Poll: Making Pristine And Release Connected To The Freedom Cluster?

[Kegan 3,926]

There is also nothing wrong with you guys that have this tight-knit alliance/community to boycott the new merchants on the older servers and only buy from your alliance members. I have people that i buy from that are more expensive than other players prices but i do so because either they are more reliable or i respect them as players/friends there in nothing wrong with that. 

[Italus 0]

Nope. Not now. And i think this should be a Pristine and Release players only poll.

[Ryamu 80]

or you could add a new server or two and attach to Pristine/Release as a new cluster lol

[Crack 408]

Nice propaganda, now let me bring you back to reality... The reason people do not want the merge is primarily due to the huge discrepancy between skills. We do no want to be competing with players who have 5+ years of skills and resources, versus not even a years skills for the players of pristine/release.

And "Kruggan even the prices out"? Whilst i have a lot of respect for him as a crafter, you do realise he was one of those keeping the prices up and has only recently reduced them to bring them more inline with my prices, which are the cheapest on the cluster.

If this was purely about money then i would simply become a leech and buy up every trader deed around.

 

Most of my villagers make good money ingame to pay for the prem time ect and thier skills are nothing compared to mine.

People do have a right to cheaper better gear if they want it, your just worried that having lower skills than say i, you'd become disposable.

 

Just because i can make ql 90 weapons doesnt mean im going to come over to pristine and release and flood you with cheap weapons... because im really not, like most others id rather improve my deeds and have a general laugh with my friends.

[Coastis 321]

Not really.  I know several very high blacksmiths and carpenters.  Mining and Woodcutting has been there a while too.  Not sure on digging but not many really brag on being able to dig a bigger hole.  Several nice priests.  I haven't seen alot of Fo weapon enchants yet.  Not sure if those are being kept private or what yet.  Jewelsmiths have been there for a bit too.  But as far as the rest yea.  Maybe not in the same sheer numbers as on the other servers yet but yea the skills are there.

 

there are 4 90+ blacksmiths that i know of, 1 single 90+ carp, wooductting/mining not certain on, i know we have some very high miners. Digging, yeah, we'll skip over that one Priest wise, there is one very, very nice Vyn priest skills wise however nobody else is anywhere near him and he has the support of some very experienced older players. JS i don't think there is anyone over 75 and probably only a handfull at around 50.

 

The skills are very much not there.

[Crack 408]

there are 4 90+ blacksmiths that i know of, 1 single 90+ carp, wooductting/mining not certain on, i know we have some very high miners. Digging, yeah, we'll skip over that one Priest wise, there is one very, very nice Vyn priest skills wise however nobody else is anywhere near him and he has the support of some very experienced older players. JS i don't think there is anyone over 75 and probably only a handfull at around 50.

 

The skills are very much not there.

 

The Celebration server has one high end weapon smith... one but you dont see everyone there building walls and screaming we cant be connected to Exo we dont have the skills.

Instead people are happy they can escape to Exo and seek out other crafters find the best deal for them and go with it, Otherwise theyd be stuck with me... and noone wants that especially me

[Coastis 321]

Most of my villagers make good money ingame to pay for the prem time ect and thier skills are nothing compared to mine.

People do have a right to cheaper better gear if they want it, your just worried that having lower skills than say i, you'd become disposable.

 

Just because i can make ql 90 weapons doesnt mean im going to come over to pristine and release and flood you with cheap weapons... because im really not, like most others id rather improve my deeds and have a general laugh with my friends.

 

If anything, i stand to personally profit from a merge as i can get my hands on resources cheaper and in far greater numbers and you guys have a much more buoyant market for rares over there... I assure you even if i was never to sell another crafted item i would still enjoy my wurm time

[Drayka 485]

Sorry for being so ignorant but what will linking pristine change?

I'd like to clarify this. Nothing will change except the way we view it. But changing the way we view it IS equivalent to changing EVERYTHING.

I've been using the example of PvP vs PvE to try to illustrate a difference that is otherwise difficult to perceive.

