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Iulianx

PvP Discussion

Wurm PvP  

76 members have voted

  1. 1. Are you happy with how PvP currently works in Wurm?

    • Yes, It is Perfect!
    • Yes but there is room for some changes
    • Not interested in changes, I PvP anyways
    • No, It has major flaws that need to be solved
    • Undecided/Other
  2. 2. Describe your PvP experience.

    • PvP Veteran
    • Experienced PvPer
    • Casual Fighter
    • I would like to take part in PvP but..


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PVP suggestions cannot be made by people on the server and expect success.


 


The only way that happens is via irc, if its posted on the forums, other kingdoms will simply disagree because they dislike you but agree with you behind your back in their own TS/alliance chat (not all suggestions, but a fair bit.)


 


The ones that are slightly pvp related and are agreed upon by all kingdoms, which is extremely are, are either entirely ignored or only used slightly.


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Please explain to me why it is so?

From what I know, if you PvP you will lose more skills than gain, so doing PvP will not help you progress your character-skill.

 

You join a PvP group then what? You still have to grind stats besides fighting.

 

uh wat.  If you die in pvp you lose .25 fs and like, 0.01 body/str, ok?  You easily gain fs back from pvp kills, or just kill a few greenish mobs and gain even more fs in short time

 

On Epic, there's plenty of people with terrible accounts pvping, because it's all a group effort and teamwork/listening/learning goes a lot further than having a great account.

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Even if they made PVP amazing, the majority of wurm players will still not want to do it.  There is too much time and RL investment into deeds to risk on a PVP server for most of the players drawn to Wurm.

 

Making the system eye catching, intuitive, and revolutionary still won't attract existing players to Wild/Chaos or Epic.

You're thinking of pvp as just the battle engagement, but to truly change pvp, and make it interesting, ablanced and appealing it would require balancing the meta aspects of pvp, including making sure that your months work wouldn't be ruined by your one night's sleep, or because you took a break from wurm to have a real life. That's one of the most damning aspects of the PvP aspect of Wurm. But not the worse, there's the ridiculous combat system, poor balance, and too much apparent GM friendlyness towards one or another kingdom (this part based on what i see happening in the forums, and petitions from other players, i don't play PvP, so i'm just repeating what i read).

 

 Simple way to kill the game....

For those on Epic, maybe, so less than a third of the playerbase.

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You're thinking of pvp as just the battle engagement, but to truly change pvp, and make it interesting, ablanced and appealing it would require balancing the meta aspects of pvp, including making sure that your months work wouldn't be ruined by your one night's sleep, or because you took a break from wurm to have a real life. That's one of the most damning aspects of the PvP aspect of Wurm. But not the worse, there's the ridiculous combat system, poor balance, and too much apparent GM friendlyness towards one or another kingdom (this part based on what i see happening in the forums, and petitions from other players, i don't play PvP, so i'm just repeating what i read).

 

For those on Epic, maybe, so less than a third of the playerbase.

 

Is that you agreeing with me, or just restating what I was trying to say?

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I've been playing Wurm off and on for years now.  Why did I join?  For the pvp... Yet, I've never done Wurm pvp.  After Runescape ruined their pvp system I went looking for another game with high stakes (full loot) pvp and found Wurm.  High stakes is the only thing that gets my adrenaline pumping.  I've spent plenty of time on the major MMOs and while they have great combat systems, the risk/reward is gone along with most of the fun.


 


The problem I see with pvp is the skill level differences.  There are people with 90+ fight skill that will destroy those with lesser skill.  That is not very appealing to me, so I continue to grind on the pve server in hopes that one day I'll be on par with the seasoned veterans and join them.


 


The fix that would get me pvping today is to copy a system like Runescape's wilderness.  Every player would need to have an overall combat level calculated.  Then you would take a portal or sail (or other means) to a designated pvp server.  You would arrive in a small no-combat area.  The farther you travel from this area, the greater the combat level difference between you and your foes would be.  This would let players of any skill level have fair, competitive fights and the ability to take as much risk as they want.  <-- (obviously a few more details would need to be ironed out).


 


I'm sure I haven't considered every way this would impact the current system and I see nothing but negative impact to the people currently on pvp servers.  However, as I stated, this is the system that would get me pvping today instead of another year or two from now.


