Posted January 9, 2014 Chaos will never have anywhere near the level of PVP on epic due to time as Gaeron mentioned.On epic you can find a fight in 30 min from anywhere. On chaos you usually have to travel for an hour or two minimum, worse if the wind is bad.The map is also horrible to travel even on horse. Elevation is a pvpers dream you can ride anywhere pretty easy. If Chaos doesnt get a new map designed with the new skills Rolf has showon on elevation making that map it will never rival epic in the amount of PVP.I feel bad because so many good accounts and fights so few and far between. If you are stuck on that horrible designed trashed map and in love with it the only way to help the time issue is double or greater boat speeds. Sadly I think Chaos will always be behind Elevation a new map is the only way to start fixing things with any meaningful result. On Chaos you plan for a raid a week or two ahead. On elevation you can raid and get in a big fight every day of the week at nearly any time, in a half hour or less. Its sad. Chaos is missing out... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 The only time I have seen sustained daily skirmishes on a large level is the WAR Gavin mentioned. That is not feasible to do constantly.The work that went into setting up that siege was ridiculous and mammoth in scale. The only time we see more pvp is during a siege such as the legendary on on VH, or the WL battle after it initially moved. The level and intensity of fights on epic even passes those though and without such massive large scale and unsustainable events such as those mentioned you simply will not get daily pvp on a whim like epic offers. We really need to look at the positives of epic and why pvp is so much more prevalent there and apply it to chaos. I pray for a new map, wild version 2.0 Rolf you did an amazing job making the epic maps. I hope you can do the same for Chaos. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) I was being very skeptic about what we did to the WL. Truth be told that it will be really difficult for you guys to recharge, but when I think how you lock up the artifacts and pretty much remove them from the server, I think the fate played a good game with the artifacts location. Brought back a feature into the game. Well will bring. Seriously tell me, show me a single JK player that has more than 40 skill in warhammer ... Ill-Informed-Issle, i like that name. The problem with the use of artifacts in JK is the fact that no body (or well, very rarely) asks for them or wants to use them. So please before you listen to your ancient tales from your poorly informed elders, check facts. For what it's worth i gave away an artifact not so long ago. There are also various people in JK with over 40 warhammer skill, one being me. Hammers: 27.367609 27.367609 0 Warhammer: 50.13914 50.13914 0 Stop you silly posting + verify info Edit: would like a map reset too Edited January 9, 2014 by MetalDragon 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Yeah, not small like Epic but a bit less than how now it is. Anyway a smaller map make stay enemies more close = more pvp. Davy, stop, just stop. Smaller land doesn't always mean pvp. Wurm is a sandbox game driven by the players. This is a game where you take the land and sculpt it. Where everyone can have a chance to work the land. What's the point if you don't have any land to work with? One of the main attractions of Chaos is that it is so big, not only that it is ancient. There is a ton of history here and people building learn to work around and with that. It's part of living here. Typical, just typical. Can't have it your way then you want to kick the board over like an enraged toddler, that's all I'm hearing in many of these posts. You want to know why there is not much pvp from your kingdom? Because you guys have found it's much more effective to come here and moan and complain until something gets changed your way. Hell we are guilty of that too, but we are also the ones going out there and trying to poke and prod you guys INTO pvp, and this is what we get. The fundamental problems with pvp is the mechanics. It always has and always will be, that is why it is more effective to get something nerfed or buffed to try to get an advantage. Look at the BL's post, I think Daolin is delusional if he thinks the half-dozen members of his little pity party in Comm will even have a spitting chance in hell at taking even B-listers from MR by trying to introduce mechanics changes that really do nothing to change the situation. I mean what do you want, an arm or a leg, or just the pants missing from one of your kingdom's drake sets instead of the whole thing? I have to say it's about the most hilarious idea I've heard here, and that's saying a lot since it's hard to top some of the ones in this post much less that. The point I'm trying to make is that all we are trying to talk about here is how we can change the mechanics of the fighting itself and less about how we are going to generate the conditions where it will ever happen in the first place. It won't take a land change, and it won't take some magic pill. What it will take is proactive changes in the community itself. This is a game built by the players, we build our own home and should have the freedom to be able to shift the gameplay around. Trying to let players actually catch up to existing players here lets more people participate and widens the playerbase. Shrinking the server, will just result in less land for less factions and