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JDBooker

Good old surface mining.

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Dirt - Rock

See the diffrence? Keep it slow! :)

I like the randomness too.

 

Difference?

If you're in a mine you mine 64 rocks almost in 64 actions... (okay, in the mine a rock tile is just ~50 actions)

The same rock is on the surface 500 - 2k actions...

Explain that difference please...

At least the leveling and flattening on surface would be an enourmeous help... (it works in a mine too - the only difference: no tileborders in a mine)

 

It's just a "feature" to not make people mining entire mountains... - okay...

 

At least villagers should be able to mine faster on a deed then... (just on the surface of course)... In the Mine I do 1k mining actions and got 950 - 1000 Rock shards (depending on luck)

on the surface I do 1k Mining actions and got 50 rock shards (if I'm lucky)

 

But it's still a pain... (and I just asked usually for a rise of the chance to 33%... - but if randomness consists, I'm more for 35 - 40 %) (then you got 25-30% at least...) or make a fixed 33% chance depending on skill and tool ql / dmg - the usual calculations...

 

That could work too...

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Difference?

If you're in a mine you mine 64 rocks almost in 64 actions... (okay, in the mine a rock tile is just ~50 actions)

The same rock is on the surface 500 - 2k actions...

Explain that difference please...

At least the leveling and flattening on surface would be an enourmeous help... (it works in a mine too - the only difference: no tileborders in a mine)

 

It's just a "feature" to not make people mining entire mountains... - okay...

 

At least villagers should be able to mine faster on a deed then... (just on the surface of course)... In the Mine I do 1k mining actions and got 950 - 1000 Rock shards (depending on luck)

on the surface I do 1k Mining actions and got 50 rock shards (if I'm lucky)

 

But it's still a pain... (and I just asked usually for a rise of the chance to 33%... - but if randomness consists, I'm more for 35 - 40 %) (then you got 25-30% at least...) or make a fixed 33% chance depending on skill and tool ql / dmg - the usual calculations...

 

That could work too...

 

I was comparing dirt and rock, since I don't agree with ''100% success ratio in surface mining''. I don't think rock should be anywhere near as easy to terraform as dirt.

I do not see why you compare surface rock and a rock wall all of a sudden, that's not what I was talking about. I do also not agree with surface mining being easier on deed.

 

I wouldn't mind if the succes ratio was higher with more mining and pickaxe skill. But in a way it already helps to have high skill, since actions will be faster.

Edited by Sharkin

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I was comparing dirt and rock, since I don't agree with ''100% success ratio in surface mining''. I don't think rock should be anywhere near as easy to terraform as dirt.

I do not see why you compare surface rock and a rock wall all of a sudden, that's not what I was talking about. I do also not agree with surface mining being easier on deed.

 

I wouldn't mind if the succes ratio was higher with more mining and pickaxe skill. But in a way it already helps to have high skill, since actions will be faster.

 

Yep - I didn't compared dirt and rock, but I compared rock and rock...

(Rock in a mine seems from that point to be like butter compared to surface mining - it's simply too unlogical...)

 

If I tunnel a rock tile ~50 times I got a mine entry isn't that surface mining too? Then theoretical you need to tunnel 800 times with 20% success chance too - or?

And that would be unfair to newbies who want to open a mine...

 

I have for this "prob" 3 possible solutions:

- making a solid chance bound to skill and tool (would make the world changes too fast)

- making a random chance and rise it, bound to skill and tool (would be still a chance, but higher - each rock tile more reduces the work by days)

- making at least the leveling and flattening on tiles possible (what does work in a mine should work on surface too - we have these options already on rock floor tiles in mines and all other outside) (of course with keeping the actual or a bit higher chance)

 

and - flattening and leveling on surface mining wouldn't be that great change (again - with keeping the chance to gain a rock shard)

 

//Edit:

 

Why I compare a rock tile with surface rock?

Isn't rock = rock or is there a difference between rock which lies up on the mountain (less pressure) to rock deep in the underground (high pressure)?

But then we'll would need a new material - compressed rock or granite - would make things too difficult... (then I could even ask why there's no jumping in wurm - the answer is simple - then we would have tons of "bouncy ball like newbies" jumping around ^^)

Edited by Jenks

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Yep - I didn't compared dirt and rock, but I compared rock and rock...

