Feedback request on fence stuff

[Audrel 2,223]

Fix bsb locking on deeds. Make it so any locked item on a deed can be opened by a mayor. I built walls and stuff to keep my boxes safe from this. Now it's suggested to just fly over that and have access to it? Or jump off a pile of dirt?

 

-1 as flying is just a more expedited way to grief.

[Audrel 2,223]

+1 collisions

+1 jumping

+1 flying with severe restrictions.

 

-1 to people that want to live in their secure bubbles that nobody can intrude. Dont play online games.

 

Secure bubbles. Yes. Walls and fences to keep you out. -1 to people who feel they have the right to bust into people's stuff because it's there.

[meiyeeer 78]

The entire point is to fix getting stuck inside fences right? Being able to fly out with creatures wouldn't help at all, because likely you don't have whatever flying creature you can ride from inside the fence.

[Arkonick 557]

I will mention 1 game and show you how easy it was to destroy it. Star Wars Galaxies. NGE Patch. Taking SWG to a FPS style game devastated it so bad they had to close the entire game.

 

This is how I see wurm. if any of the 2 Flying or Jumping any type of wall comes into play I will warn you know this will happen. Wurm is so unique it doesn't need this crap.

What it does need is a vast more of mobs and some new skills with a lot more wall types for nicer looking buildings.

 

You could add steam power to wurm and it has a 100% less chance of causing a SWG NGE to happen.

Look at ESO it's in beta and tanking so hard and all them ES fans are bashing ESO. So how the heck do they plan on making any money if the vast majority of there fans hate it?

 

Wurm already has to low of a fan base IMO and IS already built on a real world money trade system that is built in a way that it kills it's newcomers and fan base it don't need no more salt on it's wounds.

 

EDIT: Before people say wurm has a huge player base. I will say stop kidding your self. The average player in wurm owns 2 or more account's that are paid subs. Do the math. Player base is and always on any game measured by paid account's.

In EQ I had for 10 years 6 paid accounts for the full 10 years An I was counted as 6 individual paying players. EQ2 3 account's. SWG 4 account's. WOW 2 account's and the list goes on. It is not uncommon in todays time and age that a player has less than 2 or more account's that are fully paid and keep up.

 

Math time So if 500 players owned 2 account's and all 500 paid and keep them up the system would say we have 1000 players playing this game when actually you only have 500. More math some of these 500 players actually owned and paid for 3 and some 4 now that 1000 increases even more yet you still only would have 500 people.

 

In wurm I was 3 account's alone till the silver hike up that tore me down to 1 account and 1 deed. I don't know many people in wurm who has 1 account. Everyone I've ever meet other than a new comer has 2+ account's. Add flying and jumping will cause many people to stop subbing and quit which will stop a lot of multi account's from being paid each month.

 

Flying and jumping works in MMO's that have massive content and quest that you have to try and keep up and get to in short periods of game time. Yet wurm don't have massive content and quest to even need flting and jumping as travel mechanics.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Arkonick

[SunnyD 4]

-1 jumping

-1 flying

 

 The only way I would even consider this is if templars and tower guards came equipped with longbows to enforce KOS. Also, remove ruling that KOS cannot cover a highway since flying would all but negate that. Even if these were in place I'd still probably -1.

 

edit: Even now I can imagine someone who is on KOS hovering just out of range and flooding local with templar/guard spam. No thanks. Some form of air defense system needs to go in place as well.

Edited March 21, 2014 by SunnyD

[BasicInfantry 6]

Would this mean that people would be able to grab things from the other side of walls also..... pfft dumb idea all around

 

No flying please! 

[Mordraug 2,542]

Other thing is perimeter fencing... you know, technically i still got room for dozens of horses but the whole "ratio" mechanic, gotta perimeter quite a few so...... 

