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Sorcery: Evocator Info

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So can we reduce/remove debuffs now or does everything still think these are all omg OP game changing sorcery spells? Wait...that's if you can find a star gem and carry a staff....and want to spend up to 1k karma a pop to cast and spent XX months working on the scenario.

The only spell on that list that even comes close currently to being worth gimping your account for is continuum. Remembering these tomes/items unfortunately don't come with a users manual so someone always has to man up to test.

Edited by Gregory
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You should be able to reverse it by using the tome/cherry etc. again and using another charge


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Can one cast buff spells like Rustmonster, Continuum, Stoneskin etc on allies?

Continuum and stoneskin can't be used on anyone but yourself, so i am guessing all defensive ones cant

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So can we reduce/remove debuffs now or does everything still think these are all omg OP game changing sorcery spells? Wait...that's if you can find a star gem and carry a staff....and want to spend up to 1k karma a pop to cast and spent XX months working on the scenario.

The only spell on that list that even comes close currently to being worth gimping your account for is continuum. Remembering these tomes/items unfortunately don't come with a users manual so

someone always has to man up to test.

-1, removing debuffs Will make this a game of "who can get the most" and since you are jk which has the most used items due to all valrei bugs, it is obviously an extremely biased idea.

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The debuffs are hardly worth it for these spells. If something is going to cripple you it should have a benefit...


 


Im working on a detailed post need a day longer.


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There is cast speed modifier in there somewhere for non-religious spells, but it's not mind logic nor is it 1/10. It's mind speed and 1/25. 
So for most spells it wont do any difference in it's current state. (It seems like it is always sending the base time to the client so it might not be visible).

In general for the damage dealing spells I think they also  need to be brought into more reliable ranges of damage so that using them will be less of a gamble.

 

The summoning spells need to be separated as it is right now if you have both the worg and the wraith they can both be summoned at the same time (one cast).
Potentially rather over powered, if it worked correctly, they don't seem to like each other so they kill each other off right now.

I don't think any cast times needs to be above 30 seconds for any of the spells, even 20 seconds feel a bit too high for most. 

As I have already stated earlier in the thread I do think the buffs/debuffs should be lowered to around 5-10% , the question is if they should cancel each other out or leave you a bit more powerful or a little weaker.
I'm in favor for a bit more powerful.


 

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There is cast speed modifier in there somewhere for non-religious spells, but it's not mind logic nor is it 1/10. It's mind speed and 1/25. 

So for most spells it wont do any difference in it's current state. (It seems like it is always sending the base time to the client so it might not be visible).

In general for the damage dealing spells I think they also  need to be brought into more reliable ranges of damage so that using them will be less of a gamble.

 

The summoning spells need to be separated as it is right now if you have both the worg and the wraith they can both be summoned at the same time (one cast).

Potentially rather over powered, if it worked correctly, they don't seem to like each other so they kill each other off right now.

I don't think any cast times needs to be above 30 seconds for any of the spells, even 20 seconds feel a bit too high for most. 

As I have already stated earlier in the thread I do think the buffs/debuffs should be lowered to around 5-10% , the question is if they should cancel each other out or leave you a bit more powerful or a little weaker.

I'm in favor for a bit more powerful.

 

 

Honestly debuffs should be more major than the buffs,  sooner or later someone will have most if not all items, and if the buffs are more powerful than the debuffs it will mean that the gap between new and old players widen even further. 

 

Perhaps put the buffs at 10% or so and the debuffs at 50%

Edited by merce

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Honestly debuffs should be more major than the buffs,  sooner or later someone will have most if not all items, and if the buffs are more powerful than the debuffs it will mean that the gap between new and old players widen even further. 

 

Perhaps put the buffs at 10% or so and the debuffs at 50%

There has to be a small, or big difference between the players that actually took the time to become better then newer players, -1 to your idea.

Would suck if I spent a ton of silver getting every tome just to suck worse then a new player because there has to be a 'equal point.'

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There has to be a small, or big difference between the players that actually took the time to become better then newer players, -1 to your idea.

Would suck if I spent a ton of silver getting every tome just to suck worse then a new player because there has to be a 'equal point.'

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/95488-dec-feb-valrei-scenario-visualized/

 

You mean doing missions for a bugged system which rewards people who do less missions and then gives the item to someone who had 2 scenario points?

 

If buffs would be bigger than the debuffs, the little amount of pvp there is these days will be reduced dramaticly, especially since the valrei system is obviously not working and it is rewarding the wrong gods at most scenarios.

 

And no, you won't "suck worse" than a new player, considering that you get quite powerful spells with those items.

Edited by merce

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It is already determined the spells are not "quite powerful" as they exist now merce... You keep trying to claim it is balanced when a dev is in this thread telling everyone it's not, in fact the purpose of this discussion is to get it right...


 


I have a write up on this I will post today after work. Erik is clearly explaining how the buffs work and I am inclined to agree with him in this area.


