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joedobo

rare raw resource to rare refined item.

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Create from a rare shard, a brick. This gives a rare roll that has the normal probabilities associated with it. If you're successful the rare quality is transferred to the brick otherwise the rare property is destroyed. If the property wasn't removed you could just keep trying and effectively remove the "chance" aspect of it.


 


This mechanic would apply to all other things not just bricks.


 


Another variation is to use up the whole rare resources. 20 kg shards entirely used to make one brick, 24 kg rare log used to make one shaft. Again you'd get the appropriate probability rare role for the attempt. If successful the refined product is rare otherwise either rare property or your raw resources is destroyed.


 


For those that don't know, not all rare rolls are 50%. Multipart constructs have there rare roll chance reduced to compensate for the fact that you get multiple rolls (its assumed that you can get rare mats for all parts).


 


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Rares are already easy enough to make for those who know how, this idea would potentially ruin the market for many rares if not all of them.

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I think rare shards, lump, logs are pretty useless. I disagree it will greatly hurt the market if players are given a 50% chance to turn any of those into a brick, nail, shaft; retrospectively. Besides, imo, making something useful in a way it should be used should have precedence over people who are making lots of silver by playing a game of start and stop creation actions.


 


I guess I think rares should be used to build stuff not sacrifice for refresh. Without saccing item like shards, lump and logs would be nearly useless.


 


We could reduce the chance down from 50% if its determined it would make things too common. I'm very puzzled at the idea rares are too easy to get. I don't think they are considering the benefits gained.


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in my opinion a rare item should use a rare resource to create them, or even multiple rare resources.


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If you increase the rare chance to something like 10-50% the amount of rare refined items as you call it would increase alot. Getting rare raw materials really isnt that hard. If u've ever imped alot ull know it's not as if your missing out on anything it not easy for us to get useful rares either.


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It is extremely easy to get useful rares..

]https://www.dropbox.com/s/0qvnwn4o018i6r7/rarelist.png]

Now please imagine what it would do to the economy if I could turn every rare log, shaft, handle, blade, and etc into a rare item. It would be detrimental. Please, no.

There are a lot of people who are able to mass produce the things. I think we really need to remember that they are called "rare" for a reason, they are supposed to be uncommon and hard to get/make. Grant it that if this idea only worked for trivial things like stone shards into bricks, that wouldn't be a problem. But the mechanic itself being implemented would mean I could use, say, a rare handle, to automagically make a rare tool. That right there is what would destroy the existing economy for them, or what is left of it.

Edited by whereami

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Just do it for one rarity level lower. Rare materials wouldn't do anything but supreme materials could make rare items and fantastic materials could make supreme items. At the very least let fantastic materials have a guaranteed chance of making one rare(not fantastic or supreme) item. Fantastic is uncommon enough that it should be useful like that. Just strip the fantastic trait from the crafting material if not all of it is used when making the item.

Rares are already easy enough to make for those who know how, this idea would potentially ruin the market for many rares if not all of them.

So perhaps the drumroll and other visual effects associated with making a rare should only happen after a rare is successfully made. That way people can't force a rare by just constantly cancelling create actions until they get the notification that the next item will be a rare. Kinda silly to have a market for only those that possess secret knowledge and just make it random as intended.

Edited by Theodis

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 But the mechanic itself being implemented would mean I could use, say, a rare handle, to automagically make a rare tool. That right there is what would destroy the existing economy for them, or what is left of it.

I'm not disputing the difficulty in getting rares. I probably have more than you. I've even had days where I have made multiple tools in a single day. 

 

I see you don't want rares becoming any more common and this idea would let us make use of things like rare shards, lumps, and logs which in turn would make finished products more common.

 

But I want to point out that you're exaggerating. Once an hour at a random time you get a 50% to get a rare-like roll. Lets assume you're trying for a log. Then, you use this rare log and get immediate 50% to make a rare shaft from that log. This means you don't have to create at your lucky point during the hour. Finally, you would get an immediate 50% to make a rare handle from that shaft. That is by no means "automagically".  

