About the Traders

[Corwii 3]

So I logged onto Wurm this morning and found a very interesting chat in GL-Freedom going on. It was a big debate on the traders. The deal is, people are claiming they use traders to pay for their deeds and such. What they claim to do is lock them up somewhere to where only they have access to, so they can reap the monthly silver traders get for free so they can pay for deeds or whatnot's. And as always, you always have one side with one opinion, and the other side with their opinion. And I'm here tonight to voice mine as there seemed to be a few people on my side. You see, the problem I see with this system, is it's a major exploit in Wurm's system that seems to just be overlooked too much and not so cared about it seems. So basically my problem is this, people founding multiple deeds, and using these traders with their monthly silvers to pay for them, basically getting them for free and Wurm not making a single dime. Could also be looked into a way to have almost free premium in this sense.

We have a deed really close by us. The only thing this deed has on it, is a 4 tile tar pit, and a single building with only 4 doors on each side and no windows. No fences around, no guards, just this tar pit and building. Keep in mind the deed is only a basic 5x5 I believe. So we got curious, as people claimed to be using traders to pay for their deeds for free, we found a way to look inside this building. There is no roof on it, so we dumped enough dirt on the side somewhere slightly off the deed so we could peek inside and see if our suspicions were correct and it seems that saying "Always follow your gut feeling" is true. We peeked over and guess what we found? Ah yes, just a trader inside. We have ideas on who owns it as this person seems to own most of the west coast with deeds that aren't doing all that much, mostly flat land with nothing built on it. And the way he or she seems to be paying for them all is with these locked up traders and their free monthly silvers.

People admitted in GL-Freedom that if they ever did away with traders, they would have to disband some of their multiple deeds. To me, in my opinion, seems to be a major exploit. Yes I understand, you pay 50 silver for these traders, but that also means just because you can afford 50 silver, means you will get free silver every month to practically pay for your premium or deed for free? To me this seems like Wurm isn't making any money this way, as the silvers are in their owners pockets without having to pay real money to get, meaning Wurm lost money, then also paying for either their premium or deed, basically getting them for free. To me this is all wrong, as most of us are legit players, that actually pay our real money for what we do or use in Wurm. And feel that this gives some players an unfair advantage, as these players can afford to found 5 or 10 deeds, taking up all the land around you and leaving no room for new players.

This seems to be a problem that really needs to be looked into. Perhaps changing the traders to only get these free silvers every 2 or 3 months, rather than every month. Or just simply make it a rule, that all traders must be reachable for all players, and are not allowed to be locked up and hidden. As one has stated in game, traders weren't meant to be locked away unreachable to other players, and this is a major exploit. I know many of you out there will be against everything I say, but look at it like this for a change instead of all this "Well they payed for it" "Well there's no rule". Well nothing really, cause all in all, its an exploit in my eyes. So this is my question to all Wurmians. Should traders be changed so they regenerate silver every 2 to 3 or more months rather than every month? Or should traders just be booted out of the game, and we all use Merchants instead? Or a third idea, is make a rule that states all traders must be accessible to all players and may NOT be hidden or locked in a building. What do you guys think?

[Archaed 2326]

It has been stated time and time again that traders are not being used as they were intended, and that the system will be changed.

This is just flogging a dead horse, if traders did not pay out silver people would not purchase them, they wouldnt be locked up, they simply wouldn't exist.

There needs to be a manner in which silver returns to the economy, this is what keeps it stable, silver that goes to the king in one month comes back via traders, how else would it wind up back in the economy?

Sure, some trader deeds take up viable land, but most are out in the wilderness due to the 50 tile rule.

You also forget that they require 50s. Which is usually bought from the shop, and take upwards of six to eight months to return that initial investment.

I agree with changing the way traders work, I dont however see it as an exploit or unfair, people who have played for longer and can make high ql tools and enchants earn far more per month than a trader does

[Anders 30]

This is a long standing debate and your post is basically beating a dead horse to be honest.

 

To me,  it's a situation where it's really hard to mess with it as it stands. While an exploit is using a game mechanic as not intended and locking up trader may "not be as initially intended", it's a significant chunk of income as almost no one would likely buy a trader otherwise and we'd have the same player base with a lot less deeds.

 

With the rise in prices last year, there are many spots available now to deed. If you cannot find a spot you're simply not looking hard enough. Land is not an issue.

