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Pinky

Prices for products - overpriced on Release?

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I have been looking at the price structure in Release, and when I ask how people get to a price most people say "ten iron per action".  I am interested in this system and would like to know if anyone can shed some light on this.  I do not want to hear about all the loss of material in creation, as, tbh, I think it is not right to charge your customer for stuff you did not create/did not harvest, neither is it the customer's fault if you want to trade stuff but have low skill and experience failures. Now that Release has been active for a long period of time, I believe we should be revisiting the prices set for the server right at the start when everyone was still getting heaps of fails on creation (no longer the case) and everyone was getting far less crops (no longer the case).  It seems to me there are some people who set some prices right at the start of Release, and now everyone else is just asking the same prices.  If people or smaller private traders are charging the way I am listing in this post, please let me know by leaving a comment, or by pm me on forum.


 


Here is what I could come up with using the charge per action formula:


 


1. For 1000 veggies the normal price is 1s.  If you are a farmer (the people I assume would be selling veggies as a trade) you would do the action of sow, harvest, and get 6 to 7 veggies (no raking) or 7 to 8 veggies or more, (with one more action of raking).  This means that say for 3 actions (sow rake harvest) you get 6 veggies.  Why are veggies then not priced at 50c per 1k?


2. Cooked meat: Kill, butcher, cook.  Same as above, you could say an average of about four meats per mob, for six actions you get three to four meats.  Hence following the logic of 1 iron per action, cooked meat should be priced at 2s for 1k (in most cases this seems to be correct)


3. Planks:  You chop the tree then chop it up into six logs, then saw.  So you get 6 planks per log, 6 logs per tree (for argument's sake), so that is 36 planks per tree, for 43 actions.  Following the charge per action formula, this means a thousand planks should cost 1s20c. 


4. Small nails: Mine a lump, Make 6 small nails.  7 Actions, 6 nails.  So 1k small nails should cost 1s 16c 67i


5 Large nails: Mine a lump, make 4 nails.  5 actions, four nails.  Large nails should cost 1s25c for 1k


6. Bricks: Mine a shard, make a brick.  1k should cost 2s.


7. Mortar: Dig 20kg sand (one action), dig 2kg clay ten times to get 20kg, combine twenty times to get 20 mortar (1kg clay plus 1kg sand make one mortar iirc). This means 31 actions for 20 mortar.  Mortar should cost 1s55c for 1k, not 3s when using the 'per action' formula of pricing .  


8. Iron ribbons:  Mine three iron lumps, create one ribbon.  Four actions, one ribbon.  1s33c per 1k ribbons.


9. Lumps:  Every action of mining is one action only.  In reality the price should be 20i for one lump regardless of the ql.  If there is a price for the ql, the lowest ql lumps should not be much more than 20i per 1 lump, yet it seems to be priced at about 10 to 60, per lump (depending on type of ore).  In honesty, then the same should be said about ql in veggies/crops, planks, nails, bricks, mortar etc.  Quality pricing seems to be in effect for lumps and logs, I assume bc of their value in imping.


 


Following this logic, you can now work out the price of creation for items e.g. let's say bsb:  25 planks plus four large nails plus one ribbon:  3c for planks plus 50 irons for nails plus 13.3 irons for ribbon is 3c 63i each.  Add say 3c for your time and that makes it about 6c65i per bsb.


 


Other random prices I have heard:


Horses:  Five speed horses are being priced at say 1 to 2 s for a horse, yet for a 5 speed bison people are asking from 2.5 to 4s.  I would be interested to hear from someone who is charging the same for bison as for 5 speed horses (1 to 2 s per bison).


Logs of over 72ql ranging from 3c to 25c per log - if you are selling for around 1c to 3c for logs of over 72ql, please pm me or leave a comment to this thread.


 


I would like to ask people who sell within the range I mentioned above, to please pm me here on forums or leave a comment to this thread.  Thanks!


Edited by Pinky
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I'd also like to add, that's the normal for all PVE (maybe even pvp?) servers, not just release/pristine.