The tone of this thread is debating whether the new cluster is 'old' enough to be joined with the rest of the old cluster. Compare this to asking whether the old cluster has abandoned its parochial attitudes enough to join the new cluster.

This is about a perceived difference, a desire to be different. Veteran or newbie we joined the new cluster because it was 'new'. New means it hasn't all been done already. New means it's not about walking into something established. New means that what was true before doesn't have to be true here. Old means comfortable, safe, established, and full of old attitudes, old ways ways of doing things, tried and tested, nothing to discover.

This ISN'T about a major difference or a major impact. Unfortunately. We've had so little time to develop our own ways and whys for doing things that there just isn't a big difference yet. The difference is where the new cluster WILL be, given enough time to go it alone, the chance to have a different future than the old cluster.

Opening the new cluster DID affect the old cluster. People left the old cluster in droves looking for something new and different, and some of them firmly believe they have found something new and different, and don't WANT it to change back.

This is effectively a case of 'us and them', and because there ISN'T much difference yet, the old cluster is being demonised to try to create a difference where in fact, the real difference is difficult to quantify.

Countries have waged bloody warfare over the right to independence and to become separate from the old and established. New cluster is a colony of the old cluster, with many people giving up everything they knew to go there and start a new life. See the american war of independence from the british empire.

This isn't about what's measurable except in the attitudes of people. If new cluster had been given different mechanics that favoured the pioneer spirit, this debate wouldn't seem so intangible. This WASN'T planned in from the beginning, but neither was any colonial rebellion of independence.

The ONLY difference is that the new cluster HAS been isolated, in the same way that all new colonies are isolated until they become productive enough to be considered developed enough to be useful to the empire. Predictably the empire wants to absorb the colony as an extension of itself, whereas the colony, having suffered and struggled alone feel they have the right to be considered an independent.

The difference, is in people's heads. In their motivation, in their reasons. We all joined Wurm because it was an escape from real world of old and established, to carve out a new life for ourselves with our bare if virtual hands, free from the red tape and established technological industries and police states to go back to a world of self sufficiency and master craftsmen. We joined new cluster because it wasn't some vast metropolis, instead it was pioneer country, as Wurm was originally. In our heads, PvP is the war-torn lands, and the old cluster is the old empire that we had good reasons to leave.

What you are effectively asking, is whether the new cluster is so ruined as to be indistinguishable from the old cluster to the people living there, that it really doesn't matter to them anymore if we are considered separate. The fact that there is little difference except in people's heads, just lends an air of doom to it all. The only reason we will be absorbed into the old is because we failed to be different ENOUGH to warrant our independence 'in the eyes of god'. And so some are desperately pleading for an extension, for a second chance to get it right, while others are stating confidently and with conviction that we are different and we want to stay separate.

The biggest difference between the old and the new is that everyone on the new had to start from scratch. The veterans had to walk away from what was, and their high level skills, in order to come here. That was always the entry requirement, to have to give something up to be able to come here, and some managed to leave behind more than just high stats. Some really did have a do-over which left behind old attitudes as well as old privileges. We're in Wurm to build a better world, and it's a learning curve that can't be measured in stats or coin or structures. We're learning to be better people, to abandon our old version of what we want and discover something new, even if it can only exist here and not in the real world.

The longer you play this game, the more it changes you, the more it affects how you view the world, and the more you realise it didn't have to be this way. We're escaping a world that doesn't listen to us or let us do anything, to a place we shape by our actions and more importantly, the reason we do things.

Coming to the new cluster was a rite of passage, a measurable act of giving up privileges in order to be here. That's what makes the new cluster special and unique. Joining the clusters takes away that identity. It isn't a big difference compared to some, but it's an important one.