 

If a griefer can fly into my perimeter fields and off them, I may as well invest in Final Fantasy instead.  Would either need to REALLY buff up the rules on legal enclosures and get really hardcore on enforcing them, or allow "0-perimeter" deeds so ppl like myself can absorb their perimeters (save your rethoric, *certain ppl*, i have no room to expand unless I get about 5 people to quit).

[Audrel 2,223]

Other thing is perimeter fencing... you know, technically i still got room for dozens of horses but the whole "ratio" mechanic, gotta perimeter quite a few so...... 

 

If a griefer can fly into my perimeter fields and off them, I may as well invest in Final Fantasy instead.  Would either need to REALLY buff up the rules on legal enclosures and get really hardcore on enforcing them, or allow "0-perimeter" deeds so ppl like myself can absorb their perimeters (save your rethoric, *certain ppl*, i have no room to expand unless I get about 5 people to quit).

 

 

Thirdly, there is a lot of discussion when it comes to the "legal enclosures" rule on the freedom servers. Adding flying would make it impossible to uphold that rule since you wouldn't even have to break a fence in order to land in someones enclosure. The rule already seems to create a lot of situations that end up in a grey zone of who is right or wrong which is undesirable so many on the team want it to go away anyways.

 

The thing is, Rolf said right here that he wants to do away with legal enclosures. There would be no beefing them up. There would be none and flying and jumping. Then, given that even if you give guard towers archers to shoot fliers down, not everyone can have a guard tower with them needing to be 50 tiles apart.

And I really don't want to hear about secure bubbles. The whole idea behind a deed and walls and fences is protection. Changes like this with the severe security bugs that are still in the game should be put on a very slow and very far back burner. As much as I hate being stuck in fences, I would rather get stuck in a fence twenty times per day than have some idiot with a griffon flying around doing every single "grey area" thing they can possibly get away with. Remove the 50 tile restriction when a tower is being placed on a deed and give them archers, put in a ruling for templars and guards that flying over is just fine but if you are not an ally or have no role set for you, landing inside a fenced area on a deed is going to be a real nightmare when you have templars and guards on you and your griffon, fix the bsb and other lockable issues, give a mayor the ability to unlock any lock on their deed regardless who locked it, and give us the ability to kill people on Freedom who do things we see as black and white (regardless of the gray most people seem to see) rule violations with a hunted tag or something that lasts 24 hours and every Tom, ######, and Harry can kill them on sight as well as make any tower guard that sees them try to kill them.

Seriously, if people want the ability to grief with impugnity on Freedom, give us the ability to kill them when you add more to the ways they can do it. As Mordraug said above, save your rhetoric. "Deed it or lose it" and "lock it or lose it" means absolutely nothing when your deed is open to anyone who wants to fly into it and the "grey area" is a headache to deal with. This will be legal enclosure headache many times over.

Note: The list above is intended as sarcasm. Everything on it is as much nonsense as being able to land in areas designated off limits on Freedom.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Audrel

[Arkonick 557]

Audrel you are pretty much saying turn freedom servers into pvp servers. If Rolf turns any form of freedom servers into pvp in any form me and a few hundred on all servers will unsub and stop playing wurm altogether. Wanting the ability to grief a griefer is the same as pvp.

 

For 1 Wurm is not that huge to even consider legal enclosures as a pain. Legal Enclosure should never be removed. Legal Enclosures is what helps wurm even stay afloat.

I'm going to explain what even makes me as a Fan attracted to wurm and what I hate with a passion about wurm.

 

My Pros for wurm online.

1. perk...Sandbox, Terraforming, Building, player shaped land, mobs to kill aka NPC's, Sailing on boats, and land travel carts, farming breeding of animals and the ability to socialize, and the long term goals to achieve your skills..AKA the Grind.

 

2. Cons.... In game virtual coin based on the real world dollar amount and exceeding that dollar amount. 6 silver coins cost 13.79 us that makes each silver coin in wurm cost 2.29 us per silver coin.

