Excessive Home Server Griefing Rule

[Radni 1089]

Make griefer-alts a bannable offence on ALL home servers, BLH, JKH, MRH.

 

The issue atm is, one kingdom griefs another kingdoms home server with f2p alts, which leads the other kingdom to grief the other with alts, simply creating griefing situations that are harmful to the game, and to any noobs who end up starting the game during one of these periods of alt griefing.

 

Regardless of kingdom, HotS, JK, MR, it should not be okay to make alts on another kingdoms home server for the sole purpose of griefing. People complain about there being no pvp, so instead of making griefer alts, to create more pvp, people should be building the fences over canals, and destroying the pavement et cetera on their other kingdom main-accounts. Grief Vrs Grief is NOT pvp that this game needs.

 

What would be considered "Excessive Griefing"?

Destroying lots of pavement around the starter-deed/building walls around starterdeeds or others deed for no purpose other than to grief, and other obvious griefing behaviour. Digging holes to grief places, etc etc.

 

Now, say ol' jimmy from the woods and his neighbor got in an altercation, and ol' jimmy wanted to screw his neighbor over.. well, let's say ol' jimmy started to build fences around his neighbor, and around his harbor... etc.. but ol'jimmy isn't an alt of another kingdom, and a die-hard jenn-kelloner.. well, his neighbor he's trying to screw over is a die-hard jenn-kelloner aswell! Well, this would pose a problem to the suggestion, but aslong as it's just neighbor vrs neighbor pvp i think the gms should not get involved aslong as it doesnt get out of hand.. But alot of this ruling would rely on GM's having the common sense to see the difference from noobs griefing start-deeds for griefing purposes only, and not just banning neighborly altercations.

 

Feedback: what else could be considered griefing? +1/-1? Keep this thread clean, and not full of kingdom vrs kingdom hate.

[shankiest 1238]

There are way to many things they would need fix vs a booting/kos system can solve imo.

EDIT:plus gms will never be able fully understand situations and more likely favor one side than the other.

Edited February 13, 2014 by shankiest

[Radni 1089]

There are way to many things they would need fix vs a booting/kos system can solve imo.

EDIT:plus gms will never be able fully understand situations and more likely favor one side than the other.

Well, any ideas what would be better to do then?

[DonAngelo 263]

Agreed

I believe that "no rules" system doesnt work so well on pvp server in cases when its simple and obvious griefing, abusing f2p alts. Even if its "free pvp" world, there must be Some rules controlling simple morale, behavior of whats acceptable and not. Its bit to much of freedom atm.

[Protunia 735]

Been going on since day 1 of Epic.....

[Seara 687]

There's a big issue here - how do we identify who is an alt and who is not.  Yes, some are currently known, but if we did crack down, they would take steps to prevent any evidence of being an alt.

 

Talking actions on alts would simply drive them underground - we need a better answer than that.

[Radni 1089]

Been going on since day 1 of Epic.....

Let's hope it wont be going on on the last day of epic..

[DonAngelo 263]

At least getting rid of well known griefer alts is a small step towards Attempting to improve general community.

If you cant Cure Cancer, it doesnt mean you shouldnt Fight it.

[Suntzu 644]

It is a pvping server, what you describe is not the definition of griefing. Getting gms involved in pvp is a horrible idea.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Suntzu

[Protunia 735]

You are not on Freedom therefore your rules are this..

 

Epic and Chaos Servers Griefing 
Definition:
Griefing on Epic and Chaos is very simple, no defamation of character (insulting their race, gender, creed, nationality or sexuality).

[Klaa 4871]

What some may call griefing on a pvp server is standard tactics to others. Even the home servers are still pvp, raiders are just nerfed in CR and they cant place beachheads under their own kingdoms.

On the other hand, using alt-kingdom f2p chars to get around ingame retaliation and mechanics is rather douchie. For example only the BL are intended to be able to be a free for all amongst themselves.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Klaa

[shankiest 1238]

Well, any ideas what would be better to do then?

a booting/kos system can solve imo.

[shankiest 1238]

You are not on Freedom therefore your rules are this..

 

Epic and Chaos Servers Griefing 

Definition:

Griefing on Epic and Chaos is very simple, no defamation of character (insulting their race, gender, creed, nationality or sexuality).

you didn't read the update did you? metagaming can lead to griefing under situations

[Klaa 4871]

you didn't read the update did you? metagaming can lead to griefing under situations

A fairly recent change made due to a very drastic situation.

For example, a JK player creating a hots alt for the evidenced purpose of harassing other JK players, typically in a tag team fashion with the JK char. Obviously this was used to get around ingame limitations placed on JK vs JK actions.