Ask not if the new cluster wants to give up on being pioneers, as if we can't manage alone perfectly well thank you very much. Ask only why the players on the old cluster aren't prepared to make even a token sacrifice in order to be here too. Because from the perspective of the new cluster, the old cluster just wants a free ticket to a game upgrade because they aren't satisfied with what they already have, or aren't prepared to give up anything to be here as we have.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Drayka

[Ryamu 80]

Just remember after this link happens lol, go place merchants at Radiance Harbor on Pristine xP there's none there so no competition and it's centralized with tunnels to the open sea too! This way it'd stop the whiners and give those near Rad Harbor a chance at good deals for better prices than what's at Blossom, have seen the ones in Blossom, trust me some prices there suck badly but there are a few good deals too. Me though, that's still quite a travel from Rad Harbor so I'd rather not go there. 

 

16 open market stalls + mall space, yeah we have plenty of room for older merchant players to put their merchants there. I'm ok with that as I'm not experienced enough with a high lvl priest to enchant my tools there or anything else so it could solve many problems that others despise from the link. Me personally, idc much for the link as I'll have the locations I want deeded completely fenced off at the minimal (one already is currently working with the hillside for neighbor's deed too) so yeah no loss to me. And if the merchants are placed here, well then no one who buys from Blossom is actually losing much since they prolly won't travel south anyway. But I can say being the only area with a trader and merchants in the center (SE area) it's a great place for em. By no means does that say deed over the newbies who've been helped to settle around Rad harbor though, but there's still a crap load of empty land near us on the lakefront or the mountain there so I don't see why so many would complain.

[Coastis 321]

I'd like to clarify this. Nothing will change except the way we view it. But changing the way we view it IS equivalent to changing EVERYTHING.

I've been using the example of PvP vs PvE to try to illustrate a difference that is otherwise difficult to perceive.

The tone of this thread is debating whether the new cluster is 'old' enough to be joined with the rest of the old cluster. Compare this to asking whether the old cluster has abandoned its parochial attitudes enough to join the new cluster.

This is about a perceived difference, a desire to be different. Veteran or newbie we joined the new cluster because it was 'new'. New means it hasn't all been done already. New means it's not about walking into something established. New means that what was true before doesn't have to be true here. Old means comfortable, safe, established, and full of old attitudes, old ways ways of doing things, tried and tested, nothing to discover.

This ISN'T about a major difference or a major impact. Unfortunately. We've had so little time to develop our own ways and whys for doing things that there just isn't a big difference yet. The difference is where the new cluster WILL be, given enough time to go it alone, the chance to have a different future than the old cluster.

Opening the new cluster DID affect the old cluster. People left the old cluster in droves looking for something new and different, and some of them firmly believe they have found something new and different, and don't WANT it to change back.

This is effectively a case of 'us and them', and because there ISN'T much difference yet, the old cluster is being demonised to try to create a difference which is too subtle to quantify.

Countries have waged bloody warfare over the right to independence and to become separate from the old and established. New cluster is a colony of the old cluster, with many people giving up everything they knew to go there and start a new life. See the american war of independence from the british empire.

This isn't about what's measurable except in the attitudes of people. If new cluster had been given difference mechanics that favoured the pioneer spirit, this debate wouldn't seem so intangible. This WASN'T planned in from the beginning, but neither was any colonial rebellion of independence.

The ONLY difference is that the new cluster HAS been isolated, in the same way that all new colonies are isolated until they become productive enough to be considered developed enough to be useful to the empire. Predictably the empire wants to absorb the colony as an extension of itself, whereas the colony, having suffered and struggled alone feel they have the right to be considered an independent.

The difference, is in people's heads. In their motivation, in their reasons. We all joined Wurm because it was an escape from real world of old and established, to carve out a new life for ourselves with our bare if virtual hands, free from the red tape and established technological industries and police states to go back to a world of self sufficiency and master craftsmen. We joined new cluster because it wasn't some vast metropolis, instead it was pioneer country, as Wurm was originally. In our heads, PvP is the war-torn lands, and the old cluster is the old empire that we had good reasons to leave.

What you are effectively asking, is whether the new cluster is so ruined as to be indistinguishable from the old cluster to the people living there, that it really doesn't matter to them anymore if we are considered separate. The fact that there is little difference except in people's heads, just lends an air of doom to it all. The only reason we will be absorbed into the old is because we failed to be different ENOUGH to warrant our independence 'in the eyes of god'. And so some are desperately pleading for an extension, for a second chance to get it right, while others are stating confidently and with conviction that we are different and we want to stay separate.