We will ignore the log and ore roll initial roll. These are raw resources that will continue to function as they current do. I'm interesting showing how converting these to a finished tool actually has a small probability. There are 4 total actions to go from log and ore to say a carving knife: log to shaft, shaft to handle, lump to blade, handle + blade. 4 success rolls in a row where each roll is a 50% chance happens 6.3% of the time.

What would happen if we reduced that 50% down to 27% for the 4 rolls? You'd get a rare carving knife 0.53% (yes, half one percent) of the time.

 

 I double checked all this with a binomial distribtuion forumula  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution.

 

 

 

in my opinion a rare item should use a rare resource to create them, or even multiple rare resources.

This would make sense and would create a use for all the rare raw resource we get. You get a chance to convert rare shards to a rare brick. And that rare brick can be used to get a chance to make a rare finished product. 

 

If you increase the rare chance to something like 10-50% the amount of rare refined items as you call it would increase alot. Getting rare raw materials really isnt that hard. If u've ever imped alot ull know it's not as if your missing out on anything it not easy for us to get useful rares either.

Creating a use for shards and increasing the supply of bricks, yep. I think that is a good idea. If you carefully look at the numbers it's clear that the overall occurrence of finished products isn't huge. Using 10% and the carving knive example I just made above, well that would occur 0.01% of the time. Remember that you only get one chance to craft with the rare and upon failure that property is destroyed.

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I don't see an issue with leaving the rarity system as it is?  That's just me, however.


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Rares are already easy enough to make for those who know how, this idea would potentially ruin the market for many rares if not all of them.

 

 

For those who know how???

 

Um just trying to understand this one here.....is there something people are doing to create more than normal??

 

As far as easier to get... its already easier to get when getting logs, dirt, etc....which is why you have more of those.

 

I do not think it should be easier at creation of actual items though.

Edited by Protunia

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Tbh rare items are already to easy to get...

 

No they are not. Not in my experience of Wurm.

 

Since the Rare system got put in I think I have gotten a grand total of 2 or 3 dozen rare dirts/sprouts, a few rare rock hards.... and hundreds of the drum rolls... but not ONE rare item have I been able to create. Not one. Several times I have used rare resources to attempt to create a rare item, always nothing. Getting rare resources only screws up my inventory as far as I am concerned... because no matter what I do they don't make rare items when used.

 

Every time someone brags in chat that they got a rare time made I want to call them a liar, but I don't. Maybe they are telling the truth, I have seen rare boats/ships...

 

I would almost like to know what cheats/exploits people are using to get them. Almost. It's tempting.

 

(I think I would rather play the game honest, so forget what I said about "almost")

 

JoeDobo said..." Once an hour at a random time you get a 50% to get a rare-like roll."

 

I don't believe this for a minute. I have some days played for 10-12 hours and not once did I get a drumroll. I have gone sometimes almost a week without one.

 

Whatever they do with the "Rarity" system all I really care about is that they don't break something simple like changing rare chance and the game actually getting nerfed so it's harder to make everything.

Edited by Kyrmius

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I don't believe this for a minute. I have some days played for 10-12 hours and not once did I get a drumroll. I have gone sometimes almost a week without one.

 

 

From what I've gathered(and some assumptions) every hour of uptime you're assigned a brief window of time.  If you start an action and win your coin toss(ie 50% chance) within this window of time you get a drum roll for your current action if it's a rare-able action.  If you're doing things with a long timer, not starting actions frequently, or are doing actions like repairing which can't result in a drum roll it's easy possible to miss the window or hit it with an action that doesn't count.  This is why it seems like it happens regularly when doing something like digging because it's easy to keybind and you rarely have any downtime or are performing other actions in the middle which don't count like repairing after an imp.  If you're creating a new item either through crafting or harvesting a raw resource it seems like it's an automatic rare if you succeed with the action.  If you're imping something it seems there is a fairly low chance of the item going rare.  If you raise the villages enchanting bonus you increase the size of the rare window so it's more likely you'll hit it rather than miss it with a long action or a short break on your part.