2. Cons....Slow Development, Low populated areas on server, Low variety of mobs on freedom server's to hunt for fun.

2. Cons to the average mmo player in wurm would include No quest, "No npc's to kill other than tower guards and this can only be done on a pvp server to boot." Real world money trade costing more than the average virtual coin they buy in other games way more.

The grind to get max skill taking years and hundreds of hours. Out dated fighting mechanics and animation in fighting like it was Made before EverQuest. I mean even EQ had faster fighting animations on it's launch and they got faster as the years went by.

 

And you want to start pulling in pvp mechanics on a pve server? Just say no to flying and no to jumping.

I mean heck flying and jumping isn't the fix for characters being stuck. Why a lot of you are wording your post as if these 2 things where the solution to getting stuck is beyond me. It was clearly stated collision was being worked on to fix characters getting stuck in walls and stuff. It was also clearly stated that because of the collision that would get added it would be possible in the future to allow jumping over walls and flying possible. Rolf never said they would get added he was asking for peoples thoughts on them point blank. But hundreds of post have been made as if Rolf had Iron Clad wrote it in gold and blood that these 2 features would come regardless of our feelings on the matter.

 

I Think Rolf has read enough to know this is something he needs to let go on a freedom pve server for a few years until further down the road some time that it might later be acceptable by the masses. But it has also show that this would also be good for least the epic server.

 

Not to mention the virtual coin in game is sky rocket high for a virtual coin. Which is something he needs to work on in the near soon future if he wants to keep a player base. I mean Every game company right now is starting to follow the trend of sandbox And are either working on and almost ready to launch or getting ready to start there project for the future of there company.

 

Let me tell you what I like about being able to jump in EQ Landmark right now.... Nothing it's a waste of time. I hate being made to have to jump up mountains. I mean really I want to see people jump up a mountain in real life. You would be so tired it wouldn't be funny and no one does it either. We normally hike up mountains and rock climb with ropes we don't jump. So yes jumping sucks. As far as flying it's been pointed out by several flying would make wurm look so small and take away from the adventure and danger of traveling. It would kill boats even more and the carts and wagons no to mention just plain old horse back riding in game. I mean on the ground you have to follow the terrain and turn a lot in the air theres nothing it's like taking a jet plain from cali to the east coast no turns but the approach to the next landing strip.

[Audrel 2,223]

Arkonick, I am with you. Really. The things I listed are things I know would never be done. I listed them to illustrate a point. Flying and landing inside of fences and gates that I locked to keep people out them is nonsense. All of the counters to protecting against that is nonsense as well. I used that list to make a point that if someone can land inside areas I designate off limits on Freedom, then this is what we need to make up for flying over a locked gate. I am totally against PvP of any kind on Freedom, that includes breaking into my secured areas with a flying mount or jumping off a pile of dirt to access the insides of things.

I should edit and note this is sarcastic. :-P Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Arkonick 557]

Np Audrel Yea That's how I took it. Glad you not for turning pve to pvp server's. But yea didn't see a clarify on the direction so I miss took it the wrong way.

[meiyeeer 78]

What if flying was implemented with not being able to land unless you are on non deeded land (and houses that aren't yours and etc). In addition, add the restriction that you cannot interact with anything while flying. Should help with flying in and out, perhaps provide some cool pictures of deeds, without causing problems.

[Flatline 9]

Do not implement flying without a 100% safe no fly zone over deed option in the roles of the deed.  Don't use guards to protect your airspace as guards suck these days.  Ensure it is a deed owner's right to tick the no fly zone.  As Rolf said, nothing stops anyone from landing in your enclosure...that includes deeded enclosures (totally enclosed deeds).  This should not be an option.

 

Another thing:  If someone jumps into my fence from a pile of dirt outside my wall, and he is inside my walled and locked deed and I put him kos, and he is killed in there bc he cannot get out, I WILL NOT unlock my gates for him to come get his body.  His stuff is forfeit then.  Just because he can jump my fence, it does not mean I lose kos rights on my deed.  

