About the Traders

[Depends 220]

"We should get rid of traders because it's not fair that I don't get to have as much stuff."

vs

"We can't get rid of traders because then I wouldn't be able to afford to have as much stuff."

Leave the traders, get rid of all the players.

[Druidnature 1,118]

"We should get rid of traders because it's not fair that I don't get to have as much stuff."

vs

"We can't get rid of traders because then I wouldn't be able to afford to have as much stuff."

Leave the traders, get rid of all the players.

 

Please point out 1, just 1, person saying they can't afford as much stuff?

 

Good luck.

[Depends 220]

Please point out 1, just 1, person saying they can't afford as much stuff?

Good luck.

Well, since you decided to take my totally serious get rid of all the players post so seriously...

If it wasn't for traders I would be long gone because this game, after a few years of playing is not fun without having at least 2-4 accounts and multiple deeds.

[Hussars 511]

Gah, won't let me edit last post....

 

Anyhow, Many things.  Lets stay in-game though first: Sleep powder, Rod of transmutation, The chest. they all give one player more power over the other, also you could say the same for large deeds.

 

You can buy silver from the store, to then buy the best items from other players.

 

That is"pay2win" but lets go a bit further, shall we?

 

I can be the prime example here, I started a character, decided wurm was really fun, but to slow. I needed a way to "catch up" to the people that spent years already on wurm. so I learned you could buy a character, So I bought DM, instantly caught up to most of the people that were, just a few days ago when I was thinking how to catch up, years ahead of me. then I did the same 3 more times.....>_<

 

You can also, of course, buy gold through other players, and sometimes even armour/weapons/tools when people offer a exchange rate.

 

Now, I know that's not all pay to win in some peoples eyes, it of course depends what the person refers to by it. but overall, imo, you can very easily "pay to win" in wurm. (though what you really winning who knows, except maybe being able to control the market if you really, really wanted to......not my thing. I'm in it to have fun)

Issue is, what you define as "Pay2Win" isn't a common usage (at least not yet I hope).

 

Normally "Pay2Win" refers to a "best possible advantage" that is ONLY available via Real Money Transactions (RMT) by game design.  For an example, a game that sells premium ammo that never misses and/or 1-shot kills the target, and is only able to be acquired by RMT purchase from the developers.  Every item listed is available by way of in-game resources (silver coins) that anyone can earn at a variable rate OR by way of RMT (via Bank of Rolfâ„¢ or other players).

 

Now before anyone points out dragon armors, the owner's of those sets choose to sell outside of the game, the game does not make them available by only use of RMT.

 

Yes, RMT in Wurm provides an advantage in reducing time to acquire a specific item, premium time, or deed size by RMT purchase of silver.  However RMT in Wurm (by design) does not offer items that can only be purchased for real money.

 

Saying the current system is Pay2Win is the same as saying since the only person selling some limited item refuses to sell to you for any reason but sells to someone else for the same or more coin that you were offering is also pay2win.

 

Because for whatever reason, they were able to acquire the item you could not, by a way that was available to them (seller liked them) and not you (seller didn't like you).

 

As FYI, if you think I'm in support of the current Trader element as-is.. take a look at my post history, but I'll stand by my statement that however broken or "creatively used" it might be, it is not Pay2Win.

[meiyeeer 78]

Issue is, what you define as "Pay2Win" isn't a common usage (at least not yet I hope).

 

Normally "Pay2Win" refers to a "best possible advantage" that is ONLY available via Real Money Transactions (RMT) by game design.  For an example, a game that sells premium ammo that never misses and/or 1-shot kills the target, and is only able to be acquired by RMT purchase from the developers.  Every item listed is available by way of in-game resources (silver coins) that anyone can earn at a variable rate OR by way of RMT (via Bank of Rolfâ„¢ or other players).

 

Now before anyone points out dragon armors, the owner's of those sets choose to sell outside of the game, the game does not make them available by only use of RMT.

 

Yes, RMT in Wurm provides an advantage in reducing time to acquire a specific item, premium time, or deed size by RMT purchase of silver.  However RMT in Wurm (by design) does not offer items that can only be purchased for real money.

 

Saying the current system is Pay2Win is the same as saying since the only person selling some limited item refuses to sell to you for any reason but sells to someone else for the same or more coin that you were offering is also pay2win.

 

Because for whatever reason, they were able to acquire the item you could not, by a way that was available to them (seller liked them) and not you (seller didn't like you).

 

As FYI, if you think I'm in support of the current Trader element as-is.. take a look at my post history, but I'll stand by my statement that however broken or "creatively used" it might be, it is not Pay2Win.

 

I don't think either of us were saying traders were pay2win, but rather that the removal of them would be more pay2win (in my case) or that the game is already pay2win (in his case). Just a clarification.