 

People are forcing rare outcomes by just starting to make an item and then canceling the action if it doens't produce a drum roll and repeating this over and over until they get the drum roll.  Since the rare chance never fails on a successful create action after getting the drum roll and because you spend very little time in the create action it's very unlikely you'll miss your rare window when it comes.  If you have the patience you can pretty much get a rare anything by doing this.

 

It's sad when people argue against new ways of making rares because they'd be less rare all the while keeping stuff like this to themselves so they can keep a stronger hold on their market for them by churning them out methodically.  If they were really interested in keeping rares rare they'd be making suggestions to fix these kinds of loopholes.

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JoeDobo said..." Once an hour at a random time you get a 50% to get a rare-like roll."

 

I don't believe this for a minute. I have some days played for 10-12 hours and not once did I get a drumroll. I have gone sometimes almost a week without one.

I pulled that from the wiki. Also based on my observation of maxing my village rare window extension (you sacrifice stuff) and then creating stuff about every 10 seconds for many hours.

 

But ya I don't have proof of the chance or frequence of getting a rare roll. And when I get a roll it almost always turns rare, almost never goes Supreme and I'm not sure fantastic is even possible.

 

As far as easier to get... its already easier to get when getting logs, dirt, etc....which is why you have more of those.

 

I do not think it should be easier at creation of actual items though.

I believe it just appears that way. How many people craft a pickaxe every 10 sec for hours a day? Many people dig and mine for hours a day and some do it under 10s each time. I really don't think the chance of getting a rare roll is different for anything, Its that some activities are just done a lot more frequently.

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People are forcing rare outcomes by just starting to make an item and then canceling the action if it doens't produce a drum roll and repeating this over and over until they get the drum roll.  

 

 

Interesting...wondered if they thought about that or not.

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It's sad when people argue against new ways of making rares because they'd be less rare all the while keeping stuff like this to themselves so they can keep a stronger hold on their market for them by churning them out methodically.  If they were really interested in keeping rares rare they'd be making suggestions to fix these kinds of loopholes.

Wurm gameplay in a nutshell.

Discover unintended game mechanic.

Abuse and exploit with friends for profit.

Wait until people start to discover it and make a thread letting everyone know how it's done, removing profitability for anyone else.

Loophole gets closed with band aid patch that breaks more than it fixes.

Troll inevitable window of opportunity complaint thread.

Repeat.

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Wait until people start to discover it and make a thread letting everyone know how it's done, removing profitability for anyone else.

Ideally I'd like it if we crated a use for rare raw resources (rock shard, log, ore). If these things could be used to make rare tools, and by used I mean gives a considerable rare creation bonus, then the market for them would go up. It would also make it more possible for others to make rare tools. Thus, this isn't about asking for a nerf after I got a complete set of rare tools. Its an attempt to improve the system for future makes or rare tools.

 

A lot of the time an issue is something that could be turned into an opportunity to improve the game. Its a clear indication that player want such a thing.The only question left is, how can those desires be satisfied in a more controlled way.

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There is already a chance that using rare materials transfer to the thing you create or improve. Consuming a rare material when improving has a 1/100 possibility to transfer rarity. When improving or polishing a drum roll doesn't always mean rarity.


 


The window is 20 seconds plus up to 10 of village faith creation bonus so if you always create stuff in shorter time than 20-30 seconds you'll hit the window even if you don't restart actions like that. Meddling with inventory or materials may make you miss the window of course, while restarting the action will always make you hit the window.


 


We're discussing to move the drumroll to end of action. If we only move it to the last seconds people will still cancel at "second x" in order to avoid risking inventory management by using up the materials.


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 When improving or polishing a drum roll doesn't always mean rarity.