**Not An Official Wurm Staff Opinion**

Whether or not this applies to say, a HotS using a JK alt to harass JKs remains to be seen. Let alone saying such a case is even being considered. In the past such was usually dismissed as regular gameplay, especially if the "alt" was premium.

Wilds/Chaos, as an example, was for a time prem only. "No such thing as premium alts" Granted I am unsure that would work well on even pvp Home servers.

Personally, Epic should be prem only. F2p alts are just more trouble than they are worth in allowing basic accounts and encouraging new players. At least until someone comes up with a practical means of weeding out "alts" from legitimate players.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Klaa

[shankiest 1238]

Please stop saying alt it makes the mentality that they are lesser value of an account and why most people get in trouble when they don't defend their other prem accounts for something they are allowed to do. One reasons why some the better griefers are never dinged they know the rules and loops and then backfire it to the gms when questioned. AKA like i said rules would need be fixed or easy option kos/booting of kingdom.

EDIT:i noticed it seems targeted to you. Meant for almost everyone but your post some reason triggered the alt rant.

Edited February 13, 2014 by shankiest

[Kagrenac 812]

Really the issue with bl alts is that people go "bl are supposed to fight", so obviously having a bl alt and walking off/breaking into peoples mines, killing new bl players, etc. is allowed right?

Even being on your jk main and attempting to bait people with the alt is apparently ok.

[DonAngelo 263]

I still fail to understand how pvp server should be "no rules, no morale, no nothing".

Any adult, mature person should see how poorly executed such concept is in general, as such behavior cant be considered to be "healthy" for Any game community, and allowing, Accepting such, is obvious case of poor judgement. There can be no reasoning in such topic against common sense and morale.

Anyone trying to argue about such means being Acceptable only points how poor they morale is and shows how Rotten is general mentality within PvP population.

 

Then again, trying to argue about Moral behavior in a Game is silly in the first place..

[Klaa 4871]

I still fail to understand how pvp server should be "no rules, no morale, no nothing".

Any adult, mature person should see how poorly executed such concept is in general, as such behavior cant be considered to be "healthy" for Any game community, and allowing, Accepting such, is obvious case of poor judgement. There can be no reasoning in such topic against common sense and morale.

Anyone trying to argue about such means being Acceptable only points how poor they morale is and shows how Rotten is general mentality within PvP population.

 

Then again, trying to argue about Moral behavior in a Game is silly in the first place..

Believe it or not but thats pretty much how it worked out for years on the Wild server(s). For the most part the defamation rule was the only anti-griefing enforced, and players generally complied. Granted the taunting back and forth could cross the defamation lines into a crackdown.

EDIT: Except for local though... sheesh Baldeagle could make a sailor cough. Heh actually made it easier to be an ass as far as destruction went.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Klaa

[Fireflyb 920]

IMO, any repetitive action against your own kingdom (aka a BL attacking BLers or griefing BL roads/deeds/mines repeatedly; replace "BL" with JK, MR, whatever you want) should be a ban-able offense. While the idea of spying/double agenting or whatever is attractive, it simply isn't worth the amount of F2P alt griefing that would result from making that sort of thing permissible, and it really doesn't seem like this kind of thing would add much to Wurm Online. It might add to the roleplaying aspect of larger games like Eve (for example), but it seems to simply degrade the overall Wurm experience (speaking from what I've seen on forums and experienced myself.)

Obviously, this makes it tough because of the pure fact that these are PvP servers, where if problems aren't solved by talk, they are solved by combat... and a few players attacking another few players who are the same kingdom would be "same-kingdom griefing"; obviously the rep system has never and will never be a good decider for "who is to blame" because it is a set of observable mechanics that people can find loopholes in to justify themselves as legitimate in the code, but griefers in the eyes of everyone else.

It's just a paradox; either the reputation system is lifted and griefers/noblewhiteknights get free reign and kill/loot who they want, or people have to jump through hoops to grief/prevent griefing with the reputation system operating as usual, and /support anyone who decides dropping dirt on a canal is a great community activity.

Tbh, if this is happening to BLH/E and their lack of a reputation system, that seems like a hint that the "/support anyone who's repetitively intentionally destroying same-kingdom roads/deeds/etc. and/or killing same-kingdom players repeatedly" system will work better than the no-reputation system, but I've lived on JKH for most of the time I've played Epic so I don't know...

Edited February 14, 2014 by Fireflyb

[Postes 5286]

I don't get why things like this get so complex, it's like making mountains out of molehills.  Everyone knows who is griefing, and abusing alts.  Sure the game doesn't classify "alts" or "griefing" but that doesn't meant it doesn't exist, and doesn't ruin the game experience for others.  Truth is once you set an example out of someone I bet you anything the rest will stop.  You think anyone is daring to try client hacks after that large ban?  Probably not many, a few dumb ones, sure.  