The biggest difference between the old and the new is that everyone on the new had to start from scratch. The veterans had to walk away from what was, and their high level skills, in order to come here. That was always the entry requirement, to have to give something up to be able to come here, and some managed to leave behind more than just high stats. Some really did have a do-over which left behind old attitudes as well as old privileges. We're in Wurm to build a better world, and it's a learning curve that can't be measured in stats or coin or structures. We're learning to be better people, to abandon our old version of what we want and discover something new, even if it can only exist here and not in the real world.

The longer you play this game, the more it changes you, the more it affects how you view the world, and the more you realise it didn't have to be this way. We're escaping a world that doesn't listen to us or let us do anything, to a place we shape by our actions and more importantly, the reason we do things.

Coming to the new cluster was a rite of passage, a measurable act of giving up privileges in order to be here. That's what makes the new cluster special and unique. Joining the clusters takes away that identity. It isn't a big difference compared to some, but it's an important one.

Ask not if the new cluster wants to give up on being pioneers, as if we can't manage alone perfectly well thank you very much. Ask only why the players on the old cluster aren't prepared to make even a token sacrifice in order to be here too. Because from the perspective of the new cluster, the old cluster just wants a free ticket to a game upgrade because they aren't satisfied with what they already have, or aren't prepared to give up anything to be here as we have.

 

To you sir, i doff my hat. An elegant post ('m out of +1's for the day or you'd have them all!)

 

Just remember after this link happens lol, go place merchants at Radiance Harbor on Pristine xP there's none there so no competition and it's centralized with tunnels to the open sea too! This way it'd stop the whiners and give those near Rad Harbor a chance at good deals for better prices than what's at Blossom, have seen the ones in Blossom, trust me some prices there suck badly but there are a few good deals too. Me though, that's still quite a travel from Rad Harbor so I'd rather not go there. 

 

16 open market stalls + mall space, yeah we have plenty of room for older merchant players to put their merchants there. I'm ok with that as I'm not experienced enough with a high lvl priest to enchant my tools there or anything else so it could solve many problems that others despise from the link. Me personally, idc much for the link as I'll have the locations I want deeded completely fenced off at the minimal (one already is currently working with the hillside for neighbor's deed too) so yeah no loss to me. And if the merchants are placed here, well then no one who buys from Blossom is actually losing much since they prolly won't travel south anyway. But I can say being the only area with a trader and merchants in the center (SE area) it's a great place for em. By no means does that say deed over the newbies who've been helped to settle around Rad harbor though, but there's still a crap load of empty land near us on the lakefront or the mountain there so I don't see why so many would complain.

I doff my hat in solemn commemoration to the hundreds of newbies who will be perimetered and forced out of their lands in the first week of this merge, may Vynora watch over their souls.

[Amadee 1,543]

I doff my hat in solemn commemoration to the hundreds of newbies who will be perimetered and forced out of their lands in the first week of this merge, may Vynora watch over their souls.

 

pftt. Exaggerate much?  Oh yeah, hundreds of people are going to immediately rush (couple hours sailing time) over there and perimeter (spend 10s for deed form) over hundreds of newbies.   lol.  If it happens even once, I'd be very surprised.

 

The borders don't have to be open for that to happen.  If anyone wanted to do it they would have done so already with a new alt.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Amadee

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

The idea that there will be a mass move to the new servers to take over is laughable.  If they were brand new, empty servers you would be right, but it has been inhabited for quite a while now, and the best land has already been taken.  What most of us from the old clusters see is more customers for our goods, and that's about it.  Wait for a truly new server to open and watch the mass migration then.

[Ryamu 80]

pftt. Exaggerate much?  Oh yeah, hundreds of people are going to immediately rush (couple hours sailing time) over there and perimeter (spend 10s for deed form) over hundreds of newbies.   lol.  If it happens even once, I'd be very surprised.

 

The borders don't have to be open for that to happen.  If anyone wanted to do it they would have done so already with a new alt.