[Corwii 3]

Point of this topic was to point out the flaws of traders, not about me not having the money to buy one so I'm complaining. Its not about that at all, we choose not to have one simply because we don't need it, we can afford to play, afford our upkeep, afford our premium without the help of a trader. I didn't set up the rule question so I can go milk everyones traders, I never do that, there's no point in my eyes, as I stated we can afford our stuff and gameplay. I'm simply pointing out that this system seems to have some flaws that half say is wrong, and half say its ok. Rolf is losing money in this sense of people accumulating these free silvers for upkeep, premium, or to sell for real money (Which in my eyes is a huge exploit) as this is as if people are cutting out Rolf's shop, and selling silvers that costed them not a single dime, pound, or euro, making a full profit which should be looked into. As I expected no one to agree on booting the traders all together, I was just leaving it open as an option. But I do believe there should be a rule that they must be left out in the open. This is a way for the Wurm economy to keep going but its not doing that if people are just locking up traders and milking that silver for themselves to sell for real cash or pay for premium or upkeep that was originally designed to be paid for with real money that bought silver through the shop, thus giving Rolf his cut of the money. But with these traders and how they are being treated, Rolf is being cut out (Other wise known as the middleman in this sense) as if Rolf has allowed competitors in his game to sell his silver system as they please. Again, I'm premium, not an alt, I choose not to have a trader for this reason, its not worth it to me in my eyes and its an exploit in my opinion, not because I can't buy one. And I feel its unfair only because people can pay for multiple deeds that will never disband because they will always have that money to pay for it, people founding 5x5 trader deeds wasting up the land and sometimes boxing in your own deed only for the purpose of milking these silvers and not actually that they want that land to do anything with there. Pointless land in other words, land a new player could have instead. It's not that I want to axe the traders, but instead I gave reasonable ideas to help keep it fair. Either change it to generate silver every 2 or 3 months instead, giving Rolf a chance to make some money on some silver that people would have to "Oh my god, actually have to buy" but still allowing people to make some silver back on their traders. Or make it a rule that they must be in the open, a fair chance to actually cycle this money as people claim it does but doesn't. Not because I want to milk them, cause I never do, no need to, but for them to actually be used for what they was designed for. Please stay on topic here and give me your opinions instead of cheap shotting me as a person. No need to act like that over an open opinion/debate, seriously :/.

[Shiraek 464]

I run a public trader and a private one.

 

The first one and the deed it sits on was paid for entirely with real world money. The second trader had some real world money component.

 

The public trader took several years to pay for itself with tax, and it's mostly serviced by drainer alts, who mostly break the ratio (even with signs right next to it explaining ratios). Think about that for a bit. I don't blame _anyone_ for locking their trader up.

 

However, the locked up trader giving you money is clearly broken as hell. I voted no, no and yes. However, I recognise how unlikely a change is, there would be tantrums like never before and the tantrumers would have a point.

 

That said, some changes could be made which encouraged open traders:

1. Deed forms and other kingdom items pay tax and hard set the ratio high when they are bought.
   

And here's how to fix it properly as well that nobody will support:

1. Non premium accounts cannot affect ratios, and pay extra tax with each sale (to the king)
   
2. Premium accounts can only positively affect ratios once per month, and there is a cap on how much a single transaction can affect the ratio
   

 

[snowblind 38]

i think trader's are fine they way they are now , let's hope they stay that way.

[Tikki 65]

so how about them dragons when are they going to fix them?  heh

 ya when are the dragon's gonna get fixed and respawn i have never had any drake =( i want some to , ya know ..

[Shrimpiie 3,665]

You can buy a Drake set, they start at 1g.

[Druidnature 1,118]

Well, since you decided to take my totally serious get rid of all the players post so seriously...

 

 

I didn't, Also I thought you meant whining they couldn't afford a trader. xD

 

Also, I was just saying you can technically pay to win, it's very possible, but as I also said......there's really no "use" for doing so.

[Rathgar 959]

I didn't, Also I thought you meant whining they couldn't afford a trader. xD

 

Also, I was just saying you can technically pay to win, it's very possible, but as I also said......there's really no "use" for doing so.

 

You are using the term "pay2win" incorrectly, that is what it was being pointed out, I can call a dog a "tree", and I can call a tree a "car", but I wouldnt be using the words correctly, thus promoting misinformation.

 

Now you use a (in this context) derogative adjective: "Pay to win", but the term is being used incorrectly,  if there were swords for sale in the shop, that outclassed any weapon that a player could manufacture, then yes, that would be pay to win.    A Rod of Transmutation is NOT pay to win, because in the end its sole purpose is to create a mineral vein, that you can find in the nature, even as a non-premium character.