 


I still marvel at how Wurm combines one the most sophisticated combat systems I've ever seen (stamina tied to health, wounds to individual body part) with one of the least (stand still and let the numbers do everything).  It would be fun if I could use this combat system on a level playing field (and crossing servers for a friendly duel with stakes is possible but not very appealing either).


 


You have my opinion, now rip me a new one. Thanks.


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I think there are a lot of changes that can be made to improve PvP and make it more easy for people to get in or even force it. Identifying what your want from PvP and finding the right combination is the key trough.


 


If you wish for more open space battles you could add a combination of a Renown and Party system (Again thinking at Mount and Blade).


For example:


 


 - A group of players can band togheder in a party led by a person carrying a  special kingdom banner and roam. This is an open challenge for PvP.


 - Another group from an enemy kingdom cn accept the challenge and have as a goal to capture the enemy banner while risking to lose their own.


Maybe the banner could give a small speed bonus to the team that captures it so it can make its escape.


 - The Stakes would be Renown or even Karma for the winning side, Renown could be a new resource that could be used to purchase certain kingdom related objects. You would need a certain renown pool to create a PMK or to receive a kingdom title or to get an temporary upkeep discount (these are just examples from the top of my head.)


 - The encounter should contain a minimal instance to calculate the intensity of the fight, deaths, skill of killed players, surviving players from each side and so on to decide the Renown gained, apply penalties or bonuses. For example you would gain little to no honour if you made an alt group to abuse the mechanic.


 - If a third party joins the fight the honour rating will be calculated according to what group it helps, THe third party will not receive any renown from the battle.


 


 - Banners should be mainly granted by the King or people from the office or bought using Renown, And there should also be a time limit, ex. 1 banner/day, max 10 banners.


 


Again this is a proposition, there is much that can be done to promote PvP in more unconventional ways.


 


Edit: Added outside intervention situation.


Edited by Iulianx

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I think there are a lot of changes that can be made to improve PvP and make it more easy for people to get in or even force it. Identifying what your want from PvP and finding the right combination is the key trough.

 

If you wish for more open space battles you could add a combination of a Renown and Party system (Again thinking at Mount and Blade).

For example:

 

 - A group of players can band togheder in a party led by a person carrying a  special kingdom banner and roam. This is an open challenge for PvP.

 - Another group from an enemy kingdom cn accept the challenge and have as a goal to capture the enemy banner while risking to lose their own.

Maybe the banner could give a small speed bonus to the team that captures it so it can make its escape.

 - The Stakes would be Renown or even Karma for the winning side, Renown could be a new resource that could be used to purchase certain kingdom related objects. You would need a certain renown pool to create a PMK or to receive a kingdom title or to get an temporary upkeep discount (these are just examples from the top of my head.)

 - The encounter should contain a minimal instance to calculate the intensity of the fight, deaths, skill of killed players, surviving players from each side and so on to decide the Renown gained, apply penalties or bonuses. For example you would gain little to no honour if you made an alt group to abuse the mechanic.

 - If a third party joins the fight the honour rating will be calculated according to what group it helps, THe third party will not receive any renown from the battle.

 

 - Banners should be mainly granted by the King or people from the office or bought using Renown, And there should also be a time limit, ex. 1 banner/day, max 10 banners.

 

Again this is a proposition, there is much that can be done to promote PvP in more unconventional ways.

 

Edit: Added outside intervention situation.

 

 

2500+ posts, and I am left wondering if you even really play this game.

 

All ###### aside, honest question here, have you ever seen an enemy in game?

 

Or is this a really long, drawn out, round about way, of you introducing what you'd like to see PvP become because you don't like the all or nothing aspect of the loot system?

 

This is not a troll, it's just the way I talk and I know I come off as brash, and crude, but I can't change who I am. If it offends you, tough titties.

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What dose this have to do with the loot system? I actually do not think the loot system needs to be touched.


And yes I have seen enemies but I never actually PvPed because every time we where busy playing cat and mouse instead of actually fighting. (died 6 times out 7, and the seventh time I barely managed to edvade a preist on horse with a dominated champ troll.)


 


This is just a wild idea, I am trying to be creative about the system, I think there is not much reason to actually fight a fair and classic battle, Most of the Wurm PvP I experienced was Noobhuting and once on a rare ocasion the group I was part of went to steal horses (ofcours while everyone was offline).