 

And why do away with legal enclosures?  Will wurm then stop advertising that it is a free to play game to start with?  It is clear that without any protection like legal enclosures, no free player can make any kind of living in wurm.  Scrap the free to try option completely then.  

 

So people will say deed it or lose it...really?  When people can fly into your deed you pay for and lock your bsbs and fsbs?  How is that safe?  

 

I can see how many many more problems will emerge to cause conflict between players, to the point where ppl will just walk.  To avoid this:

 

-1 to flying. -1 to jumping fences.

[Eyesgood 2,121]

I will mention 1 game and show you how easy it was to destroy it. Star Wars Galaxies. NGE Patch. Taking SWG to a FPS style game devastated it so bad they had to close the entire game.

 

Sorry, but that is incorrect.  NGE did not destroy SWG nor was it the reason for its demise.  Lucas refused to renew Sony's contract because of TOR and that is why they had to shut down SWG.  I know many players felt NGE was a death-knell for SWG, but coming from someone who played for several years - SWG was STILL an amazing game and would still be humming along had Lucas acted differently.

 

Head over here if you want to enjoy pre-NGE SWG all over again.  

 

OK, back to the OP topic...

Edited March 23, 2014 by Eyesgood

[Markcrow 107]

So, Rolf, why are you pretending to want feedback when it's clear from your post that you've already made up your mind and the whole thing in the works already? Yes, I'm glad you are fixing the fence bug, been caught many times, but giving people the ability to jump over the fences that people put up to keep others out? Yes, the enclosure rules need removed, or at least fixed, but giving people the ability to fly in and destroy what someone has taken so much effort to build and make? Yes, fix the bugs and problems but, no, don't add another bunch of headaches in the process. Thank you for fixing the broken things in the game, though.

[Arkonick 557]

NGE is what killed SWG not TOR or the contract coming to a end. Lucas wanted a FPS and asked SOE to turn SWG into one and the fan's hated every min of it cause it broke so much it wasn't even funny. I find it hard to believe you even played SWG or was even a fan if you don't even know this.

 

Once it was broke and thousands of fans quiting  days and weeks after the nge lucas had decided to take TOR which was suppose to be another console game and have Bio Ware turn it into a FPS style. They then let the contract with SOE finish and shut it down cause Lucas didn't want 2 mmo's just 1. Not to mention TOR has sucked since week one and is so hackable it isn't even funny cause Bio ware didn't even recode the console out of it so you can use simple crap like cheat engine now to hack the heck out of it.

 

I was one of those who gave TOR a try at launch and in 4 days I was maxed level and board out of my mind. Not to mention all those people hacking even after I brought up to the development team and even showed them in game the abilities of cheat engine they ignored it.

 

Lucas cut there own necks with NGE and there desire to have a fps game on the market.

[Shidoni 84]

I'd rather burn my deed and everything in it to the ground rather than have random people jumping in and out of my fences just to be douche bags.  I don't give a damn if they technically can't do anything.  I don't want them there.  That's why I have fences.  This game was advertised as providing a place for users to actually OWN land and do with it as they saw fit.  I joined this game with that in mind; a private space for myself and a few very close friends.  I have a large portion of my deed open to visitors.  Hell, we even built a community garden for everyone to enjoy.  Right in the middle of my deed.  But there are portions of the land I pay for that I want to be just mine, and if I can't have that, I have no reason to be here.

[Kammerz 69]

I'd rather burn my deed and everything in it to the ground rather than have random people jumping in and out of my fences just to be douche bags.  I don't give a damn if they technically can't do anything.  I don't want them there.  That's why I have fences.  This game was advertised as providing a place for users to actually OWN land and do with it as they saw fit.  I joined this game with that in mind; a private space for myself and a few very close friends.  I have a large portion of my deed open to visitors.  Hell, we even built a community garden for everyone to enjoy.  Right in the middle of my deed.  But there are portions of the land I pay for that I want to be just mine, and if I can't have that, I have no reason to be here.