(Rock in a mine seems from that point to be like butter compared to surface mining - it's simply too unlogical...)

 

If I tunnel a rock tile ~50 times I got a mine entry isn't that surface mining too? Then theoretical you need to tunnel 800 times with 20% success chance too - or?

And that would be unfair to newbies who want to open a mine...

 

I have for this "prob" 3 possible solutions:

- making a solid chance bound to skill and tool (would make the world changes too fast)

- making a random chance and rise it, bound to skill and tool (would be still a chance, but higher - each rock tile more reduces the work by days)

- making at least the leveling and flattening on tiles possible (what does work in a mine should work on surface too - we have these options already on rock floor tiles in mines and all other outside) (of course with keeping the actual or a bit higher chance)

 

and - flattening and leveling on surface mining wouldn't be that great change (again - with keeping the chance to gain a rock shard)

 

//Edit:

 

Why I compare a rock tile with surface rock?

Isn't rock = rock or is there a difference between rock which lies up on the mountain (less pressure) to rock deep in the underground (high pressure)?

But then we'll would need a new material - compressed rock or granite - would make things too difficult... (then I could even ask why there's no jumping in wurm - the answer is simple - then we would have tons of "bouncy ball like newbies" jumping around ^^)

 

Still I was talking about dirt and rock. I don't want the surface to be as easy to terraform like dirt.

 

I wouldn't personally say that tunnel is surface mining, but I get what you mean since the entrance tile becomes flat. You can turn a slope into flat with 50ish actions, that would require more actions if you actually mined the rock. But then you have a entrance instead and can't terraform unless you collapse. The surface and the layer below is not the same, as you say. Why? I don't know. :) It's the way it was designed.

I agree, a leveling option would be nice for rock surface as well.

Edited by Sharkin

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Basically he bashed your dirt =/= rock by comparing other actions you take on surface rock, or underground rock that would be comparable to surface minning actions, yet are done way faster.

 

So yeah your whole argument was destroyed there. I mean starting a tunnel (the tunneling action is basically comparable to lowering one tile to flat from whatever height the highest corners are, THEN lowering that a further 20 slope (which is more or less the slope of the mine entrance) All done in 50 actions or less. If i could lower 2 corners 20 slope in 50 actions in surface minning i'd be pretty darn happy (giving the other 0-90 slope away)

Edited by KanePT

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I was on my phone at work, I am sorry for not reading it properly. I know where he is coming from. It lowers rock faster then surface mining with a solid number of actions. Still I wouldn't compare making a entrance with actual surface mining.

I was only pointing out that I don't want rock to be easy to terraform like dirt, rock and rock is a different subject.

Edited by Sharkin

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Yep - I didn't compared dirt and rock, but I compared rock and rock...

(Rock in a mine seems from that point to be like butter compared to surface mining - it's simply too unlogical...)

 

If I tunnel a rock tile ~50 times I got a mine entry isn't that surface mining too? Then theoretical you need to tunnel 800 times with 20% success chance too - or?

And that would be unfair to newbies who want to open a mine...

 

I have for this "prob" 3 possible solutions:

- making a solid chance bound to skill and tool (would make the world changes too fast)

- making a random chance and rise it, bound to skill and tool (would be still a chance, but higher - each rock tile more reduces the work by days)

- making at least the leveling and flattening on tiles possible (what does work in a mine should work on surface too - we have these options already on rock floor tiles in mines and all other outside) (of course with keeping the actual or a bit higher chance)

 

and - flattening and leveling on surface mining wouldn't be that great change (again - with keeping the chance to gain a rock shard)

 

//Edit:

 

Why I compare a rock tile with surface rock?

Isn't rock = rock or is there a difference between rock which lies up on the mountain (less pressure) to rock deep in the underground (high pressure)?

But then we'll would need a new material - compressed rock or granite - would make things too difficult... (then I could even ask why there's no jumping in wurm - the answer is simple - then we would have tons of "bouncy ball like newbies" jumping around ^^)

 

The difference is that mine rock is a renewable resource while surface rock isn't (sure... you can make concrete, but that's hard capped at a low slope). While rock = rock, a server such as Independence or Chaos would never have lasted as long as they have with this level of ease of surfacemining, sure, mountains would not be instantly flattened, but give it 8 years and I damn well promise you they would.