 

lol well said. No one will bother but yeah there's a bunch of land on the mountain's edge and lakefront just not right at my harbor or the Fort next to it. I'm very welcoming to any who'd want to place merchants and settle nearby though, may even accept a few who don't plan to have deeds on Pristine into our Fort Village by the harbor so they can monitor their merchant better lol. Personally I see it as a plus if anyone puts their merchant there because it will help the harbor regardless. Besides to that exaggeration haha, we don't have but maybe 4 newbies who've settled by us thanks to our helping them get started. And most of which have been deeded over by Rad harbor so they can be safe from wall decay. The other two are on the top part of the highway there where our deed won't be expanded to, but they're still a part of Radiance just opted to live separate.

[Kadore 926]

That is simply not true..there are a few 80's and the rare 90's around..these people grinded like mad to get there and are most definitely not a reflection of the average skill level on the server. To make it fair average the skills per server and compare them.

 Besides WS and channeling, even without grinding like mad it's easy to get a 90 skill within 3 months time, calling people delusional for thinking otherwise or making things up makes me wonder if we're playing the same game.

 

 Channeling can be time consuming but with hfc pan loading and sermons, soul depth and faith are far from difficult to get up there, the amount of priests sitting with no premium would be a better reason why enchants are more difficult to find. 

[Amadee 1,543]

Sorry for being so ignorant but what will linking pristine change?

 

It won't really change anything.  The borders will be joined with the rest of the cluster, same as pristine is now joined with release.  People will be able to sail to and from all the serves as you do now between the two.  Your communities will remain the same for the most part.  Some people may decide to move there from another server.  Some people there may decide to move to one of the older servers.  

 

All of the servers have their communities.  Being connected at the borders doesn't change that.  The smaller servers have smaller communities, yes, but even on Inde as large as it is, people still have smaller communities of their neighbors. It's human nature.

 

Trade and mail will be possible so that if you want to buy/sell/trade with someone on one of the other servers, you can.  If you prefer to buy/sell/trade only within your own community as you do now, you can still do that. 

 

A small handful of people are trying to scare you guys for reasons of their own, which I don't pretend to know.  But I suspect it has a lot to do with some of the "top dogs" losing their stranglehold on the local economy.

[Kadore 926]

pftt. Exaggerate much?  Oh yeah, hundreds of people are going to immediately rush (couple hours sailing time) over there and perimeter (spend 10s for deed form) over hundreds of newbies.   lol.  If it happens even once, I'd be very surprised.

 

The borders don't have to be open for that to happen.  If anyone wanted to do it they would have done so already with a new alt.

I've assembled my Fleet and await Rolf to flip the switch ... although after 15 - 20 minutes I'll turn back around and remember why I never sail anywhere.

[Coastis 321]

pftt. Exaggerate much?  Oh yeah, hundreds of people are going to immediately rush (couple hours sailing time) over there and perimeter (spend 10s for deed form) over hundreds of newbies.   lol.  If it happens even once, I'd be very surprised.

I should probably have included an emoticon or such to illustrate that it was somewhat tongue in cheek

The borders don't have to be open for that to happen.  If anyone wanted to do it they would have done so already with a new alt.

And they're quite welcome to come and make an alt and join us on the new cluster anytime they want, just like many have already done.... Or is there another reason that is stopping you?

[Kegan 3,926]

If anything, i stand to personally profit from a merge as i can get my hands on resources cheaper and in far greater numbers and you guys have a much more buoyant market for rares over there... I assure you even if i was never to sell another crafted item i would still enjoy my wurm time

So whats the problem then? 

 

it does not matter if they go with the poll it has stood at 2/3 yes for the whole thing so just do what you have to do to get ready is all i can say. 

Edited November 9, 2013 by Kegan

[Kadore 926]

I should probably have included an emoticon or such to illustrate that it was somewhat tongue in cheek

And they're quite welcome to come and make an alt and join us on the new cluster anytime they want, just like many have already done.... Or is there another reason that is stopping you?