 

Yeah, sometimes you go to war with your own kingdom, sometimes you kill your own people, sometimes its justified.  You can't however ever fully prevent people from griefing with game mechanics, there's just no way.  The only way you can identify people abusing, metagaming, griefing, and most of all - intentionally disrupting and ruining the game experience for other players in a malicious manner with a free-to-play character.  Report it.  Have GMs investigate the player's IP and links to other accounts.

 

If it's an obvious alternative account with no set goal or intent to play amongst the kingdom - warn them.  

 

If they continue, 3 day IP ban, ban any linked accounts to the IP - even bicycles.  

 

If they continue still, 30 day IP and account bans.

 

 

 

 

You don't have to act like the FBI, no offense to the Code Club SE staff team, but holy ######.  Some guy on a f2p alt running around Strongbox dropping dirt, walling off canals, walling off merchants, and has a main account in another kingdom -- this is just a griefer who brings nothing worthwhile to your game, and hurts it.  

[Postes 5286]

That's all you can really do right now, in my opinion, but truth is when the game gets large-scale you won't be able to monitor such a large audience.  So you better start looking at long-term solutions and mechanics if you expect the game to get larger.  

[MrGARY 12422]

Biggest problem is punishing the players that try to kill grief alts, and leaving them unable to loot their tools they can just regrab to go back to griefing.

 

Remove the hunted/reputation nonsense from pvp.  If someone goes rogue and starts killing same kingdom, well have fun, any one of the other 100 people online can go be a hero without being punished.

[Bix 453]

I don't get why things like this get so complex, it's like making mountains out of molehills.  Everyone knows who is griefing, and abusing alts.  Sure the game doesn't classify "alts" or "griefing" but that doesn't meant it doesn't exist, and doesn't ruin the game experience for others.  Truth is once you set an example out of someone I bet you anything the rest will stop.  You think anyone is daring to try client hacks after that large ban?  Probably not many, a few dumb ones, sure.  

 

Yeah, sometimes you go to war with your own kingdom, sometimes you kill your own people, sometimes its justified.  You can't however ever fully prevent people from griefing with game mechanics, there's just no way.  The only way you can identify people abusing, metagaming, griefing, and most of all - intentionally disrupting and ruining the game experience for other players in a malicious manner with a free-to-play character.  Report it.  Have GMs investigate the player's IP and links to other accounts.

 

If it's an obvious alternative account with no set goal or intent to play amongst the kingdom - warn them.  

 

If they continue, 3 day IP ban, ban any linked accounts to the IP - even bicycles.  

 

If they continue still, 30 day IP and account bans.

 

 

 

 

You don't have to act like the FBI, no offense to the Code Club SE staff team, but holy ######.  Some guy on a f2p alt running around Strongbox dropping dirt, walling off canals, walling off merchants, and has a main account in another kingdom -- this is just a griefer who brings nothing worthwhile to your game, and hurts it.  

 

 

I do recall reading on that log viewer thing that someone mentioned one of the alts were prem so by this suggestion you've given it would exclude that alt from any repercussion simply because it's prem and acting within the mechanics of the WL kingdom.

 

Of course, something has to be done about this whole problem and it looks like it's being looked into by the GMs.

[Kagrenac 812]

Yeah, sometimes you go to war with your own kingdom, sometimes you kill your own people, sometimes its justified.  You can't however ever fully prevent people from griefing with game mechanics, there's just no way.  The only way you can identify people abusing, metagaming, griefing, and most of all - intentionally disrupting and ruining the game experience for other players in a malicious manner with a free-to-play character.  Report it.  Have GMs investigate the player's IP and links to other accounts.

 

If it's an obvious alternative account with no set goal or intent to play amongst the kingdom - warn them.  

 

If they continue, 3 day IP ban, ban any linked accounts to the IP - even bicycles.  

 

If they continue still, 30 day IP and account bans.

So dreanor should have been warned/banned right?

Or is it only bad if its not a bl char/non-prem

[Postes 5286]

You're right, Bix, griefing can occur also on a premium character no doubt, but it's easier to identify abuse with a f2p alt that's total purpose is merely to grief.  There is a lot of thin lines though when it comes to a premium accounts however because they're paying customers sadly with more entitlements, and in a sandbox game can't 100% be dictated to play a certain way.  I think (I don't know this 100%) but you don't have the equal rights as free-to-play as you do a premium player.  

 

I'm not saying because they are premium they can abuse and that's alright, I just meant it will least be very easy to identify f2p grief alts.