 


it's basically just a go-to easy price for everyone, and also makes it so (in farmers case) skill actually matters


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I agree mortar is generaly over priced, But as I cannot be arsed to make it, mine as well buy it from someone ambitious 


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The prices for other Freedom Isles differ from Release, e.g. you buy 1k bricks for 1s and 1k iron lumps (over 50ql) for 1s on Deli.  Hence I am not asking for a price comparison with all the other servers, just if someone on Release is selling for around the prices I mentioned, can you please pm me here on forums.  Thanks.


Edited by Pinky

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its priced at what people wanna sell it for and what people are willing to pay. not much more to say on that one.


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its priced at what people wanna sell it for and what people are willing to pay. not much more to say on that one.

I agree with that statement.  It is not priced at 1 iron per action as mentioned by many sellers. As you said , it is also about what ppl are willing to pay, and as for me,  I am interested to find sellers who will sell stuff in line with the prices I mentioned, or slightly more.  If you are out there, keep pm'ing me :) thanks.

Edited by Pinky

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Two things... it's 10i per action not 1i (but your totals still add up).

The other is that to not consider material loss because that person didnt create the material is foolish. For example, I do carp and have to buy the logs. If I improve a loom to 70ql that can take up to a whole high ql log, which I have to buy.

Fundamentally, 10i/action is used as a rough baseline but other factors play a part. The effort of transporting bricks around, the boredom of making mortar, and the time for other aspects all affect how much people value their goods at. Though your numbers make sense for 100% creation chance perhaps (ignoring those other factors) you SHOULD consider difficulty when evaluating prices. Mortar is hard without high masonry, likely well above 3 actions per mortar output, and with most skills the higher skill players focus on higher return products so the bulk items are primarily made by the players with low skill. As such, current prices make sense if your main guide is effort generally required to produce.

As always, supply and demand is key. If people didnt think the price was somewhat reasonable, they would do it themselves. If the price doesn't subsequently go down due to low demand then it isn't through stubbornness, it's because nobody is willing to give their time for lower returns - they'd probably just rather play other bits of the game. Selling items is not a charitable act - to reduce the price ONLY because you find something easier than in the past makes no business sense. My prices haven't gone down over time because it's easier, they've gone down because of the rise of reasonable competition in my field and because I anticipate the increase in volume to offset the decreased margin.

Just my 2i ;)

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its priced at what people wanna sell it for and what people are willing to pay. not much more to say on that one.

 

Precisely.  Supply and demand.  Simple economics.  Less population and skilled players on Pristine & Release, thus higher prices.  Demand dictates the price.  If demand goes down or the supply goes up, the price will adjust accordingly.

Edited by Kruggan
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Been here 4 months and on Pristine. I watch forums constantly, for the specific purpose of getting familiar with prices, to insure I don't get ripped off or cheat someone when I have goods to sell.  I like the very generalized rule of 10i/per. Gives new people a starting point to work with.  I have noticed the very skilled goods, like 5s horses, enchanted tools, etc. all have the potential for big price mood swings.  I think competition to provide goods in those high end spaces is getting tougher, but basic goods, that nobody wants to be bothered with making themselves is a strong market. B&M always sells. Dirt always seems to sell. I think it is fantastic, since those are great ways for new players to earn their first serious coins.


 


Dirt has another driver behind it - Like dragons, it is a finite supply.  That should cause values to always remain strong for dirt.


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I think you mistake thinkin it is the lower skilled bulk sellers creating the price of 10i per action.

I think it is more the higher skilled players setting it, and the lower skilled players abiding by it because they could so easily be undercut by someone else if they tried I charge a more reasonable( for their efforts) price.

Also getting 10i per action isn't bad.

Anyone selling 1k bricks for under 2s is probably just looking to dump them off. It is unlikely you will find a bulk dealer taking new orders on a product for 5i / action.

