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DeathHuntsAlone

Suggestion to help cut down on griefing...

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There have been a lot of posts and discussion about some very antisocial gameplay on Freedom servers and a lot of people that are getting away with shady behavior because it's a loophole in the rules or the CoC.  They're clearly not worried about the "just because you can doesn't mean you should" stipulation.   Part of the problem is that these people know how to circumvent tracking and are able to do these things anonymously. 


 


So.  Here's my suggestion.


 


Implement a skill or spell...call it Residual Aura (if a spell) or Forensics (if a skill)...or some such.  Allow this skill or spell to be used on any item or structure in the game and list the last X number of individuals that interacted with that object or structure (say start at 2 including the user and scale up to 10 or so).  Could list more with skill scaling or channeling.  In the case of things like catapults that interact with structures from a distance, and can destroy their target utterly, maybe tag the tile that the destroyed object stood on.  That way, if someone logs in and finds a missing fence tile, they can inspect the wrecked area and determine that a catapult fired by whomever destroyed the fence, etc.


 


This would in no way unbalance gameplay, or remove the necessity for protecting your things, just provide information.  If the individuals are not "breaking the rules" then it still allows the community as a whole to pass on warnings about them, much like would happen in real life.  If they ARE breaking rules, or griefing, then it removes the anonymity and allows aggrieved parties to put a name to the person who set out to ruin their experience.


 


Just a thought.


Edited by DeathHuntsAlone
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There's clear rules on what is a guarded enclosure and what isn't. People could easily lie even with the correct information for instigation or drama. As is always the way, deed it or lose it i'm afraid. Adding unnecessary skills for solving what people could read on the forums as  guideline for protection doesn't compensate for this.


 


Perhaps an addition of the enclosure rule into the broken tutorial would help, but thats a whole nother topic.


 


So sorry, -1 i'm afraid :(


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There is the tracking ability, I think that if someone is griefing to get inside and steal stuff or whatever, or even just bashing, tracking should help. 


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FreeTineen - This isn't an enclosure rules thing.  This is information on who touched what.  No lying when you (or a GM) can call up skill text.  It would deal with theft or general lousy behavior all around.  Someone nicked stuff from your bsb on your perimeter?  At least you would know who did it and could tell your neighbor.  It doesn't make it unnecessary to protect your stuff or deed, just lets you know who was touching your stuff.


 


Arronicus - Part of the problem with tracking, is that it can be obscured and only gives information on who was in that area, not who directly interacted with an item.


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Semi Off-topic,


 


The tracking ability on Freedom is just retarded currently. If I remember correctly, it'll only go as far back as a couple of hours even with higher skill levels. It is also *very* inaccurate.


 


But as for added skills for this kind of thing.. No thank you. Assuming the GMs are able to pull enough log data from the server, they can investigate claims of griefing, etc.

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FreeTineen - This isn't an enclosure rules thing.  This is information on who touched what.  No lying when you (or a GM) can call up skill text.  It would deal with theft or general lousy behavior all around.  Someone nicked stuff from your bsb on your perimeter?  At least you would know who did it and could tell your neighbor.  It doesn't make it unnecessary to protect your stuff or deed, just lets you know who was touching your stuff.

 

Arronicus - Part of the problem with tracking, is that it can be obscured and only gives information on who was in that area, not who directly interacted with an item.

 

 

On your permiter it isn't yours, that's why the saying is deed it or lose it. Not saying its fair behavior but at the same time why add a whole nother skill set which could be misinterpreted towards misdirection and confusion.

 

I've always found the best way of dealing with theft is to help the neighbors, new players you meet. This is a survival game and people at the start can be driven to actions which as they learn they may regret. Education is the best tool not additional bureaucratic measures.

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Tracking in general needs a major overhaul. Skill at higher levels barely even seems to have an impact, and tracking signs vanish too fast given the rate of speed ingame time passes at x8.


 


Something along the lines of Forensics would be nice. Perhaps built into tracking, one a subskill of the other, or seperate skills.


 


EDIT: Not to mention some sort of counter of these skills for Thievery-inclined.


