why staff is interfering in PvP events on Chaos?
[02:17:44] <Lau> @Rolf
[02:18:24] <Rolf> because the disintegrate spell was bugged
[02:18:36] <Rolf> i explained that it was supposed to work
[02:18:46] <Rolf> and we found a bug with it
[02:19:12] <reddd> smiley.gif Thanks rolf!
[02:19:13] <Lau> so it is a bug that it does not work on reinforced tiles?
[02:19:30] <Rolf> yes
[02:19:31] *** christa has joined #wurm
[02:19:32] *** garrettwademan has joined #wurm
[02:19:39] <Lau> This has been known forever though, it's even in the wiki
[02:19:44] *** Aquashaft has joined #wurm
[02:19:46] <Lau> so why change it now?
[02:19:47] <reddd> Nope, theres a code in for it
[02:19:52] <garrettwademan> ^
[02:20:01] <reddd> We succeeded o nthe cast, it didnt dissapear so rolf poped it
[02:20:12] *** Bloodyhell has joined #wurm
[02:20:15] <Lau> what in the actuall hell
[02:20:20] *** Thorin809 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[02:20:20] <Bloodyhell> toooop
[02:20:23] *** Horton has joined #wurm
[02:20:23] <Lau> staff is not supposed to influence PvP affairs
[02:20:25] <Bloodyhell> this game
[02:20:31] <Lau> you have to be kidding me
[02:20:34] <Senoka> this is end
[02:20:47] <garrettwademan> you can still rebuild...
[02:20:49] <Lau> you cannot seriously think this was a good idea Rolf
Logging started 2014-03-25
[02:21:58] *** You have joined #wurm
[02:22:00] <Lau> And greetings to all the MR joining the show
[02:22:03] <Senoka> so it was interfenrence
[02:22:05] <Senoka> nice
[02:22:15] <Lau> Rolf breaking the rules for staff
[02:22:19] <Lau> Never have I laughed so loud
[02:22:19] <Senoka> sweet
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[02:22:28] <Lau> if this isn't bias I don't know what is
[02:23:00] <Senoka> can rolf just disband all kingoms except mr. i guess that will be best for wurm/chaos
[02:23:13] <Lau> this is just low
[02:23:25] <Lau> what is the business with that cart anyway
[02:23:53] <Noizhead> so does that mean WL kingdoms can make vaults that're safe from any BL attackers?
[02:24:00] <Rolf> lau we reserve the right to to help out with game breaking bugs
[02:24:05] <Bloodyhell> no Noiz you can get Rolf to pop the tile
[02:24:16] *** Worldtender has joined #wurm
[02:24:17] <Senoka> it was not but cause no infoes
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[02:24:28] <Lau> @Rolf you reserve the right to interfere in a PvP situation
[02:24:31] <Lancelot> hi mini
[02:24:36] <Miniroll> o/
[02:24:42] <Rolf> it turned up because you thought you created a safe vault that is not supposed to be possible to create
[02:24:44] <Senoka> no bug fixing in pvp situatuion
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[02:24:48] <Rolf> which is an exploit
[02:24:56] <Senoka> nope it is breaking mechanicks
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[02:25:01] <Bloodyhell> hm Rolf
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[02:25:05] <Senoka> u need give us 24h non action time to fix it
[02:25:05] <Lau> exploit?
[02:25:08] <Bloodyhell> why did you not fix it when Jk raided Kratos then
[02:25:12] <Senoka> not exploit - game bug
[02:25:16] <Lau> if safe mines are an exploit
[02:25:22] <Lau> why have they not been removed years ago
[02:25:25] <garrettwademan> next to prevent storage on merchants
[02:25:26] <Lau> when you made it possible to create them?
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[02:25:32] <Lancelot> this convo could get messy
[02:25:32] <Rolf> the bug never surfaced apparently
[02:25:36] <reddd> Not sure there was a safe mine 5 tiles onto deed BH
[02:25:41] <Senoka> that bug should fixed only in case if you give both sides time to refix all doings
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[02:25:48] <Bloodyhell> ah my bad it only surfaces when MR need it
[02:25:49] <Lau> so suddenly
[02:25:55] <Lau> you change game behaviour while a raid is under way
[02:26:03] <Senoka> why just come into pvp action and give our loot away?
[02:26:04] <Lau> without giving defenders an opportunity to fix it
[02:26:08] <Senoka> why not stop for 24h
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[02:26:12] <Lau> how can you even think about doing this