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There cannot be a standard for pay items...the gold rule is: i propose a price, people will or will not buy the items, so if they buy i can try raise the price next time, they do not buy and i have to lower the price.
That rule, in Release and other servers have a limit (now): you can sell items to a token for 1i x 10QL, so that actually gives a standard lower price: no-one will sell anything for less than he can have selling it to a token, or by making an equivalent action (selling a brick QL2, or selling a corpse QL100 is the same action, the last gives much money so i'll do the last and not the first).

There are also a LOT of other things that you have not taken into account, like resources availability (if a log is  a log, i want to pay oak the price you say), chances of success at making an item (example: at 20 skills you have more than 60% of making a stone brick, but near 50% of making mortar), or difficulties at managing resources (clay is not ever-present, rock shards and bricks are not easy to transport, dirt requires only  high quantity, meat is easy to butcher from guard-killed animals and so on).
The rule of 10i per action is a base, it's not the rule that have to be applied every time.
 

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1) Veggy sell for more because skill matters, you also can't create veggy out of nothing, it takes time to make veggy.


 


2) cooked meat, yeah few actions but where are you going to find cooked meat?   Are you saying that the mobs are all lining up for you to kill one by one and no healing is required.   You can't assembly line thousands of meat, or at least most people can't  so you  are in part paying for the finding/raising of that meat.


 


3) Planks.  you might have a point.  But if people sell them for 1s/k it's hard to sell them for more.


 


4/5 no idea what nails sell for typically so I can't comment.


 


6) Bricks cost 2s/k typically is there an issue here?


 


7 Failure rates of mortar apply.  You are paying for higher skill just like you do with other raw materials such as wood/iron


 


8) Iron ribbons are 6 lumps not 3   7 actions so 70c/100 is what I recommend selling/buying for why are you cutting even your 4s/k price to 1s33c?


 


9 Lumps  You pay for skill level.  Everything under 70ql is basically to common to sell for much so 1s/k  as you go higher the pricing increases.   You can complain about the costs, but the only way you can do anything about it is to actually have the skill to mine at that level.   Once you do you can start selling iron cheaper.


 


>Following this logic, you can now work out the price of creation for items e.g. let's say bsb:  25 planks plus four large nails plus one ribbon:  3c for planks plus 50 irons for nails plus 13.3 irons for ribbon is 3c 63i each.  Add say 3c for your time and that makes it about 6c65i per bsb.


 


 


Yep, setting base costs for your materials and then setting your cost allows you to figure cost of goods, sales and delivery also come into play since someone will buy 1k nails, but unlikely to buy 1k bsb and they are harder to transport.


 


 


Horses and bison sell based on scarcity of course.  People don't have large stocks of 5speed bison yet so prices are higher


 


As with all pricing you sell things for what price you can get.   If the price that people are willing to pay is below what you feel it costs to produce you don't sell or you decide to lower your pricing.    If you want to know what prices are you have to keep an eye on the forums and chat tabs.  It takes time, but in general just looking at the merchants in the forums is usually a standard price.  


 


With costs of around 10e/month for subscription, If you watch what you buy another 3-4e month on silver purchases aren't that bad. Or if you are really stingy, there is no reason to ever have to buy from others you can make everything yourself practically  buying from others is just easier.  You decide what your time is worth.


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Rauros, with regards to oak, you just have to create the item out of oak, then you imp with other wood.  So really, high ql oak logs are not needed to make oak goods.  The whole item turns into oak if the last piece of wood you attach, is oak. Clay tiles never deplete either, and we can create sand tiles.  We are charged extra for transport of finished goods to our deeds, so I am assuming you are referring to carting the raw materials back to work stations.  I agree that this can push up price a little bit, hence it is fine to pay a bit more for the article. 


 


Old_Lando, like I said, cooked meat sell for 2s per 1k and so does bricks.  No issue there. These two articles seem to be in line with what 10i per action would dictate as a price. These articles sell for 10i per action despite these factors: For bricks:  There would be failures in making bricks, plus rocks are a finite resource...and also, making bricks is as boring as making mortar.  For meat:  There is most probably risk/skill/costly armour/costly weapons involved in hunting animals, and the meat is also bulky to cart around.  Despite these factors, these products sell for 10i per action.  