 


I do admith that I never participated in HotA so i have no idea what goes there but from what I read that isn't working and I think something at the core of the PvP mechanics needs to be changed, like the actual fighting system the way gears and skill work and the reasons for which people PvP.


 


Because I play the game for a long time dose not mean that I accepted all its flaws and only want tiny improvements or balance in the favour of my kingdom.


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Maybe they want to get into it mang.


Doesn't say 'ONLY PVPERS ARE ALLOWED TO DISCUSS!'.


 


Also, I didn't read any of the thread because in reality.. nothing said here will ever come to light or matter at all.  


If it does, I will be very.. very surprised.


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To everyone that thinks that we should replace Wurm's combat model with a twitch based model that depends on player skill such as Mount and Blade it'll never be fair. It might work to some extent if Wurm were large enough to have different servers in different regions with enough people playing them to make it worthwhile but as it stands all the servers as far as I know are in one location. Anyone near there would have a significant advantage and anyone that wasn't would have no hope of competing. Even with the players and the nearby servers getting something working like this with low latency in a complex dynamic environment rather than a tiny instanced map would be a challenge for companies with a much larger budget. Plus it just doesn't mesh with Wurm's style of play. Character skill and developing it is what wurm's all about. If someone were to suggest that people should be able to jump into PvE and design massive structures, handle large slopes, and be able to imp items and tools to 90QL right off the bat they'd be flamed off the forums. However that doesn't mean you're totally useless in PvE at the start and similarly you aren't useless in PvP. You won't be soloing a well developed character but you might turn the tide as part of a larger group that's well coordinated.

To everyone that's afraid of loss and wants some silly notion of instanced PvP where the map is restored after combat it's just silly unless you include items as well. Structural damage is typically very limited as raiders are after loot unless you've just annoyed someone and they're doing the attack out of a grudge. The items the raiders can take can be much more costly and/or time consuming to replace. If the raiders can't loot and the defenders have no reason to defend themselves, why is anyone going to bother to PvP? And like above this is more about the individual rather than the community as defence, territory control, and helping recover after an attack is something the kingdom should be taking part in. If you want to play like on freedom and just do your own independent thing with no care for the current politics or make connections with your kingdom you're simply playing the complete version of Wurm wrong. If you're playing as part of your kingdom you're going to be better defended, not lose as much, and chances are you'll receive plenty of help and recovery won't be so much of an issue. Wurm is meant to be a *massively multiplayer* open ended sandbox game with dynamic borders and player driven politics, rather than having stupid small scale instanced skirmishes with no impact.

Wurm PvP is far from perfect and has room for many improvements, tweaks, and balancing. It's just silly when someone doesn't bother even trying to PvP in wurm because they've heard plenty of FUD and they decide that they don't like it, however they do like PvP in another MMO so they just suggest dumping wurm PvP for the PvP model of an entirely different game. Typically a game that doesn't mesh with Wurm's style in any way shape or form. Can you imagine if someone did this with the PvE parts of wurm? Someone makes a post on the suggestions forum, says they've never played wurm because it sounds stupid and boring with all the grinding and suggest that instead Wurm should be made more like minecraft and to remove all the skill stuff and just make everything available from the start once you get the tools you need. They'd be flamed and laughed right off the forums.

i don't play PvP, so i'm just repeating what i read).

Yeah...

Edited by Theodis
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For something in a thread to be taken in account it needs a whole lot of attention, This thread is an invitation to everyone to come up with ideas to enhance PvP and it kinda opposes Rolf's "PvP Easy fruit" thread where everyone already posted a collection of small or large ideas, I honestly fear how the Development team will interpret or select those suggestions.


 




I changed my mind, there are no PvP easy fruits, if you want to make it work you must devote a lot of time to reinvent or refine it,




 


And also taking into account this post:


 




Easy steps to fix wurm pvp.    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo3uxqwTxk0




 


@Theodis the development team dose not have to copy the Mount and Blade combat, I agree that people mention it a lot because its really simple and efficient. I just really think Wurm should have a combat more reliant on player input, a combat that is fun and engaging, even in PvE.  as I mentioned in the thread, Make combat its own reward. (playing Darksouls atm and I can't get enough of its combat system)

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@Theodis the development team dose not have to copy the Mount and Blade combat, I agree that people mention it a lot because its really simple and efficient. I just really think Wurm should have a combat more reliant on player input, a combat that is fun and engaging, even in PvE.  as I mentioned in the thread, Make combat its own reward. (playing Darksouls atm and I can't get enough of its combat system)

 

Don't want to be taken seriously? Make moar posts like this.