 

It's a game-y element, but it is such for a reason.

 

I can personally agree with the longer timer, just for peoples sanity.

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The difference is that mine rock is a renewable resource while surface rock isn't (sure... you can make concrete, but that's hard capped at a low slope). While rock = rock, a server such as Independence or Chaos would never have lasted as long as they have with this level of ease of surfacemining, sure, mountains would not be instantly flattened, but give it 8 years and I damn well promise you they would.

 

It's a game-y element, but it is such for a reason.

 

I can personally agree with the longer timer, just for peoples sanity.

And yet inde can sell dirt to other servers. Finite resource right there (unless you draft all the fo priests into making dirt with spells for a few months).

Also, if there's a hard cap on concrete, just remove, it probably was introduced because surface minning is so hard, so would kinda be a bummer to undo a grief with concrete, if surface minning was made tollerable, then the cap could be removed. See it goes in circles that...

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What's wrong with a percentage of randomness? It's the bread and butter of gaming.


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What's wrong with a percentage of randomness? It's the bread and butter of gaming.

One thing is a percentage of randomness on things that should me random. Another thing is a activity that really shouldn't be random being totally random, and not in a way that evens out in the end.

I mean surface minning rock was never even done with picks, but ok... Assuming it is done with pickaxes, a guy that has mined thousands of rock by the time knows how to hit just right for it to break in 1-2 strikes. Not random.

Also, this issue wouldn't be a issue if all servers were like inde... I mean i've dug in lots of different places on exo and dirt layer most of the times is at best 30 deep.

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What's wrong with a percentage of randomness? It's the bread and butter of gaming.

So how about we put a 1/5 chance on eating or digging or any of the other actions we take for granted will automatically succeed. Will that enhance your enjoyment of the game or just annoy you? Randomness can add to the experience in some instances but since there is no significant cost to failure you just repeat until it works. It's just tedious. It is also by no means the bread and butter of gaming and usually just a cheap attempt at adding variation with little extra work. There are a number of games which contain absolutely no randomness.

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So how about we put a 1/5 chance on eating or digging or any of the other actions we take for granted will automatically succeed. Will that enhance your enjoyment of the game or just annoy you? Randomness can add to the experience in some instances but since there is no significant cost to failure you just repeat until it works. It's just tedious. It is also by no means the bread and butter of gaming and usually just a cheap attempt at adding variation with little extra work. There are a number of games which contain absolutely no randomness.

 

No, the simple reason is - if we wouldn't have the chance on surface mining rock, entire mountains would be gone in no time...

And believe me, there are players, who are interested in turning a huge rock into a flat surface ^^

(not myself I just work on a tiny area) tiny - lol first site was ~5-10 tiles and 2nd is still 5x3 (the rest I mined already patient as I am)

 

PS.: on the first site I had lots of help (forgot to mention that)

Edited by Jenks

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No, the simple reason is - if we wouldn't have the chance on surface mining rock, entire mountains would be gone in no time...

Which is why I suggested to just increase the timer to the average length of time it takes to drop it one level now. That way it will take roughly as long without the tedious element. As I said in my first post it's not the time that's the issue.

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My only beef is how rapidly enchants fade when surface mining.
it can get pretty horrific.

 

Today i surface mined a mere 24 shards, WoA dropped from 63 to 61.

 

Then i mined another 100, WoA dropped by 1.

 

q85 pick

Edited by Steveleeb

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I wish the chance part would just be removed, instead give it a static timer of, for example, 30 seconds. Just like with wall bashing, nothing would affect the timer, so it would always be 30 seconds. I don't believe flattening and levelling should be added, but I don't think that a static 30 second timer with 100% success rate would break anything.


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its supposed to be 1 in 3 mines - but as a person who surface mines allot it does seem very random and needs a new system as it is just mostly painful to use - I mean I understand its supposed to be difficult for a reason but same time there has to be a line somewhere between tedious and fun its a game after all


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No, the simple reason is - if we wouldn't have the chance on surface mining rock, entire mountains would be gone in no time...