Well I am social and I like people The more the merrier!

 

Flying sounds fun, albeit I'd prefer they fix current bugs and work on more important issues. Wurm needs to expand its player base and lore and by adding more added features which only long term players will ever achieve, i.e. the Body control to even fly a mount... It is not expanding nor creating revenue to continue its development. Anyone with any game development intellect would know this theory - the long term players will stick around, that's not the issue... they're already addicted. You want to be fixing the game up and making it more immersive experience for newbies. 

 

Flying +1 but please work on more important issues first Rolf. You're running a business, not a candy shop.

[Trepper 78]

the stuck in fence bug next to steep slopes why not simply make it not possible to build a fence right next to the base of a steep slope.  As for jumping and flying all are talking about players geting into enclosures heres a bigger problem.   The jump off a steep slope and land in a flat enclosure at the base.  They are now locked in.  OOOps masive GM calls I am traped and players bahsing their way through leagle enclosures to get out and releasing animals in the process.

[Arkonick 557]

Well looks like from new post from development team they will kill legal enclosures. So now soon it will be deed it or lose it for real. I see a ton of flame and a ton of people quitting Wurm cause people will be bypassing what was once legal enclosures by bashing down walls and raiding. Cause once they are no more legal it want be illegal to bash down them walls. So basically pvp with out the player killing will enter All pve Freedom servers.

 

If this is not there intention they sure don't know how to word anything correctly in a statement cause That's what I get from Barons recent post. I'm almost done now. My project has been put on hold and I'm waiting for final word and want be logging in much from this point now. Going to jump full steam into other games. 60 days left on my last deed.

 

I wish you well Rolf in the future, your a nice guy but with a horde of pvp Jack____ Leading you in the wrong direction with a horde of money grubbing idiots only here to steal from your wallet and anyone else in game, You are going to tank this game in the ground,

 

Points please Rolf pay attention.

1. Pay to win games are not popular.

2. PVP is not liked or mechanics by everyone.

3. It's bad to drastically change major mechanics you have had in place for more than 3 years, and some you have had in there for 8 years.

4. Real world money trade for virtual coin in a game is what kills a mmo and it's economy which is why other companies strive to discourage it in every way. Even now by going different routes to provide some sort of real money making like allowing players to start helping develop to make money. Your real world money trade system is just 1 of the reasons why wurm has not grown in population.

5. If you want to change things you should change this.

 

CHANGES you Should make.

1. No longer able to by game time in game using coin. All game time must be purchased from the wurm store.

2. Combine Chaos to epic and detach it from Freedom servers. or turn it so if you go to chaos you start over from scratch.

Having a crutch to level up then walk into pvp is just wrong. You want to pvp you need to level up in pvp period. Chaos should work like epic in the fact it's avatar is not shared with freedom servers.

3. Stop charging real dollar amounts for a in game virtual coin and go learn how this is done from other mmo's that have a system that works very well. SOE has a very good system and it makes them millions a year. Last thing any true gamer want's is to pour there hard earned money every week into a game paying for land they will never own and can be taken from them at any time with out warning. It doesn't bother people in other games cause the virtual coin does not represent a real dollar amount and can be earned in game and not bought online. Regardless of gold sellers.

4. If you are wanting Wurm to grow it want ever get big for some of the major reasons I just stated. Pvp can never mix with PVE players just like real world money trade can't mix with virtual coin. These are do's and don'ts in the industry these here are don'ts. You will always and only attract a select few and nothing over that. This is why people come in wurm try it then leave a month or 2 later regardless if people lend them a helping hand. Once they get a taste of how much it will cost them to stay grow and maintain what they have they leave cause it out weighs what it cost in other mmo's.

5. You have way more servers than you need with miles and miles of empty space on each server, yet you have people crying over legal enclosures and this dumb idiot thing deed it or lose it. The deed it or lose it is the pvp fans not the pve fans.