[Caroligan 116]

Let's not forget also that many players have alt's that they camp next to traders and drain as much silver as they can on a daily basis. All you would be doing is allowing more of this other behavior to become more common.

[Shrimpiie 3665]

Yet another thread on this...

The issue has been debated to the ends of the Earth, nothing new and constructive can possibly come from bringing it up yet again.

[Protunia 735]

And the worst part..a lot of the Trader funds comes from...The people who don't have Traders Deed's upkeep... Just thought I would toss that in there.

 

Pay out should definitely be based on Deed size and Upkeep for sure.

 

A 5x5 should not be getting the same funds as a 90x90 because a 5x5 pays less upkeep to those funds.

 

Maybe reduce Payouts and Reduce Upkeep for all players deeds??

 

Anyhow we can go on for days about this.....It's being looked at, but I bet with kid gloves too....

 

Edited February 11, 2014 by Protunia

[Kegan 3925]

He is already taking steps in changing them but as always he is starting with the pvp side of it to see what works there as that is what he "cares" about the most.

 

Edit: Also they are not doing well at all anymore you are lucky to get 7-8s off them so it takes 4-5 just to make anything and that takes months to get your money back it is about not worth it anymore the way it is.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Kegan

[joedobo 1205]

no...I don't understand this to well, "Should traders be changed to regenerate silver every 2 or 3 months or more?"

 

yes...Traders are a way for players to benefit from money they didn't purchase and traders create lost opportunities for Wurm to earn revenue.

 

no...Forcing someone to spend 50s (38s if you can drain the 25% trader cut back) and then telling them they have to make it public is dumb. Very few people are going to spend coin they earned so others can benefit from that expenditure for free.

 

 

In my opinion what needs to happen is Wurm needs to stop trying to mimic recirculating wealth. A 10 silver money sink and then redistributing 8s of that back to traders is the same thing as reducing that money sink to 2s in the first place. Note I made up the numbers and have no idea how much is actually returned.

[Gavin 971]

If you removed traders from the game you would more than likely kill the economy unless you added some other method to redistribute coins as every coin spent on a moneysink can basically recirculate infinite amounts of time - if you instead made it so coins only recirculate once you'd likely find that suddenly hardly anyone is purchasing items from merchants and alot of deeds would likely downsize as there is like 90% less coin in circulation.

 

As others said also the amount of coin paid out to each individual trader is based on the amount of traders that exist; and considering this horse has been flogged so much lately there is far more traders than ever before; ultimately trader payouts have been negatively impacted and on the Chaos server they have practically halved in the past year.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Gavin

[Gavin 971]

And the worst part..a lot of the Trader funds comes from...The people who don't have Traders Deed's upkeep... Just thought I would toss that in there.

 

Would it be fair to say that generally the larger deeds are owned by people who have access to multiple traders and multiple characters? I think in many cases you will find that those who get coins from traders end up paying alot back into the game as they do require quite alot of effort to properly work.

 

Also whilst deed upkeep is more than likely the largest single contributor to the kings coffers which get distributed to traders surely the 10% tax on all personal merchant transactions and 10c/20c fee for mailbox usage is a very large contributor too; these mostly driven by wealthier players. On PvP servers you likely get absolutely crazy coin from the 25% tax on moneysink item purchases (res stones, twigs, magic chests etc) and even those funds have the potential to end up in traders on Freedom too.

[Neem 22]

I want to kick the horse too!!!

 

I want to start off with a story. The time frame was April last year. A group of us were hanging out on our clan Teamspeak. We are all BSing looking for a game to play when we find out one of our members has been holding out on a game she played for over a year. So boom what is this wurm thing and what keeps you coming back and wtf why hold out? All I remember from her response was, "It pays for itself." There was more but my inner cheapskate blocked it out. About 8 of us joined day one. First thing she had us build was a bed. That was a real pain but when it was finished I never felt that kind of accomplishment from a game before. I played non-premium for about 3 hrs before I bought time. I was hooked. Now I will admit, my newbie experience was pampered. I bought one of these "trader deeds" for some spending money. I don't know much about using a trader so I only get about 3-4s a month. Just enough to spend on frivolous raw mats so I don't spend all my time grinding them anymore. Because I was willing to spend money, I was able to enjoy this game unlike 6 of my other friends who left.  They left the game for its obvious flaws/bugs. If there is any dead horses that need beating it's the empty promises. I'd like to kick those smelly beasts... I digress... 