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Honestly debuffs should be more major than the buffs,  sooner or later someone will have most if not all items, and if the buffs are more powerful than the debuffs it will mean that the gap between new and old players widen even further. 

 

Perhaps put the buffs at 10% or so and the debuffs at 50%

 

None of the spells would be worth it at those ratios, the only exception being if was debuff to acid or something. And a fire debuff isnt as crippling as a slash debuff its hard to balance and I wouldnt touch a book that has a common debuff (physical) unless spell was uber so the strong debuffs need to be linked to strong spells if gonna balance it right.  Something in the range of 20% buff to 10% nerf comes to mind, small but not insignificant, similar strength as magranon priest damage bonus.  Between 10-20 sec is standard for casting time of combat spells and seems fair.

Edited by Rushy

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It is already determined the spells are not "quite powerful" as they exist now merce... You keep trying to claim it is balanced when a dev is in this thread telling everyone it's not, in fact the purpose of this discussion is to get it right...

 

I have a write up on this I will post today after work. Erik is clearly explaining how the buffs work and I am inclined to agree with him in this area.

When did I say it is balanced? it isn't, and making everything positive will make it even more unbalanced, sure, give every item 99.9% buff and 0 debuff and everyone will be happy right?

 

If valrei would be a steady system where missions actually mattered, the buff and debuff could be at the same level, but it is not. Keep posting your extremely biased toughts which someone with an ounce of intelligence can see through, obviously they will stay the same no matter what people say due to what you believe will personally benefit you.

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It would take FOREVER to get all the buffs on one person even with a kingdom working together to put them all on one person given the random distribution and the fact some maps can last months.  Even then your not guaranteed to win the mission.  An even if you do win what if you get an Use item or one that, that person already has.... should be a reward not a punishment the ability should be fixed but fixing buffs/debuffs should be a priority right now as they can be account killers having a weak spell dose not kill your account should be 10%ish buff no debuff imo.


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Aye should someone gaining multiple buffs/debuffs be able to cancel out completely some of the buffs or debuffs? Say for example 10% vulnerability to poison with one ability and later a 10% resistance to poison from another (assuming the buff and debuff are applied in a similar manner). Course that still leaves the original buff and the later debuff, unless they too are canceled out.


 


Granted I doubt offhand theres such a perfect combination mix available for someone to remove all their debuffs. Still it would also mean they have no buffs, and would be left with just the spells/abilities.


 


Then again a "normal" player with multiple abilities could be a bit OP'ed, depending on the abilities. Perhaps some of the negatives should not be completely canceled out.


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Aye should someone gaining multiple buffs/debuffs be able to cancel out completely some of the buffs or debuffs? Say for example 10% vulnerability to poison with one ability and later a 10% resistance to poison from another (assuming the buff and debuff are applied in a similar manner). Course that still leaves the original buff and the later debuff, unless they too are canceled out.

 

Granted I doubt offhand theres such a perfect combination mix available for someone to remove all their debuffs. Still it would also mean they have no buffs, and would be left with just the spells/abilities.

 

Then again a "normal" player with multiple abilities could be a bit OP'ed, depending on the abilities. Perhaps some of the negatives should not be completely canceled out.

 

if there going to be able cancel each other out you might as well not have them at all.  Giving the relative cost of the ability to the amount of available karma using more then 1 ability every few days ( and that is being generous ) seems unlikely so having more abilities will not effect how often you can use said abilities.

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As I have already stated earlier in the thread I do think the buffs/debuffs should be lowered to around 5-10% , the question is if they should cancel each other out or leave you a bit more powerful or a little weaker.

I'm in favor for a bit more powerful.

+1 you have nailed the solution to current balancing issue right there.

10% Buff and 5% Debuff

10% Buff and 10% Debuff

5% Buff and 10% Debuff

All via able solutions, depending on the development vision for the Sorceror.

Edited by Gregory
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Then potentially a buff would completely cancel out a comparable debuff, leaving a 5% buff.


 


As for the abilities and whether or not they suck, that can easily change... unless Rolf strongly believes the amount of "suckage" is just right. Players rarely complain about something being OP'ed unless they are on the receiving end.


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Keep in mind even if they are buffed debuffed at the same rate they are not automatically equal. Someone with a 10% water debuff is much better off than a straight 10% damage debuff.


 


Some are so situational its like whoa.


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With the tomes jk has got buffs mostly seem to be uncommon things like acid and internal and debuffs seem to be common things seen every fight. Although nobody has seen all the tomes yet it is hard to say if they are all like this.


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With the tomes jk has got buffs mostly seem to be uncommon things like acid and internal and debuffs seem to be common things seen every fight. Although nobody has seen all the tomes yet it is hard to say if they are all like this.

 

You could look at Erikns previous post in this thread showing a document with the pairs of buffs and debuffs to answer your question

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/96432-sorcery-evocator-info/?p=977641

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Not really the discussion did sort of die off, will post a suggestion for all the changes I think needs to be done sometime next week. If that goes well I will get it implemented asap.


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