 

To close this I'm sick of the PVP Drama leaking into Freedom server's I'm even sicker they are allowed on the pve servers as a safe house and crutch for chaos and I'm sick of them trying to bleed mechanics into freedom. I hate PVP in my mmo with a passion. So I'm done with wurm.

[Audrel 2,223]

Where is the post, Arkonik?

[Ayes 3,715]

Well looks like from new post from development team they will kill legal enclosures. So now soon it will be deed it or lose it for real. I see a ton of flame and a ton of people quitting Wurm cause people will be bypassing what was once legal enclosures by bashing down walls and raiding. Cause once they are no more legal it want be illegal to bash down them walls. So basically pvp with out the player killing will enter All pve Freedom servers.

 

At this point in time we have no idea what RedBarons reference means concerning the current legal enclosure issue that the Dev team has been reviewing for changes. No doubt it will be of much interest to find out but until some further specifics are released by him concerning this subject I would not jump to the conclusions and response that you have here. Wurm is a game of patience in these circumstances as well, so I would suggest it best to await further details before making and decisions that will effect your future enjoyment of the game. This would be the approach that I am following.

 

Safe Travels

=Ayes=

[Arkonick 557]

It states:

 

That is a separate debate in itself and the GM team and us devs have been talking it over for quite some time to especially give the new players another form of viable safe place.

Everyone will be given time to adapt to the new change.

 

Now for the break down of this so those who don't understand these important lines.

 

"To especially give the new players another form of viable safe place." This means not a legal enclosure something new other wise they could just make a "legal enclosure" this was followed by: Everyone will be given time to adapt to the new change, which means you will have to deed your legal enclosure or lose it. There is nothing else one could do. cause your legal enclosure is not the new form they are talking about.

 

If he worded this wrong then he needs to go in more detail but to me it is right here in Black and White Crystal Clear.

[Audrel 2,223]

Yes, but that is not new. That was posted some time back. Legal enclosures, though I really find them basically useless and a myth anyway, are still the rule. There has not been, as far as I have seen or heard any indication of, any change to the current rule other than it has been stated the current rule is not desirable. I'm all for "secure bubbles" on Freedom but we can't put the cart before the horse here. "Deed it or lose it" is, was, and will be the rule of the land but I don't think they want a free for all on Freedom either. They are not just going to let people run riot smashing fences and killing cows then running newbies off a cliff like lemmings.

We have no idea what the new "form of viable safe place" might be. It could be a 5x5 stake or something that you can put by a small house. We can speculate it being anything. But that guess is as good as any.

And let's keep in mind, "Deed it or lose it" means land. Some people might argue that it means anything they can get their hands on but a majority of the people will tell you it means land. The most important thing any non-premium and non-deeded player can do is build a house and keep everything of value inside that house while offline.Make sure the house is locked. On Freedom, the QL of the lock doesn't matter. They can also load up their pockets and log off with it in inventory. Build a large cart and lock it. You don't need to be able to drive it to secure it. If you have animals, hitch them to the carts. A hitched cart can't be pushed away and hitched animals can't be stolen. If you have only one or two animals, drop some grass in your humble home and lock them inside while you are offline. Of course, you can't keep your animals in a house all the time but even if enclosures were not legally enforceable right this minute, I don't really think the GMs would let rampant cattle rustling happen to these players. I use sarcasm but I do not feel that things are "Doom! DOOM! The end is nigh!" If I did, I would not be playing Wurm and would not be in the forums debating on its future course. If my sarcasm has influenced you to feel this way about the current state of the game, I apologize. My intention is to be read not to sow fear and distrust.

[Ellietrap 53]

-1 to flying, +1 to jumping.

 

-1 to removing legal enclosures entirely. New players should have some way to protect their stuff without being forced into a village. Maybe reworked rules or an alternative setup to make things clearer and easier to uphold.