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[02:26:17] <Rolf> i am pretty certain it said disintegrate would work on reinforced tiles when it was released but maybe not
[02:26:18] <Senoka> when we can fix it?
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[02:26:31] <garrettwademan> it surfaced ages ago BH, at GoTL for a fact which you guys pulled the same thing and we got nothing
[02:26:35] <Senoka> siure or not- it is not changes /fixed during pvp
[02:26:38] <Senoka> only after
[02:26:38] <Kunibert> don't worry, all the raids i've been apart of epic and all the suggestions it only gets changed this one time
[02:26:38] <Rolf> what would you have done to fix it if you couldn't create that safe vault?
[02:26:45] <Senoka> or some stop
[02:26:59] <Senoka> if we knoe it is bug
[02:27:01] <Lau> we would have moved the valuable items to a safe location?
[02:27:05] <Senoka> we just move it in normal safe place
[02:27:13] <Senoka> just give all items back and 24h
[02:27:15] <Atazoth> Rolf , are completely collapsed vaults really an exploit? because with disintergrade they can be undone. and it has been done many times
[02:27:31] <garrettwademan> you just lied
[02:27:35] <Kunibert> we've been blocked fromg etting loot so many god damn times
[02:27:38] <Senoka> why it was 24h when Tyre raid bug
[02:27:39] <Kunibert> because of that
[02:27:40] <Senoka> but not now?
[02:27:43] <Kunibert> and now they get it removed for them
[02:27:47] <Senoka> all cation should be stopped
[02:27:55] <Bloodyhell> rolf do you reserve the right to refund all premium
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[02:28:01] <Senoka> it was pvp situation
[02:28:09] <Miniroll> We just got the suceed on the reinforced wall but it didnt fall, hence rolf.
[02:28:10] <Lau> You have no shame
[02:28:14] <Lancelot> lol
[02:28:17] <garrettwademan> i'll miss you bh, take care bud
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[02:28:45] <Lau> I don't believe that a serious game developer can act like this in front of his entire playerbase
[02:28:50] <Bloodyhell> chaos will be real fun without me garret don't worry lol
[02:28:52] <Senoka> it is not our fault that mechanics works wrong
[02:28:57] <Senoka> wurm is not beta
[02:28:58] <Lau> but I guess balance was never a concern anyway
[02:29:04] <garrettwademan> atleast the forum will
[02:29:06] <Senoka> to fix it so sudden during action
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[02:29:09] <Rolf> needless to say i have no way of knowing how you would be able to move it to a safe location whatever that would be
[02:29:12] <Lancelot> blah blah blah
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[02:29:24] <Senoka> if we know before sealed - that is exploit
[02:29:28] <Senoka> we never put it here
[02:29:31] <Lau> But you should know that this is the wrong way to act @Rolf
[02:29:35] <Senoka> we had way move it safetly
[02:29:40] <Lancelot> why should you guys  get something reverted ? we never got the bl moved back
[02:29:40] <Kunibert> you've been able to do this for years and out of nowhere you can't
[02:29:44] <Senoka> as we did with sword of mag
[02:29:46] <Lau> mechanics have NEVER been changed immediatly
[02:29:46] <Rolf> you think it is wrong lau
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[02:29:52] <Zarmazarmaex> You guys believed that it was impossible to get in, right?
[02:29:53] <garrettwademan> never!?
[02:29:54] <reddd> They wernt Lau
[02:29:55] <garrettwademan> LOL
[02:29:58] <Rolf> it's an opinion
[02:29:59] <reddd> This mechanic has been in for a while
[02:30:01] <Rolf> i have intervened before
[02:30:10] <Kunibert> have fun onc haos, friends
[02:30:12] <Horton> MR please do not speak in IRC - thanks
[02:30:23] <Lancelot> lol
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[02:30:51] <Rolf> fact is you let them raid your deed
[02:30:55] <Senoka> then why it was 24h ban during tyre raid?
[02:30:56] <Rolf> they won
[02:31:05] <Lau> @Rolf. I am just disappointed that you can make such decisions. Now the word is out that you can get the man himself to work in your favor if you cry hard enough. Is that the playerbase you want?