Edited by Klaa
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FreeTineen - True, it's not yours.  But how many of us have been building, or chopping trees or anything, only to find someone has taken everything just because we made a mistake?  This isn't a "let's code thieves out of Wurm" thing.  This is information.  Sure would be nice to know who touched your bsb last so you can warn your neighbors that they took your things.  It's not against the rules, just nasty playing.  Tracking is iffy at best, because it can be obscured. 


 


I agree that helping neighbors is a great defense (and I often do).  But that doesn't help with wandering griefers, deeded halfway across the world, out to screw with people because they're bored.

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FreeTineen - True, it's not yours.  But how many of us have been building, or chopping trees or anything, only to find someone has taken everything just because we made a mistake?  This isn't a "let's code thieves out of Wurm" thing.  This is information.  Sure would be nice to know who touched your bsb last so you can warn your neighbors that they took your things.  It's not against the rules, just nasty playing.  Tracking is iffy at best, because it can be obscured. 

 

I agree that helping neighbors is a great defense (and I often do).  But that doesn't help with wandering griefers, deeded halfway across the world, out to screw with people because they're bored.

 

 

Have to be honest in three years of playing I've never had that happen to me, perhaps I'm fortunate but still GM's can track this information so I guess if a report was necessary for an act of theft it is already recorded. Player intervention is not required.

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add pvp

 

/signed

 

Well as we all know pvp doesn't remove drama but it certainly makes it more fun >:D

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/signed


 


I think if you have thieves (lockpicking, sneaking, etc) you should have more ways to track these thieves in game.  I would like to see some skills other than just tracking for this.  Just like communities may have smiths, woodworkers, leather workers, etc, they might someone on community watch as well who specialized in a forensics type ability.  I don't see any down side to this.  Just my two cents, of course.


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Luckily, there's a place for PvP.  Unfortunately, it's not Freedom. 


 


Do the GMs really have the time or inclination to deal with every theft complaint thrown their way?  This just empowers the community instead of forcing them to resort to pestering the GMs.  In my experience, giving people the tools to be self sufficient is far more successful then telling mom or dad.  Conflict resolution 101.


 


Besides, the GMs will only get involved if there is a clear rules violation.  This is more of a "pass the word, John Doe stole my stuff" kinda thing between members of a community.  Like telling your neighbor that you saw someone rooting through their trash.


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Luckily, there's a place for PvP.  Unfortunately, it's not Freedom. 

 

Do the GMs really have the time or inclination to deal with every theft complaint thrown their way?  This just empowers the community instead of forcing them to resort to pestering the GMs.  In my experience, giving people the tools to be self sufficient is far more successful then telling mom or dad.  Conflict resolution 101.

 

Besides, the GMs will only get involved if there is a clear rules violation.  This is more of a "pass the word, John Doe stole my stuff" kinda thing between members of a community.  Like telling your neighbor that you saw someone rooting through their trash.

 

And this is why it shouldn't be added, rumors and conjecture do not equate to better gameplay. Who's to say the griefers' were the ones stolen from, and its far easier to spread rumors of theft then to willingly cause it.

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Lol...okay.  :D

 

 

Sorry to disagree, please don't take it as me wanting to have an argument on the forums far from it. :)

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This just opens a pandoras' box for slander and mud slinging, I can't see it benefiting anything other than being able to spread rumours and cast accusations, which would then lead to taking action against each other


 


The GM's are there for enforce the rules and keep the peace, we aren't vigilantes


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Tracking in general needs a major overhaul. Skill at higher levels barely even seems to have an impact, and tracking signs vanish too fast given the rate of speed ingame time passes at x8.

Something along the lines of Forensics would be nice. Perhaps built into tracking, one a subskill of the other, or seperate skills.

EDIT: Not to mention some sort of counter of these skills for Thievery-inclined.

This. So much this...

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Archaed - This is happening now.  There is nothing preventing anyone from saying anything about anyone else.  Nor is there anything preventing people who actively grief from getting away with it.  Tracking is nearly useless.  And as far as being vigilantes, what kind of reprisals are we talking about?  What recourse does someone have (without, themselves, being in violation of the CoC or the rules) other than telling the GMs?  This would just give people the ability to access data to enable them to put a name to an action.