So people are welcome to join your Elite server, but only as a new alt and not a player that might be on par with some of the top skilled players?

[Drayka 485]

So people are welcome to join your Elite server, but only as a new alt and not a player that might be on par with some of the top skilled players?

 

We have our own top skilled players. We watched them skill up, maybe even sold them stuff to help them skillgrind. We have forged relationships with them, been helped by them as we have helped them. Veterans aren't unwelcome, but why can't you make a new alt here like they did ?

[Ryamu 80]

It won't really change anything.  The borders will be joined with the rest of the cluster, same as pristine is now joined with release.  People will be able to sail to and from all the serves as you do now between the two.  Your communities will remain the same for the most part.  Some people may decide to move there from another server.  Some people there may decide to move to one of the older servers.  

 

All of the servers have their communities.  Being connected at the borders doesn't change that.  The smaller servers have smaller communities, yes, but even on Inde as large as it is, people still have smaller communities of their neighbors. It's human nature.

 

Trade and mail will be possible so that if you want to buy/sell/trade with someone on one of the other servers, you can.  If you prefer to buy/sell/trade only within your own community as you do now, you can still do that. 

 

A small handful of people are trying to scare you guys for reasons of their own, which I don't pretend to know.  But I suspect it has a lot to do with some of the "top dogs" losing their stranglehold on the local economy.

I see it as you do. There's not really a point to getting scared over it since older players have already built a fortune worth of deeds on the older servers. Were they anything like me they'd not care to move. I would only use it as an opportunity to expand merchandise to the other servers which isn't a big deal anyhow since there's not much merchant materials on Pristine anyway. There's basically Blossom's market and a very few merchants elsewhere. 1-2 other traders and maybe a smaller market on some island only half the population would even travel to go to if even that. Linking them opens the borders, yeah it could bring other players, but it's not likely as most would just want to put a merchant or two in populated locations to boost their sales. That's also why I have a market build in the center of the mainland lol it needs merchants idc whether they are old or new ones.

[Kadore 926]

We have our own top skilled players. We watched them skill up, maybe even sold them stuff to help them skillgrind. We have forged relationships with them, been helped by them as we have helped them. Veterans aren't unwelcome, but why can't you make a new alt here like they did ?

I have alts there, I've also seen a few of the " top skilled " players sold, as well as gold, drake, scale etc for rl money, I fail to see how the Utopia that the Pristine and Release servers are differ from any of the others, a lot of it's already been picked clean.

 

As for server Identity, most people carry a bit of pride to their own server, I know Exo and Deli folks get mad when I pick on their servers.

[Drayka 485]

So if you're here, you're here. If you're not, nothing stops you from creating an alt here. The strongest argument FOR joining the servers is that it WON'T change anything. So why change anything if it won't change anything ? Leave it alone.

 

And on behalf of those who say it will change something for the worse, PLEASE leave it alone.

 

Why does it have to be inevitable ? This is like saying the government will do what it likes regardless of what the opinion is, so why fight it ? And THAT'S defeatist apathy, followed by trying to make the best of a bad situation.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Drayka

[Amadee 1,543]

We have our own top skilled players. We watched them skill up, maybe even sold them stuff to help them skillgrind. We have forged relationships with them, been helped by them as we have helped them. Veterans aren't unwelcome, but why can't you make a new alt here like they did ?

 

But that's the thing.  You would still have your community and the neighbors you've forged relationships with.  Why do you think that "veterans" are going to converge on you and somehow change that?  How could they possibly change that even if they were so inclined?  And why would they want to?  It's a great big world, and it takes a very long time to get anywhere.

 

Having the borders open simply opens up a wider world. That's what makes wurm special. 

Edited November 9, 2013 by Amadee

[Drayka 485]

Why fix what isn't broken ? If the old cluster really is going to ignore the new cluster being joined, then what is the yes vote except 'it doesn't hurt me personally'. If it is more than that, then what is so important that it need to override everyone that voted no ?

 

 

Having the borders open simply opens up a wider world. That's what makes wurm special. 

 

That's what makes the OLD CLUSTER special.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Drayka