lowering the player base. Give BL It's PMK, they are at a significant disadvantage. That has been evident for years, since this whole PMK thing started. I do like the earlier idea posed however, to get rid of the set templates and let us chose a patron god. This also allows for expansion if Nathan ever gets his own little cult of ecstatic groupies in the form of a new kingdom here. (I still don't know if hes supposed to be WL or BL, shows you how much I actually know/care about epic. ) Any decision made on trying to change PvP here should be to let people in on the action if they choose to do so, and in their own way. We have a HUGE player base to work with off of the other freedom servers, It won't be fancy bow ties or gimiks that get people here, it will always be what Wurm IS, that is a way to make it on their own in their own way. That IS the whole point of a sandbox game, not trying to play some sort of twisted fourm PvP game. Edited January 9, 2014 by Battlepaw Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 yeah i do not see anyone in JK asking for artifacts. hell we keep them sacred in my opinion rather not lose it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 Reset/remove chaos sounds terrible. If that would happen I'd rather see chaos become a freedom server and add a new smaller server for pvp. But as already mentioned, this is getting out of hand. He asked for easy fixes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 I think BattlePaw is exactally correct. This post isn't about increasing PVP on whichever server. It is about what changes to the current PVP system is needed to make the PVP experience more enjoyable. I think there are several posts that answer this such as... rock, paper, scissors type of armor and weapon system and no archery while wearing plate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Please look into fixing all the non-movable items (lamps, signs, etc) which are preventing caves from being collapsed. These VERY EASY to make and VERY HARD to destroy (even mediocre quality) items prevent players from having a tactical advantage within a mine system. Multiple of these items can be placed onto a single tile. I can make a 1x 50ql sign in a minute or two, these items take 5 players around ~10 minutes each to destroy, I can also place 5 of these on a single tile forcing the group to spend a heck of a lot more time for something I did in 10 minutes. These items are one of the main problems preventing players from being able to comfortably destroy or damage a towns supporting dirt wall. See: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/90984-allow-us-to-steal-deal-a-lot-more-damage-to-plantables/ Edited January 9, 2014 by MetalDragon 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 Please look into fixing all the non-movable items (lamps, signs, etc) which are preventing caves from being collapsed. These VERY EASY to make and VERY HARD to destroy (even mediocre quality) items prevent players from having a tactical advantage within a mine system. Multiple of these items can be placed onto a single tile. I can make a 1x 50ql sign in a minute or two, these items take 5 players around ~10 minutes each to destroy, I can also place 5 of these on a single tile forcing the group to spend a heck of a lot more time for something I did in 10 minutes. See: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/90984-allow-us-to-steal-deal-a-lot-more-damage-to-plantables/ There needs to be a way to defend your tunnels, would support beam work? Only 1 per tile and very strong but breakable Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) The same way you defend your roads. Wall them in (reinforcement beams either side) and yourself and a sword. I can catapult your layers of walls on your roads, but I can't deal that sort of damage to your macho street lamps. and fwiw I personally see shaker orbs as OP, they should have a timer for using rather than being instant. Magranon has the same ability but it requires a 3 minute wait in order to trap all your enemies inside a cave. Shaker Orbs as it stands on a PvP server are pretty much a Pay-To-Win item - Pay 5 silver to lock your enemy inside a cave immediately. Edited January 9, 2014 by MetalDragon 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 I think BattlePaw is exactally correct. This post isn't about increasing PVP on whichever server. It is about what changes to the current PVP system is needed to make the PVP experience more enjoyable. I think there are several posts that answer this such as... rock, paper, scissors type of armor and weapon system and no archery while wearing plate. Making archery impossible while wearing plate puts non drake wearers at a huge disadvantage. As it is now, plate is a poor mans drake, taking that away would only cause newer, less skilled players to use chain and leave them even more venerable. I own drake, and would much rather fight in plate because of the carefree attitude I have not worrying about throwing 60e down the drain because I made one tactical mistake. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 Please look into fixing all the non-movable items (lamps, signs, etc) which are preventing caves from being collapsed. These VERY EASY to make and VERY HARD to destroy (even mediocre quality) items prevent players from having a tactical advantage within a mine system. Multiple of these items can be placed onto a single tile. I can make a 1x 50ql sign in a minute or two, these items take 5 players around ~10 minutes each to destroy, I can also place 5 of these on a single tile forcing the group to spend a heck of a lot more time for something I did in 10 minutes. See: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/90984-allow-us-to-steal-deal-a-lot-more-damage-to-plantables/ Weird. A few months ago a cave tile collapsed on a street lamp i had. The lamp was teleported to the corresponding surface tile, but the cave tile still collapsed. Maybe this needs to start happening again? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) If this can be done via shaker orb & Magranon's spell ability Strong Wall, then that works fine. Relying on nature is quite a big ask when it comes to PvP situations Edited January 9, 2014 by MetalDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 Making archery impossible while wearing plate puts non drake wearers at a huge disadvantage. As it is now, plate is a poor mans drake, taking that away would only cause newer, less skilled players to use chain and leave them even more venerable. I own drake, and would much rather fight in plate because of the carefree attitude I have not worrying about throwing 60e down the drain because I made one tactical mistake. I am all for a little give and take. Remove plate from archers for increased shooting speeds remove all but cloth from priests for faster favor gains while praying Right now everyone is a cookie cutter of each other. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 Davy, stop, just stop. Smaller land doesn't always mean pvp. Wurm is a sandbox game driven by the players. This is a game where you take the land and sculpt it. Where everyone can have a chance to work the land. What's the point if you don't have any land to work with? One of the main attractions of Chaos is that it is so big, not only that it is ancient. There is a ton of history here and people building learn to work around and with that. It's part of living here. Typical, just typical. Can't have it your way then you want to kick the board over like an enraged toddler, that's all I'm hearing in many of these posts. You want to know why there is not much pvp from your kingdom? Because you guys have found it's much more effective to come here and moan and complain until something gets changed your way. Hell we are guilty of that too, but we are also the ones going out there and trying to poke and prod you guys INTO pvp, and this is what we get. The fundamental problems with pvp is the mechanics. It always has and always will be, that is why it is more effective to get something nerfed or buffed to try to get an advantage. Look at the BL's post, I think Daolin is delusional if he thinks the half-dozen members of his little pity party in Comm will even have a spitting chance in hell at taking even B-listers from MR by trying to introduce mechanics changes that really do nothing to change the situation. I mean what do you want, an arm or a leg, or just the pants missing from one of your kingdom's drake sets instead of the whole thing? I have to say it's about the most hilarious idea I've heard here, and that's saying a lot since it's hard to top some of the ones in this post much less that. The point I'm trying to make is that all we are trying to talk about here is how we can change the mechanics of the fighting itself and less about how we are going to generate the conditions where it will ever happen in the first place. It won't take a land change, and it won't take some magic pill. What it will take is proactive changes in the community itself. This is a game built by the players, we build our own home and should have the freedom to be able to shift the gameplay around. Trying to let players actually catch up to existing players here lets more people participate and widens the playerbase. Shrinking the server, will just result in less land for less factions and lowering the player base. Give BL It's PMK, they are at a significant disadvantage. That has been evident for years, since this whole PMK thing started. I do like the earlier idea posed however, to get rid of the set templates and let us chose a patron god. This also allows for expansion if Nathan ever gets his own little cult of ecstatic groupies in the form of a new kingdom here. (I still don't know if hes supposed to be WL or BL, shows you how much I actually know/care about epic. ) Any decision made on trying to change PvP here should be to let people in on the action if they choose to do so, and in their own way. We have a HUGE player base to work with off of the other freedom servers, It won't be fancy bow ties or gimiks that get people here, it will always be what Wurm IS, that is a way to make it on their own in their own way. That IS the whole point of a sandbox game, not trying to play some sort of twisted fourm PvP game. Battlepaw you usually make well informed posts but I have to disagree completely. Chaos will never have pvp equal or even close to epic simply because of travel times as Gaeron hinted at. Kick the board over.... The board is fundamentally broke. It is time to kick it over. Onward and upward. Make a new map that is travel sensitive and issue deed refunds and lets get on with it. If not be happy travelling 4 hours to a raid once a month. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) I think BattlePaw is exactally correct. This post isn't about increasing PVP on whichever server. It is about what changes to the current PVP system is needed to make the PVP experience more enjoyable. I think there are several posts that answer this such as... rock, paper, scissors type of armor and weapon system and no archery while wearing plate. Can you read the OP? It is certainly about increasing pvp.... Rolf said just that.... a lot of people seem to agree that a few changes to PvP might increase activity quite a lot and I'm interested in your top 5 suggestions Edited January 9, 2014 by Suntzu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) The number one detriment to PVP is TIME as Gaeron pointed out so brilliantly. 2-4 hour travel times to raid or find pvp = low pvp, no ifs ands or buts. Fixing that is the only way to INCREASE pvp like Rolf asked about, its simple and it is the most effective thing you can fix to see a big jump in pvp activity. Edited January 9, 2014 by Suntzu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) A problem with nerf / buff suggestions for improving PvP is that it has potential to swing either way, all dependant on who is playing. For example, nerfing mine doors may increase PvP for those who are happy to risk anything, but it will force players back on deed who don't want to lose their valuables. This statement is probably more suitable towards Chaos, I've quite a few Epic videos and those multiple large groups are quite ballsy. I agree with Suntzu, time is a key problem. I still think Chaos is the best map left available (landscape) but is too big for the current player base, it's a good money generator for Rolf for those who require twigs are various towns when under attack I've not been a fan of those epic sized maps though Edited January 9, 2014 by MetalDragon 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 Metal the reason you see those fights ALL the time is that wasting 4 hours of your life traveling in game is worse than losing your gear.It would be amazing to see fights like that on wild with all the bad ass accounts around. On elevation If it takes 30 minutes to get to a fight and I die I have 3.5 hours to play and craft instead of afk in a boat... Just an example. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 I'd suggest either completely removing, or having a massive cooldown on the use of FW's in PvP. Probably better to remove them. Also tower guards should not attack horses 100% of the time, that needs toning down. Then catapulting needs looked into. As it is now it is impossible to target the bottom of any multi level structure, you have to start at the top. Keep res stones, and no map reset. Thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 I think a small detail that I know has prevented a number of people that I know who want to go to Chaos (but are afraid to) is to make it harder to lose affinities. A lot of players on the Freedom cluster seem to really cherish their affinities and are often afraid to lose them, at least from what I've experienced/heard. In fact, Chaos really isn't friendly to newbies, period. All the minor changes are fine and all, but if you really want to solve the issue, fix the route of the problem and make it more friendly for people wanting to start out there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 I know it is not possible, but here's my utopia: *remove Chaos and Epic, but keep player stats (and small downgrading of Epic players because of their easier learning curve) You know it's not possible but yet you still say it. You make no sense. For 1 I started on wild back in 2010. So keeping my player stats is impossible since I am Fo on Freedom/wild and Vyn on Epic. If I wanted to play on wild/chaos I could. but I don't want too. I had waited (an extra year) for epic to finally be released to get a fresh start. Even in this thread we have people still complaining about the increasing divide between the new and old players. which obviously has gotten even worse by now not to mention all the bugged out items (fountain packs) and special gift items that actually do something, basically forcing me to pay someone rediculous prices, to be on the same level field (not including stats). I like not having spy glasses, no Bok's, no FWA's. and No huge divide that can't be closed within months instead of years. but if you guys want to keep playing there go for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 Okay seriously. As fascinating as it is to come back to this thread every 10 minutes to hear you guys debate the current situation of the WL on Chaos. This thread is about quick and simple mechanic changes that can improve PvP across Wurm. Please, stay on topic as I (and many others) consider this a very important discussion. Bump... this thread is no longer worth following. Thanks everyone who made suggestions but kept the drama in appropriate threads. Good luck Rolf. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 Uhrm. Then no one thinks that no skill loss on death+faster imp rate is not worth a shot? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 9, 2014 You don't have to start from the top when catapulting. It is a very easy system when you know how to use it. The messages given when catapulting throws people off because they are inconsistent when you hit different parts of the building. The whole damage vs catapulting should be changed, remove max cap, make additional things matter when catapulting calculating damage (always take multiple shots). Add additional siege equipment, some better suited than others. (Catapults damage walls more damage further away, but harder to aim, ram deal more close up damage etc) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