 

 

so just out of curiosity... what does that drum roll mean then?

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so just out of curiosity... what does that drum roll mean then?

 

It means you've the chance to get something of rarity.

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The create and cancel thing is pretty much.. your automatic response of cancelling might cancel that drumroll ;p ... except for concern of mats, could just make thousands of the item. Interestingly, it seems newly premmed character often get the first non-material rare very quick.


 


Moving the rarity chance to end of creation means no more anticipation of drumtroll... which I actually like, since I hate it drumTROLLing me... (somehow I able to turn off the screen effect and sound effect tho so alright :D ) .


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@ Thread general

What I learned from Rolf's post. The smartest use of rare raw resources is to create light weight items from them so you can get the resource down to <1 kg. Then, use that resource to improve until its gone. The 1/100 imp chance of something going rare when you completely use up raw resources appears to be the best use.

 


 




There is already a chance that using rare materials transfer to the thing you create or improve. Consuming a rare material when improving has a 1/100 possibility to transfer rarity. When improving or polishing a drum roll doesn't always mean rarity.


 


The window is 20 seconds plus up to 10 of village faith creation bonus so if you always create stuff in shorter time than 20-30 seconds you'll hit the window even if you don't restart actions like that. Meddling with inventory or materials may make you miss the window of course, while restarting the action will always make you hit the window.


 


We're discussing to move the drumroll to end of action. If we only move it to the last seconds people will still cancel at "second x" in order to avoid risking inventory management by using up the materials.




The chance to transfer rare quality from from say a shard to brick is way too low (imo impossible because of the kg difference). Lets try something different, I just tried to make a plank from a rare 4 kg log. I tried many times and never saw the rare roll (yes, start and stop create). Seems to me its using the "lucky" once an hour method. I'm not trying to get you to show numbers. Its just that the chance of converting a rare resources (shards, log, ore) into a finished tool is so small its not even worth it to try. I'm think its considerably less then 1% (basically its smarter to imp with rare then to craft from rare).

 

One problem is that the system relies on resource consumption. Its often not possible to consume the whole raw resource. Try to consume a whole rare shard making a brick. By doing the transfer independent of weight and either destroying the rare property or the whole resource we avoid the issue of not matching weights.

 

You seem to be ok with the idea that consuming a rare resource could lead to a rare tool 1% of the time when imping with a rare. Wouldn't it be the same as long as crafting with rare resources ends up with the same 1% chance? Using a pickaxe as an example: rare log to rare shaft, rare lump to rare pickaxe head, rare shaft + rare head is 3 actions. If each one had a 25% chance of transferring rare and you would only get one roll each time then the chance of succeeding 3 times in a row would happen 0.0156, or 1.5%. Any tool that uses a handle would be even less likely. Further, this doesn't account for how crafting would take at least two rare raw resources (usually a log and lump) where as imping uses one. Oh, no waiting for the rare window when trying to transfer rare properties.

 

 

devils advocate: "Consuming a rare material when improving has a 1/100 possibility to transfer rarity". I hope that chance is smaller for imping multipart objects like towers. Lets use the tower as an example, I"m assuming that each rare resource attached to a tower for construction (continue action) gives about a 0.00063 chance. If you attach 1,100 rares to a tower, 50% of the time not a single one will succeed if each attempt is that 0.00063. It would be considerably easier to improve at 1/100 chance. To put it another way, if you had 500 rare shards its highly unlikely you could build a rare tower. But imping with them: 0.99^500 is 0.0066; Here 99.34% of the time the tower would go rare.