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[02:31:10] <Kunibert> they have 3x our numbers 24/7
[02:31:12] <Kunibert> rolf please
[02:31:14] <Senoka> we had enough time to move if we know it is brocken mechanics
[02:31:19] <Bloodyhell> LOL Rolf
[02:31:32] <Senoka> why you just changed rules during raid
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[02:31:41] <Senoka> why no 24h stop ation? as it was in tyre
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[02:32:01] <Senoka> why all ppl in tyre can log and take loot. but what now bug fixind different?
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[02:32:18] <Netsky> all the yuros
[02:32:22] <Netsky> gone
[02:32:35] <Senoka> never payd
[02:32:38] <Lau> You have no idea how this game works @Rolf, do you?
[02:32:47] <Senoka> just dont what when rules changes during pvp action
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[02:32:56] <Senoka> why was no stop on pvp?
[02:33:00] <Senoka> no time to fix it?
[02:33:44] <Rolf> the bug surfaced when they had wasted the mana to get in
[02:33:55] <Rolf> it became apparent that it did not work on reinforced tiles
[02:34:00] <Lau> @Rolf you don't check forums or ask the kingdoms how the PvP is working. You wait until MR encounters a problem so they whine and send you page long emails
[02:34:05] <Senoka> but if not worked
[02:34:14] <Rolf> i am pretty sure i have helped other kingdoms before lau
[02:34:14] <Senoka> then make anouncment. stop action on PVP server
[02:34:17] <Rolf> i don't keep track
[02:34:21] <Lau> @Rolf they had wasted mana? favor takes minutes to be replenished. No loss for them
[02:34:36] <Senoka> we lost 1000k of favor on chanted tools
[02:34:40] <Senoka> if count in favor
[02:34:43] <Lau> @Rolf indeed you have. But you only do it when people start whining like little sillies
[02:34:52] <Senoka> that is not how game deals.
[02:34:52] <Maurizio> it doesnt take mins when you have lots of gems with stored favor
[02:34:53] <Rolf> i have to go i don't think anything i say can make you feel better
[02:34:58] <Maurizio> or lots of ropes 
[02:34:59] <Lau> instead of examining the situation and keeping yourself informed. It leads to very bad quick fixes
[02:35:06] <Rolf> this is fairly pointless
[02:35:12] <Bloodyhell> yeah leave when things get complicated
[02:35:13] <Senoka> just lets all goes back and 24h stop pvp action. that is only fair
[02:35:15] <Bloodyhell> is this EA
[02:35:18] <Jberg> Take care Rolf
[02:35:31] <Senoka> cause we playend in wrong information about wrong mechanics.
[02:35:41] <Rolf> no i have other important things to do in my life besides listening to upset players that do not agree with a ruling
[02:35:53] <Senoka> ok ty for nice game
[02:35:58] <Lau> Is used underground to destroy rock tiles. Doesn't work on reinforced tiles or veins. - from wiki
[02:35:59] <Bloodyhell> not gonna have many players with that attitude I'm afraid but up to you
[02:36:01] <Bloodyhell> take care
[02:36:02] <Aquashaft> listening to your customers isn't important?
[02:36:14] <Senoka> we pay mone
[02:36:19] <Rolf> do you know my other appointment aquashaft?
[02:36:21] <Senoka> so rolf dont care about players
[02:36:26] <Rolf> how do you know which is most important?
[02:36:34] <Rolf> sorry but i have to leave
[02:36:36] <Senoka> we play in game you made
[02:36:40] <Rolf> take care people sorry that i upset you
[02:36:41] <Senoka> yo dont care about game
[02:36:43] <Lau> guys chill please
[02:36:46] <Senoka> ok
[02:36:48] <Rolf> bye
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[02:36:56] <Lancelot> wow.....just..wow.
[02:36:57] *** Rolf has quit (Quit: L?mnar)
[02:37:27] <Lau> Nice work MR
[02:37:36] <Lau> you outdid yourselves in manliness
[02:37:36] <Maurizio> its not MR fault
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[02:38:04] <Netsky> rolfs pr skills are the best
[02:38:23] <Bloodyhell> the levels of top have never been reached before
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Full IRC logs for those that pick and choose a certain log out of IRC, read all and make a judgement.