 


If you read what my post says, you will notice that I don't have an issue with people selling for whatever price they want, just with the reasoning about 10i per 1k, which does not seem to apply in a lot of cases here.  True, there are lots of things to consider.  In the end I am interested to hear from people willing to sell at lower rates. Like Xor indicated, a lot of bulk sellers ask other people to make stuff for them, then resell these items at a higher cost and basically do not do the work themselves, they just get the profit on reselling.  This in itself is no problem either, as it gives people jobs and dispensable silver.  


 


I also think that transportation of harder to carry goods like bsb's will become less of an issue now we have wagons.  I also believe that, looking at the older servers, prices will drop as more people are able to make things without high failure rates.  


 


Thanks to the people who pm'ed me with your prices.  I appreciate it.

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You also have to consider the saturation of goods and suppliers on Freedom Cluster 1 compared to P&R.  The reason why rafts (for example) are so much cheaper on cluster 1 is because there's too much supply for the demand.  It isn't really worth it to someone of a P&R skill level to sell rafts at that price, because the time investment is too costly, but an Independence player probably has the skill level to churn them out at a healthy pace.  And the only reason why P&R prices aren't more expensive is because everyone only accepts coin, and occasionally referrals or sleep powder.  This cuts out many players from the market, as premium accounts only get 2s to play with.  


 


Anyway, it's economics.  The 10i per action thing is just a ballpark guideline and in no way reflects the true nature of the market.  


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Basic economics: the price of an item is what the purchaser will pay for it.


 


If people are selling those goods effectively at a higher price, that means people are willing to pay that higher price which raises the market value of that product. If a vendor starts to undercut that price, that vendor may get more business but can still only supply so much, especially if it's a high volume bulk item like bricks and mortar which is generally always in demand.


 


Every server is going to be different in terms of market value as it's a different group of buyers and sellers. This is especially the case when you compare the old cluster with the new cluster where prices are often completely different.


 


Through this logic, items are only "overpriced" if they are not selling as effectively as they could at a lower price. The trick for any vendor, as in real life, is to make the most profit is to balance their price based on supply (the volume of goods available for sale) and demand (the players who are in the market to purchase those good).


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As most others are saying, its based upon the supply and demand. Where the 10i per action came from I do not know, but it seems to have become the go to answer for most people buying and selling. The market seems to have accepted it and thus it has stuck around.


 


In the end what you are paying for is someone elses time. If my time is worth 2s to me and I can get someone to make something in that time frame and I can pay them the 2s and have the product and the time to do something else, then for me its worth it.


 


To lower a price on an item just to be "nice" or for any other reason when you can charge more for it is just bad business. Now there are times when it is needed. A new person trying to get into the supply business, or someone looking to offload a bunch of stuff, or someone just looking to undercut. It happens all the time, but as most have seen, prices always rebound back to what the market of supply and demand sets it at.


 


Now about the prices you stated above, as for me, considering I am a bulk seller on the server you are speaking about, some of my prices do reflect what your talking about, others may not. Would I be willing to just lower my prices to reflect the "wogic" that you you are using? Only if the market reflected the need for a price change. If the market does not show that a price change is needed then its foolish to do so, even if the prices make more sense lower. People do not buy and sell based upon logic, they do it based upon the value of their time and convenience of having others do the work for them. That is what they are paying for, they are paying for more of their own time to do what they want to do while still having the items they want.


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Just a note.   Iron ribbons are 3 lumps not 6.  I just made a bunch of iron bars a couple of week ago and confused the lump requirement for ribbons with bars.   Still should be around 4s/k not 1.3 as suggested


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Mortar is ofcourse more expensive to make than stonebricks. With stonebricks, you can have 5 non-prem alts grinding away simultaniously. Not with mortar (constant failures).


It's not all about actions, it's about how annoying and time-consuming the production is.


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Going by 10i per action, and working out of a sand pit, mortar would come to 1.6s per 1k.


 


10Actions for clay + 1 action to dig dirt + 1 action to re-dig it as sand = 12 for mats + 20 combine actions = 32 actions for 20 mortar.