 


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From what I've gathered(and some assumptions) every hour of uptime you're assigned a brief window of time.  If you start an action and win your coin toss(ie 50% chance) within this window of time you get a drum roll for your current action if it's a rare-able action.  If you're doing things with a long timer, not starting actions frequently, or are doing actions like repairing which can't result in a drum roll it's easy possible to miss the window or hit it with an action that doesn't count.  This is why it seems like it happens regularly when doing something like digging because it's easy to keybind and you rarely have any downtime or are performing other actions in the middle which don't count like repairing after an imp.  If you're creating a new item either through crafting or harvesting a raw resource it seems like it's an automatic rare if you succeed with the action.  If you're imping something it seems there is a fairly low chance of the item going rare.  If you raise the villages enchanting bonus you increase the size of the rare window so it's more likely you'll hit it rather than miss it with a long action or a short break on your part.

 

I never add Player made Keybinds to my game.( I won't explain why here, I don't want to argue about it in this thread.) I wait for my stamina to refill before I start another action usually, except for two actions... grooming and cutting planks/shafts. I can't remember the last time I got a rare plank or shaft to be honest. Maybe this is why I don't see rares much. I am no gambler, nor do I attempt to get my character to do things that would seem to be beyond reason or ability, nor against how they are designed by the Devs. Wurm is not a game to me, it is a virtual reality first, and I run my characters accordingly.

 

People are forcing rare outcomes by just starting to make an item and then canceling the action if it doesn't produce a drum roll and repeating this over and over until they get the drum roll.  Since the rare chance never fails on a successful create action after getting the drum roll and because you spend very little time in the create action it's very unlikely you'll miss your rare window when it comes.  If you have the patience you can pretty much get a rare anything by doing this.

 

I myself would consider starting actions and cancelling them before completion (if no drum roll) to be an attempt to EXPLOIT and I won't do Wurm that way. The Players that do this ought to be thankful I am no Dev or GM, that #$%^ would cease fast and with much Tears of accounts lost. That's how much I am against any kind of gameplay of that similar type and kind.

 

It's sad when people argue against new ways of making rares because they'd be less rare all the while keeping stuff like this to themselves so they can keep a stronger hold on their market for them by churning them out methodically.  If they were really interested in keeping rares rare they'd be making suggestions to fix these kinds of loopholes.

 

This does not surprise me in the least bit. Many People in general are selfish and greedy for the most part. Enough said.

 

Your explanations reveal something to me... as the Rare system is designed Right Now Players that play Wurm as I do stand very little chance of ever successfully creating a Rare Item... whereas the Player that use the game in a manner un-intended may in fact achieve great success at Rare creation.

 

...and to be honest, with how Wurm works and has worked, with how it's been run for years, I am not surprised. A player like me is wasting time trying to make a rare item.... the system hasn't been designed for how I play Wurm.

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain this. Much appreciated.

Edited by Kyrmius

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Your explanations reveal something to me... as the Rare system is designed Right Now Players that play Wurm as I do stand very little chance of ever successfully creating a Rare Item... whereas the Player that use the game in a manner un-intended may in fact achieve great success at Rare creation.

 

...and to be honest, with how Wurm works and has worked, with how it's been run for years, I am not surprised. A player like me is wasting time trying to make a rare item.... the system hasn't been designed for how I play Wurm.

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain this. Much appreciated.

 

Most games are this way devs make something and some players find ways to game the system every time.....typical gaming.

Edited by Protunia

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Move the drumroll so it plays only after the rare has been created!  


 


The current implementation doesn't make any sense at all and promotes that you start/stop creation until you get the drumroll without spending any materials. I guess if you have rare material it is even easier since in average 100 create actions is all you need to make a rare?!!?  This can never be the intent, sure, it is not currently seen as an exploit, but in my mind it sounds alot like one, it's exploit like behaviour to do so and thus the game should not be designed like it. 


 


---


 


Rares should be totally random and RARE. No way to choose what becomes rare, except being able to up the chances a bit by using rare materials and village bonuses.


 


OR


 


Remake the rare system and make it like Kaih suggested. No randomness, just have the correct material and you can make the rare item. Of course, imping will have to be solved in some good way then too, like if you want to go up a level in rarity you need the imping material to be that rarity or higher, consumes at least one rare raw material maybe more if it is a big item.


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