And believe me, there are players, who are interested in turning a huge rock into a flat surface ^^

(not myself I just work on a tiny area) tiny - lol first site was ~5-10 tiles and 2nd is still 5x3 (the rest I mined already patient as I am)

 

PS.: on the first site I had lots of help (forgot to mention that)

Inde is probably the most mountain happy place in wurm, its also mostly undeedable in areas because of that orography. Now inde has been around for 6 years and more, don't you think that even at the current "difficulty" there would have been at least 2-3 mountains gone? Yet they aren't. First because that's stupid, people that settle in mountain areas do that because its a mountain, not because they want to mate it a plains. But at the same time, specially after multi-story buildings stuff needs to be flat to be workable. And it just ain't working.

So your excuse is bad. And ffs stop making excuses for stupid stuff in the game, its stupid, was badly conceived, needs working. The devs don't require you making up excuses for them, they require honest feedback, not brown-nosing.

 

I wish the chance part would just be removed, instead give it a static timer of, for example, 30 seconds. Just like with wall bashing, nothing would affect the timer, so it would always be 30 seconds. I don't believe flattening and levelling should be added, but I don't think that a static 30 second timer with 100% success rate would break anything.

30 seconds is a bit too harsh. I like the 3 hits for 1 slope, but with current timers, this way it rewards players with higher skill, like it should.

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I'd personally be happy if they just made the timer 4x as long (or 5x if it really is a 20% chance) and call it a day.


 


The RNG of surface mining drove me nuts when I'm trying to get everything nice and even.


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Spending a longer time looking at a timer just makes it worse. There's a reason they shortened minning timers a lot in the past.


I'd rather have 3-5 short actions, but always 3-5 actions only (and by that i mean either 3 actions to lower, or 4 actions to lower, or 5 actions to lower). Instead of sometimes 2, sometimes 1, sometimes 10.


Edited by KanePT
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Spending a longer time looking at a timer just makes it worse. There's a reason they shortened minning timers a lot in the past.

I'd rather have 3-5 short actions, but always 3-5 actions only (and by that i mean either 3 actions to lower, or 4 actions to lower, or 5 actions to lower). Instead of sometimes 2, sometimes 1, sometimes 10.

^ this, staring at one huge timer is very boring. I'd even take the current RNG over this any and every day.

(Looks at meditating) yeah, let's not. >_<

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Not quite sure how a longer time is worse.


 


Let's say you have a 5 second timer and say there's a 20% chance of getting a shard.  My proposal would give you a 25 second timer and you get a shard.  If you have the stamina, you could queue up multiple actions.


 


Now your proposal is to have 5 hits to get a shard.  If you have a 5 second timer, it'd take more than 25 seconds due to stamina loss in subsequent actions.  But let's say they accounted for that and shortened the timer, so you end up, after 5 actions, spending only 25 total seconds.  Wonderful.  The same, right?


 


Well, no.  You can't queue multiple shard gaining actions (unless you're a monster that has 100 ML).  So that means you have to come back more often to check on your character.


 


You can also lose track of the number of actions.  "Did I hit this tile 3 times or 4 times?...Hrm..."  So you can waste time/effort getting the next slope.


 


The only reason I can see the "huge timer" being more boring is if you like standing on a spot and smashing your mining hotkey more often.  For me? Not so much.


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The only reason I can see the "huge timer" being more boring is if you like standing on a spot and smashing your mining hotkey more often.  For me? Not so much.

But that's exactly what you do when you're surface minning. You stand at one spot and smash the minning hotkey.

Mind you i said 3-5 actions. And its more frustrating to see a 30 s timer than  5x6 second timers. Its just how it is, psychologically those 30s will feel slower than the 6 second ones.

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But that's exactly what you do when you're surface minning. You stand at one spot and smash the minning hotkey.

Mind you i said 3-5 actions. And its more frustrating to see a 30 s timer than  5x6 second timers. Its just how it is, psychologically those 30s will feel slower than the 6 second ones.

 

The difference is that I can smash my mining hotkey 5 times and read a book/watch a movie for 2 1/2 minutes uninterrupted rather than every 30 seconds (assuming I have the stamina).

 

Or I can get up, get a drink, and use the rest room with the knowledge that I'm not wasting a single moment of Wurm time.

 

And this is assuming you have the ML for 5 actions.  What about the people with 3 actions? They have to check every 15 seconds or less!

Edited by Hailene

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What is needed is that perfect balance point or compromise where no one is happy.


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