 

I could be a troll here and just say you are stupid to think that there is no player input in the PvP system for Wurm. That's the short reply.

 

The long of it is that you simply have no clue what you are talking about...self admittedly. Your PvP encounters are limited by a half dozen instances and an overwhelming majority of those were spent running from the PvP. Your whole PvP experience has strictly dealt with one single aspect of the experience, evading. And with this in mind you've decided that it's high time for you to suggest a better combat system for a game because it would be more reliant on player input?

 

If you want a better explanation of how Wurm PvP is player driven and not just a skill numbers game, then send me a PM in the forums here. That way I'll know I'm talking to someone who actually wants to learn, and not just some guy looking for some jimmies to rustle.

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I feel as if people are pointlessly arguing over taste and preferences.


The term PvP keeps being throw around, when what is actually meant is combat mechanics.


 


Wurm's combat mechanics are very simplistic, and personally I quite like them as they are. 


Maybe player input and feedback could be improved, and some variety to support non-standard weapon and armour loadouts could be added. 


But the core mechanics are unlikely to ever change and I wouldn't want them too.


 


PvP can mean many different things to different people.


 


My opinion is that Wurm has fantastic PvP, when you consider all aspects of the game together.


There are clearly defined logistical, political and "physical" problems that large groups of people work together to overcome and I really enjoy observing the whole thing in action, even if I spend 99% of my time crafting (Which is just another aspect of Meta PvP).


 




1. I think the most fundamental problem with getting new people in PvP are the high prerequisites before entering the battefield, You basically have to do everything except PvP to prepare for it.


 


2. The combat mechanics are not rewarding by themselves, it depends too much on stats and the knowledge on how to juggle the system.


 


3. Wurm is a Medieval Fantasy world, yet PvP tactics have no solid corespondence with the real World, instead gatehopping/champtroll.


 


4. Battle Outcomes can be very predictable, Why fight if you know you are going to lose or achive nothing if you sacrifice youself.




  1. This is a problem of perception, every player no matter their skill set will be an asset in combat as long as their attacking the right people and not willingly or unwillingly providing the enemy with useful information. There is no "You must be this tall to PvP" sign anywhere, but people impose their own restrictions on themselves out of fear of not being the best on the field.
  2. Wurm is a stat based game, having combat mechanics work on a different system would just undermine the core game. And "juggling" the system happens in every game that ever existed. Would showing statistics on weapons and armour like dps and damage mitigation help newbies make better decisions? Maybe, but given Wurm's low number of unique items it hardly matters. A 20ql sword is better than a 10ql sword even if you don't know exactly how it is better.
  3. You are directly making a comparison, in your own words, between a "Fantasy World" and the "Real World" and ask why they don't correspond, notice the problem? Besides that, mechanically there are huge differences between Wurm and reality that you can't just beat into shape to try and force real world tactics onto.
  4. Not going to touch this one.
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Allright, I will state what PvP means to me: Its any action you do that directly affects the enemy. Killing the being the most obvious one.


I do not consider crafting and hunting PvP, because you do not directly compete with any player. Or if you like to think that a race on who gets more Fighting or Weaponsmithing skill faster as PvP be my guest. 


The term you might be looking is KvK. You support your kingdom or group by crafting and whatnot.


 


 




 


There is no "You must be this tall to PvP" sign anywhere




 


Yes there are, and don't ###### me with the fact that those things are arbitrary, the reqirements to PvP represet a reality and that can't be any other way with the currest system, where you have to avoid combat with other players to get your character better at it.


 


Edit: I used the word PvP 6 times in my post.


Edited by Iulianx

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I do feel the recent buffs to armour/ weapon and stances have made a huge significant change to pvp. But the only downside is that it's still down to numbers, and what they are wearing, and if they are wearing a Kingdom title. 


 Things need changed, fed up with the target system, it's a a pain in the ass especially in a group.