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This is true. No disagreement. However......let's pretend we are all outsiders looking in. The idea of playing a relatively (aside from res stones/mag) full loot pvp game with an impregnable safe mine vault seems....... ? Fill in the blank.

I say silly. It is bad timing for a change admittedly. We had no idea it was an implemented change until our petition from saturday got an answer on Monday.

 

Bob, I don't have a problem with the exploit being dealt with, and even with input from the community over a short period of time, but the real issue here is with how it was implemented. And I'm pretty sure everyone knows that this ###### was handled like a total amatuer. Even the trolls will know this...trust me, I am one of them.

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I cannot for the life of me understand why a game developer would completely side with a faction over another one in what I can assume is just complete favoritism, not to mention the fact the game dev does not even remotely care about the complaints about that decision.

MR-Chaos remains to be the most listened to group by Rolf as far as I can tell, because this is not the second time this has happened in Wurm, there was a deed on HOTS-Wild owned by a fellow named Griebo I remember MR could not get inside that deed despite multiple attempts at trying so they asked Rolf to have things changed to benefit them getting in and sure enough he listened.

It also happened years ago too, a certain spell I remember got changed because MR didn't like it and complained about it. Why fungus is now what it is.

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I agree loot shouldn't be 100% secure in a cave


 


Doesn't mean you can get a Dev to break into it for you. (whether the feature was bugged or not, fore warning for everyone about the change, it happens in all games when it comes to item security)


Edited by MetalDragon
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At that last bit of IRC logs....


 


 


I don't even....


 


Hey, ban me if you want, but ###### this game now. I can't believe I just dropped more money on three premium accounts. Un-######-real. I feel so duped right now.


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Edited because wurm forum pvp is useless 

Edited by Orb

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What a bad decision. So unfair (wow that IRC log...) I hope something good comes from this, and that Sparta can recover things lost.


Edited by Alagrexa
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Fully agree with this whole post. Good job Rolf. I do, however, disagree that they should be fully refunded for the loot we gained because of an undocumented change to code. We can argue for days if they had moved it somewhere else had we got it... well we may have raided the next place and so on. Sure, some form of refund, a gold or two, who knows, and lets move on. Play as-is.


 


As for the whole thing - This is what happens when you do not document changes. Rolf please document any and all changes. I just want to say this is NOT our fault (Empire of Mol Rehan), and any blame directed towards us is just unnecessary attempts to create propaganda.


Edited by Redd
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This isn't about people telling a person how to run his company. This is a company telling their customers that they don't give a ###### about their business. And I don't need to be an expert in everything to know when you see a complaint responded to in a way with which Rolf just did, you are doing it wrong.

 

But, you get a 7/10 from me at any rate. Decent troll, but this topic is too hot right now to get a perfect 10.

I'm not really trolling ... I'm just pointing out that people are overreacting. There was a mistaken -according to many- judgement. Hell who doesn't do mistakes. For us fanatic football spectators, it's common for referees to sometimes take the wrong decisions. But as Rolf said, Sparta will get compensation for what happened.

 

What's really sad is that people only remember the mistakes and the bad things that happens to them and they never appreciate the good ones which they always tend to forget.

Edited by Issle

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Fully agree with this whole post. Good job Rolf.

 

As for the whole thing - This is what happens when you do not document changes. Rolf please document any and all changes. I just want to say this is NOT our fauls (Empire of Mol Rehan), and any blame directed towards us is just unnecessary attempts to create propaganda.

unnecessary to create propaganda?  I think it is necessary to create propaganda from this,  it gets people motivated to fight against people.  Good or bad.  So in a way MR you might get more pvp from this or you might not.  Who knows. 

 

Though if you believe it isn't MR's fault then all gear and items gotten from this "vault" should be returned to show it wasn't your fault and show good standing.

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It has not taken me long to see how corrupted chaos pvp is..and people wonder why it's broken..wonder why no one plays there..the only people that say otherwise are  the ones that get their way everytime.  Not to mention how top heavy...tipping over..like an elephant on a tooth pic,  are moderators in  or part of one sole kingdome.  Is there any suprise outcomes eventuate to favor once constantly.   It must be clear on  a cursory glance why that server is so broken!!!  from the lockdown of spawn sites where leading kingsom camps kills noobs..to the constant pressure  of complain the hardest as a driving force shaping game dev n changes. There presists a very clear bias,  where there can be no suprise why people lose interest.  This clearly could  not have been the intent on onset..yet why does it keep being perpetuated n fostered?

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I'm not really trolling ... I'm just pointing out that people are overreacting. There was a mistaken -according to many- judgement. Hell who doesn't do mistakes. For us fanatic football spectators, it's common for referees to sometimes take the wrong decisions. But as Rolf said, Sparta will get compensation for what happened.

 

What's really sad is that people only remember the mistakes and the bad things that happens to them and they never appreciate the good ones which they always tend to forget.

 

Well, what you say is true to an extent.  It's human nature to remember the bad, especially when the bad costs you RL money.  But when the bad keeps happening in the same way every time, it becomes harder & harder to forget. It's called pattern recognition  People are understandably upset.

 

I think the underlying issue, the IRC thing, really needs to be addressed. It is most definitely a pattern.  It's an ongoing issue & doesn't appear that it will ever change since neither Rolf nor anyone at Code Club seem to see anything wrong with it.  Had things been properly & professionally made clear in advance instead of seemingly in the shadows, like so many other things, I'm quite sure this never would have become an issue.

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