 


It is information, nothing more.  It removes the anonymity of actions that are encouraging antisocial behavior.  The first thing they teach you in loss prevention is that the majority of thefts are perpetrated by people that are normally law abiding citizens, but only steal because they think they can get away with it.  Well,  this would serve the same purpose as surveillance cameras in the real world.  Just give one more option to help people protect their investment.  We're talking about people paying actual money here, after all.


 


I find the whole notion that this would increase slander and such ridiculous.  There's nothing you could do with the information other than say "hey, Joe touched my stuff".  Either he did, or he didn't, and he knows if he did or he didn't.  Nothing to stop you from saying that now, except, with my suggestion, there would be proof.


Edited by DeathHuntsAlone

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OK First off, i do agree with the overall sentiment of the original post. Just doesn't need to be so elaborate as a new skill, just make tracking more efficient, allow to check for older tracks, and change it to be more like foraging, when at lvl 20+ allow to search for human, animal and monster tracks, or something. And for PvP create skill checks of tracking vs stealth to track players that roam around stealthed (which would erase their tracks) So if your tracking + RNG is higher than the other person's Body Control (or thievery skill) + RNG then you can see their tracks, otherwise you won't. (On PVE stealth shouldn't obscure tracks since thievery is disallowed in general).


 


 




Luckily, there's a place for PvP.  Unfortunately, it's not Freedom. 


 


Do the GMs really have the time or inclination to deal with every theft complaint thrown their way?  This just empowers the community instead of forcing them to resort to pestering the GMs.  In my experience, giving people the tools to be self sufficient is far more successful then telling mom or dad.  Conflict resolution 101.


 


Besides, the GMs will only get involved if there is a clear rules violation.  This is more of a "pass the word, John Doe stole my stuff" kinda thing between members of a community.  Like telling your neighbor that you saw someone rooting through their trash.




Now about the pass the word thing. That's kinda dangerous thing to rely on. i've seen people kosing others based on a single line of kchat. Also remember that just because you find a person's tracks, or whatnot doesn't mean it was that person that bashed your fence. Trolls will destroy fences at random, so many of those "griefing" events might not even have been players. Even the stolen stuff might have been without malice.


When a troll bashes a fence it also damages the adjacent ones (in my experience, unlike catapults which damage all fences in a tile, a troll will damage a central fence/wall, and then the two adjacent ones), so a player coming up with a troll bashed enclosure will see a downed fence and a few showing heavy damage at least, so might conclude that its an abandoned enclosure that has already started decaying away, and do the wurmian thing, and raid the crap out ot the enclosure.


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OK First off, i do agree with the overall sentiment of the original post. Just doesn't need to be so elaborate as a new skill, just make tracking more efficient, allow to check for older tracks, and change it to be more like foraging, when at lvl 20+ allow to search for human, animal and monster tracks, or something. And for PvP create skill checks of tracking vs stealth to track players that roam around stealthed (which would erase their tracks) So if your tracking + RNG is higher than the other person's Body Control (or thievery skill) + RNG then you can see their tracks, otherwise you won't. (On PVE stealth shouldn't obscure tracks since thievery is disallowed in general).

 

 

Now about the pass the word thing. That's kinda dangerous thing to rely on. i've seen people kosing others based on a single line of kchat. Also remember that just because you find a person's tracks, or whatnot doesn't mean it was that person that bashed your fence. Trolls will destroy fences at random, so many of those "griefing" events might not even have been players. Even the stolen stuff might have been without malice.

When a troll bashes a fence it also damages the adjacent ones (in my experience, unlike catapults which damage all fences in a tile, a troll will damage a central fence/wall, and then the two adjacent ones), so a player coming up with a troll bashed enclosure will see a downed fence and a few showing heavy damage at least, so might conclude that its an abandoned enclosure that has already started decaying away, and do the wurmian thing, and raid the crap out ot the enclosure.

 

 

Well put, perhaps tracking does need re-modeling but still preferably i'd let GM's handle it they have access to information and can deal with cases as they turn about and indeed a number of bashing incidents is down to trolls.

 

Let's not add drama to Wurm aye :)

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The tracking skill is broken. Adding more skills will not fix this issue as to balance PvP, they'd need to add the counter-skills. Even though it sounds like you play on Freedom like I do, it's best to think of this game being ported from PvP over to PvE. Not the other way around.


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