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Yes there are, and don't ###### me with the fact that those things are arbitrary, the reqirements to PvP represet a reality and that can't be any other way with the currest system, where you have to avoid combat with other players to get your character better at it.

There are suggested levels, like 70+fs, 21+/31+ body control, shield skill, weapon skill, archery skill, etc, but they are by no means a requirement.

Vapetron nearly killed a player with those requirements by himself in a 2v2 I was in with him, and he only had 40fs, 30 shield, etc. He probably could have killed him alone, but I killed the other person and went to help.(I was just at those "base" requirements at the time too)

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thereturnofthecatlord still doesnt have 30 body/31 body control, aslong as you have 70 archery/70 shield skill/70 fight skill/50 weapon skill you can be very competitive, you wont be winning 1v1s with older accounts, but you can certainly help out in fights


 


i mean, if you dont have decent overall body, you prolly dont wanna be the first in, but that doesnt mean your going to just flat out get rekted everytime


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And so what if you get hammered because you rush in all Jackburton style. Have some friggin fun for once, instead of always worrying about mah gears!!!!


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I do feel the recent buffs to armour/ weapon and stances have made a huge significant change to pvp. But the only downside is that it's still down to numbers, and what they are wearing, and if they are wearing a Kingdom title. 

 Things need changed, fed up with the target system, it's a a pain in the ass especially in a group.

No. Everyone still wears plate on epic and drake on chaos :)

 

PvP needs a lot of changes, since most of the aspects Posteh is talking about here still didn't change over those 3 years. Some of them did, sure, but Wurm PvP still isn't best experience you could have. I definitely like the high stakes aspect, but it's not really rewarding to loot someones corpse after you stack so much gear you don't really need it any more.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9zCqldj-KY

 

Also - terrible memory leaks, optimization and juggling with mechanics.

Edited by Arkhir

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1. I think the most fundamental problem with getting new people in PvP are the high prerequisites before entering the battefield, You basically have to do everything except PvP to prepare for it.

 

2. The combat mechanics are not rewarding by themselves, it depends too much on stats and the knowledge on how to juggle the system.

 

3. Wurm is a Medieval Fantasy world, yet PvP tactics have no solid corespondence with the real World, instead gatehopping/champtroll.

 

4. Battle Outcomes can be very predictable, Why fight if you know you are going to lose or achive nothing if you sacrifice youself.

 

 

 

1. Epic. Do not mess with Chaos and Freedom. What you call grind others call achievement and aspiration goals.

2. I think these could be improved with key bind actions.

3. See my thread on weapons and formations.

4. Ditto.

 

Over all, I think Code Club needs to look at *why* EVE PVP is so intense and emulate those reasons (not mechanics).

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So what do you think the problems with wurm PvP are that its so unpopular?


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So what do you think the problems with wurm PvP are that its so unpopular?

Rolf

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So what do you think the problems with wurm PvP are that its so unpopular?

 

Formations would solve the step-in-step-out dancing.

1x 300 walls should probably be the max height for defences.

Tower defense (needs to be worthwhile and be easy for defenders to find)

Champ trolls would be find if more creatures were usable and improvable, barding, weapons for humanoids, etc

Two BL priests, combat and enchants. 2x fully functional.

Removal of amulets.

Possible removal of shield artifact.

Shield training / grinding more active.

 

So many things.

 

One of the core things with EVE is that a good team will kill you and will destroy and loot your ship. Wurm lets you wimp out. 

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Experiencing some of the raiding mechanics really changed my view on the problem.


 


Raiding seems to turn into a server/cluster wide event since its so easy to travel and it takes so much time to breahc the defenses of a deed. this resuluts into a high amount of players accumulating in one area and the clients can't seem to handle that.


 


The other part of the PvP happens when groups of people go roaming and kill enemies that can't really defend themselves or have no will to fight. Ofcourse the attacked kingdom can answer and send a party to kill the attackers but most of the time they are long gone.


 


Another issue is the fact that quality ammounts too much in how effective is an equipment. I think the Weapon/Armor itself should have a higher base effectiveness nd quality should increase that by a curve that can gain only a 100% increase at max.  this way lower ql equipment that involves less effort making could be used with not much of a penalty.


 


Random example : An 1Ql armor piece should block 5 damage. At 50Ql it should block 8.5 and at 100Ql it would block 10. (glance rates are another discussion)


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