 

On the subject of traders sucking up land? If you are in need of land I would watch this video it will help open you eyes some. Most of there videos are really helpful to new players.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Neem

[validate 636]

if they did get rid of all the traders. we should just kill off all the servers except indi.    most of us with large deeds 10-50s upkeep per month. or multi useable deeds = upkeep of 10-50+s a month. would either down size a lot. or disband and just have one smaller deed.  this making is better to go back to one server again. we'd all fit . if no one had trader deeds any more.

 

oh and if the game was loosing money, we wouldn't be getting this great update coming.  a lot is still being made.  folks like me use the trader income after paying it off as folks say 5-6 months. to pay upkeep and buy bulk mats some times.  i dont use it for prem normaly. i rather pay yearly.

 

i put in over 3500eu in the 3 yrs playing this game 1/2 of that to other players for deeds. gold coins ect.  but i bought my first 4 gold form the shop. and another in dec too.  it's nice to get help for upkeep at least.

[Amadee 1545]

So sick of these posts being repeated every other week by posters with only a couple posts.  Got to be alts as far as i'm concerned.  Search the flippin forum and necro one from last week or the week before please.

 

I think what some people want is for others to fork over the 50s to set up a trader so they can go sell stuff to it and in the process screw up the ratio so it doesn't get any more coin for the rest of the month.  If I was to make a guess, I'd guess a lot of the complainers are free players to begin with.

 

So, all you people who think traders should be public, go pay the 50s yourself and set up a public one.  For the last few months they're only paying out about 6.5s a month on Indi so if you manage to keep the ratio up, it'll only take you 9 or 10 months to get your money back.  Good luck on that.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Amadee

[validate 636]

i do have a question.  not being mean , a real question.  why do some really want to get rid of traders.do us who own them really effect your game play? do we some how prevent you from getting a fair deal on things?  other then taking  a bit of land. gee my trader deeds that are not main deed. are only 11x11 and like other said in the wilderness no where anyone seems to care. but others may have prim land. that you would have liked.

 

but other then the land. what effect are us owners having on you others? 

 

no one can really say we dont put money back into the game. shop or other wise either,  i'm sure if rolf wanted to for personal use. he could gather the data and make a list of all owners based on email /paypal account. and compare it to see if any shop payments are used?  he 'd see my 800eu  in 2013  to the shop. i'm sure other pay some each yr too. at least to make up for the few who may not.

[JudusX 199]

I think there would be more willing to leave traders out in the open if we didnt have to worry about other players breaking the ratios every day. If that one thing was taken away i would leave the trader out in the open.

[Zakerak 442]

I think there would be more willing to leave traders out in the open if we didnt have to worry about other players breaking the ratios every day. If that one thing was taken away i would leave the trader out in the open.

Exactly this ^.

 

Why should I open my trader to public, so any traveler can profit from him? (and I will loose profit) While I worked hard more than half year, building ships, doing slave labors, farming, hunting for meat. Selling every fruit of my work, just to gain that 50s to buy my own trader.

 

Everybody can work hard ingame to buy his own trader or buy silvers from shop, if he is in RL wealth enough. I'm not so lucky, I'm living in wrong part of Earth.

 

If you envy others, they own traders, it is only and only your failure, that you are lazy or greedy to aquire enough silvers to buy your own one.

 

Btw, trader on freedom will return you only really small portion of your investment per month now. It is somewhere between 2-3s from Indy and slightly more from smaller servers. Best bet is wait to foundation of new servers, if there will be some in future and place your traders there.

[Busted 289]

If you want to take away traders, fine. Just refund the purchase cost first for those of us who only recently got them or leave it alone for the next 12 months so we can earn our money back off them. Then do what you like.

[Gamurin 55]

Corwii you should get a little wider look at this game. On epic cluster one guard costs 3s perr month. If you want have your deed well defended you should get 4 or more guards so most of deeds have upkeep graeter then 15s per month. Don't cry just play and with hard work get your own trader. Try to earn for it and after that we would talk about it.