 

I just wanted to leave that clear.   A Trader is also NOT pay to win, since free traders are available at the starter towns, so the mechanics at least are given for anyone to partake in their usage. (I know they are being camped)

 

EDIT: The pay to win features, one could argue that are being a premium player, and owning a deed, and even those can be purchased outside of a web-shop, or traded in-game.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Rathgar

[MattSquare 426]

I am a part of a large and active village on Serenity. Even though we have crafters that can create almost anything in the game with relative ease, almost every newbie who wanders in and decides he wants to be a priest then goes to the wiki, as directed by us. At that point, he says, "Fo priests can't mine???? Screw that! I'm not going to priest!" or "Priests can't improve? I'm not doing that!" Even though we can provide the players with anything they need, they want to do things themselves. Priests are very limited. Over half the game is restricted from priests, so a lot of players do not play their mains as priests. The ones that do usually have crafting alts. They also can't or won't pay for a second account to priest on. In addition, priests are necessary for PvP for both enchants and healing/offensive spells. So telling someone to cooperate with others isn't exactly a solution. I can't tell the newbies in my village that they have to priest.

[Kagrenac 812]

Newbies != all players.

People cooperate with others as just fine, you just seem to have a problem with it.

[Anders 30]

Corwii, if you think this topic will be staying on "your" topic, you're quite mistaken. If you mention anything about traders in this game in a thread, this is what's going to happen: a big debate about traders, period.

 

As far as what you seem to want this topic to be about, we are long past the point of traders having to be open to the public as too much money has been invested in them.

[Redd 4,281]

No to everything.

[atazs 962]

The games already pay to win. With or without a trader.

But I do agree, it would possibly make a bit more of a gap (though there are plenty of other ways you could make money at low levels) the most relaxed is using a trader

Define pay to win if you can't actually win this game. 

[rosedragon 2,282]

My end thought is just leave as is.  now that tokens can give coins to anyone too a small fix toward fairness,  just grab the shovel and bury the dead horse, after butchering of course, we need the bits for healing covers ;-)

 

I disagree! Butcher the horse then sell the corpse and the bits to token.

[validate 598]

I disagree! Butcher the horse then sell the corpse and the bits to token.

Lol. Ya that's a better idea

[Johnston2 38]

if my traders get taken out of the game then 40 silver better replace each of them you poor, jealous, traderless plebe.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Johnston2

[KanePT 699]

There's always some guy that can't get his ass of the couch and blame people that do something to get away from the slump.

If you want a trader you can just buy one. Can't afford to spit out the 50€ or so it costs? Work for it ingame. I did. Bought mine from bulk works i did, now i can afford to have other people in my deed, help them buy premium and even have some set aside for a rainy day.

[Corwii 3]

When I say stay on topic, I mean talk about the traders, not noobs becoming priests :/ what's the point of a topic if everyone talks about everything else but the topic. And as I stated plenty of countless times. We choose not to have one, because its simply not needed to afford our deed or premium. We can afford to play, therefore a trader isn't needed. Just a simple topic about this to get others views and opinions but you all haven't done anything but talk down to me saying I'm just complaining, when this is just a simple opinion/debate about them to see what you guys think. And none of you are staying on topic, which there isn't any point to have this open anymore . All I get is jerked around for just simply voicing an opinion. So on that note, I apologize for even opening this thread, and I apologize for having an opinion. But having an opinion doesn't give everyone a right to talk about me in these manors. If you all can't be adults, then please, someone close this thread as no one seems to want to speak nicely like I have. This is just ridiculous, and I won't have another opinion don't you all worry about that ok? Now please someone close this, tired of all these attacks against me instead of my topic. If you can't stay on topic and not attack me, then why even have this open . Please, close this, or show me how to do it myself...

[rosedragon 2,282]

When I say stay on topic, I mean talk about the traders, not noobs becoming priests :/ what's the point of a topic if everyone talks about everything else but the topic. And as I stated plenty of countless times. We choose not to have one, because its simply not needed to afford our deed or premium. We can afford to play, therefore a trader isn't needed. Just a simple topic about this to get others views and opinions but you all haven't done anything but talk down to me saying I'm just complaining, when this is just a simple opinion/debate about them to see what you guys think. And none of you are staying on topic, which there isn't any point to have this open anymore . All I get is jerked around for just simply voicing an opinion. So on that note, I apologize for even opening this thread, and I apologize for having an opinion. But having an opinion doesn't give everyone a right to talk about me in these manors. If you all can't be adults, then please, someone close this thread as no one seems to want to speak nicely like I have. This is just ridiculous, and I won't have another opinion don't you all worry about that ok? Now please someone close this, tired of all these attacks against me instead of my topic. If you can't stay on topic and not attack me, then why even have this open . Please, close this, or show me how to do it myself...

They are not out of topic. Basically it was an argument about the need of traders to suffice way of 'wurm living'. Whenever it is deed fund, more characters, or to buy stuffs. I don't think anyone attacks you as a person, instead questioning of your comments.. but that is the nature, especially when you open a can of worm with extreme proposals. And if you don't stop exaggerating with 'no one stay on topic', you will find more questionings.

 

ps: I have hard time to read your post because it is one big paragraph.

Edited February 12, 2014 by rosedragon

[Shrimpiie 3,665]

Closed as per OP's request.