 


32 actions * 0.001s = 3c20i / 20 mortar = 16i per mortar * 1000 mortar = 1.6s per 1k mortar.


 


Now that is only counting timed actions, if you start counting inventory management, then it becomes a whole new world. 


 


But now with the crafting window and basically maxing out your inventory with sand and mortar and working out of a bsb it really isn't even that many inventory management actions. And combine that with leveling to get dirt and sand and mortar is so over priced it isn't even funny.


 


Even if you go back and add in a 25% failure rate, that still works out to be less than 2s per 1k. To get close to 3s you would have to add and overall failure rate of 85%


 


I guess in the end it just matters what people will pay. But just remember next time you buy mortar for 3s, the seller either failed 85% of all actions at 10i per, or they are charging 18.75i per timed action at 100% success rate.


I think the truth would be somewhere around 15i per timed action at a smaller failure rate.

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Mortar really had bumped up to 3s/k on the main Cluster when 1.0 hit, and people were suddenly in need of an immense amount of material to build colossal new housing, so I think that sort of transferred over to the Small Cluster. I've see it it sell both at 2s/k and 3s/k. The stuff is just a pain in the butt to make, so not many really want to to make it is what I've gathered.


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If you have a good digging skill or high quality mats 60+ql and around 50 masonry skill you should get around a 90% creation chance, so once you factor in wogic you are gonna fail 1 in 5 not 1 in 10. 


You don't need to use a tool to make mortar, so there isn't any upkeep or maintenance for the combines, the timers seem to be faster than bricks, and a failure results in a total loss of 0.2kg of material.


 


If you work off my 32 timed action per 20 mortar base (100% success), and apply that to bricks. in 32 actions you can only make 18 bricks. (100% success rate) ((14 mines + 18 chisels))


 


So fewer bricks per action, and failures eat more mats, plus too costs (chisel) 


 


I just don't understand the where the general perception that "making mortar sucks" comes from. Concrete yeah that sucks, but mortar is easy.


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mortar is NOT easy...quality of material is necessarily, where quality of shards is not, so you can simply fill a bsb with every kind of shard you mine/find and there's no problem, also freebie easily make lots of bricks even with their low skill and ql chisels, but they can't do that with mortar.
Fact is that: mortar is easier when you have higher skill, but at that paired skill you do not have 70% chance of making bricks, but you'll do 100% with a modest chisel, and faster than mortar.
For making shards is enough to mine rocks, but mortar needs sand and clay togheter, so maybe not everyone will have easy access to those two, then here is scarcity of resource...and whoever uses leveling instead of digging for sand and mortar, should have at least 70-80 skill in digging, as leveling produce lower QL products, and you can level clay only at 60 digging.
These are only a bit of the thing you have to take into account, that are just invisible when making price, and many people will simply not make out of them a precise value, but when decision about price have to be made, goes all in the "time i have to spend in making" option.

Ps: never spoke about QL of oak, is just that at start all the logs are valued per action, but both oak and willow are special wood that needs sprouts (that have heavy prices), needs time to grow and then have to be felled. QL of the log of oak and willow is not the issue there, that's why i never spoke about QL.

People that complains about prices should go for smaller thinking in game, there's no need of doing a house that needs 5k bricks and mortar, but they want do so, and complains because they can't do the materials required by themselves w/o die of boredom and waste premium time, so buy from the others is the only option, and they resolve to buy for the lower prices they can...
I'm a maker of those resources, and i simply don't want to sell for less, else will be a more viable option to sell corpses to my token, seeing that my guards kills so many monsters...

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Mortar really had bumped up to 3s/k on the main Cluster when 1.0 hit, and people were suddenly in need of an immense amount of material to build colossal new housing, so I think that sort of transferred over to the Small Cluster. I've see it it sell both at 2s/k and 3s/k. The stuff is just a pain in the butt to make, so not many really want to to make it is what I've gathered.

Not true, Before 1.0 mortar was 3s/k. Only recently has it began to decline down to 2s-2.5s/k on the main cluster.

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Ah, forgive me then :P


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