[Druidnature 1118]

i do have a question. not being mean , a real question. why do some really want to get rid of traders.do us who own them really effect your game play? do we some how prevent you from getting a fair deal on things? other then taking a bit of land. gee my trader deeds that are not main deed. are only 11x11 and like other said in the wilderness no where anyone seems to care. but others may have prim land. that you would have liked.

but other then the land. what effect are us owners having on you others?

no one can really say we dont put money back into the game. shop or other wise either, i'm sure if rolf wanted to for personal use. he could gather the data and make a list of all owners based on email /paypal account. and compare it to see if any shop payments are used? he 'd see my 800eu in 2013 to the shop. i'm sure other pay some each yr too. at least to make up for the few who may not.

Go try to find a coastal deed, or a place on deli to fit a 80x80 deed on deli... A "bit of land" is more of a "85%" it's ridiculous. The biggest I found was 55x77 (and yes, I grabbed it before another trader came)

I believe the biggest issue though, is it's hurting the economy and screwing Rolf over. It allows people to even sell the gold, this killing Rolf even further.

I'm all well and good if these people use the traders to pay there upkeep. Heck - even use it to buy things from others. But using it to sell for RL euro? Your basically being handed a gold bar and re-selling it to the person that have it to you.

However, I don't care if people use them or don't, besides them taking all the land.... But the team hasn't done anything to remove them or alter them yet, so it's obviously not a big issue to them.

[Becket 843]

Voted no on all 3 of them.

Traders are something players have invested in and have been in game for as long as I have been playing which is over six years.

Nothing is stopping any player from investing in one if the want to.

[Corwii 3]

I've been playing for a while so no I'm not a alt I'm a Mercenary so no I'm not a free player. And these are just my opinions, and I'm not alone on these feelings. If you can't afford to have your deed then thats your problem, but milking free silver from a trader isn't the way to solve this. If you can't afford to play, then why play at all. And as I said this isn't about me wanting land, but wanting more land for new players, not myself. You guys need to understand everyone has their opinions. And this isn't about me wanting to milk them, this is about how people are using them to pay for premium or deeds in an unfair way. No matter how you look at it, its the wrong way to handle things. Of course you guys will disagree, thats how most of you are even living on this game, if it wasn't for them, I'm sure you wouldn't have a deed. But like I said if you can't afford it on your own, thats your problem. We are legit players that pay for our silver for upkeep and pay for our premium the fair way, not the trader way. And as someone stated here, people selling these silvers for real money should be illegal. This is bypassing wurms shop, making Rolf lose money for silver they are accumulating for free and getting paid for it. This is all wrong but what do I know? Ok...

[Blazer 566]

I acctualy made my 50s in game, so I think I deserve a trader to pay for the deed..

[rosedragon 2282]

Beating a dead horse. Traders doesn't work as intended, the team in process of revising it, but I am guessing it is difficult because we need a replacement to circulate the coins. Like it or not, if traders don't exist and no replacement made, market and especially bricks market will go down... as people then need money for premium, deed, AND ALL expenses in game. On other games, these in game economy is separated from paying premium and you beat some monsters 10000 times to gain them, not in wurm... Arguing if trader should be locked or not, removed, or not, DOESN'T SOLVE THE ISSUE.

However, I don't care if people use them or don't, besides them taking all the land.... But the team hasn't done anything to remove them or alter them yet, so it's obviously not a big issue to them. 

 

Sell feature is one of one way they want to change how traders work.

 

If we want to solve this trader issue, focus on feature ideas to circulate coins.

 

ps: my trader in independence made around 5 silvers a month, return of investment took 7 months.

Edited February 11, 2014 by rosedragon

[Becket 843]

God I'm so tired of these boohoo they have a trader and I don't its so unfair posts.

spend 50s get a trader the current return on Indy is around 8s a cycle just stop freaking whining about them.

[Pinky 35]

If you spend 50s on a trader and only make 8s per month back, your investment is six to seven months before you even see a silver in profit.  And at 8s a month you dont even pay for premium for a char.  By the time you start making money out of the trader you have spent another 60 to 70s on premium alone.  Why moan and groan about traders?  If you want one, buy one.  If you want to open it to all players, do so.  If you don't want one, why would you worry about them having to be 64 tiles from each other?  I have no idea why people keep talking about this as it is a game mechanic that gives loyal, paying players some reward for their investment.  Leave it alone.